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RE: Tech Mage Caster OP!

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11/11/2013 20:35:32   
Mother1
Member

@ deathguard

if we go by that definition they just about every build in the game would be overpowered. Cause every with every build you need to use a certain build or type or types to beat them.
Epic  Post #: 126
11/11/2013 20:40:55   
DeathGuard
Member

quote:

For something to be deemed overpowered, it is either the best choice in a disproportionate number of situations (marginalising other choices) and/or excessively hard to counter by the opponent compared to the effort required to use it.
It restrains other options, in this case, possible counter builds, which means it is either unbeatable or really hard to counter by the foe confronting it. Pretty much what it really means.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 127
11/11/2013 21:10:35   
lionblades
Member

@Deathgaurd
quote:

Sadly I don't post foolish posts like you do in every thread without having a base and reference

First calm down. And also your definition means nothing to ED. Before update I beat str BM with high smoke BH more than I could lose (similar to Deathnightmares BH build) and people say that was OP but according to your definition it was neither hard to counter nor much effort. It called natural counters to that build. One build may have a hard time against another but loses to a different build. Not really "restraining counters" when there clearly still is a counter. Based on your definition, nothing in ED is OP nor ever was since there was always a counter (no matter how small) since your definition GOTTEN exactly from previous post is:
quote:

OP means something unbeatable

Which is false. Doubt you have seen caster mages with max ultimate during early stages of ED they could be beaten using BH str massacre but still were still OP.

So before you start calling my posts foolish, stop regurgitating definitions from "Wikipedia" (which I must admit is a very trustworthy website). And obviously a skill could be called OP relative to the other skills, which does not that fit your post previously.
Imagine TM gets a skill that gives them full hp every time no energy cost. That is clearly an OP skill relative to the other classes skills (and you said on previous posts skills cannot be OP).
AQW  Post #: 128
11/11/2013 21:35:27   
GearzHeadz
Member

@Deathguard, you realize that the definition you put up supported my definition, right?
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 129
11/11/2013 21:38:13   
Pemberton
Member
 

 I doubt caster mage is OP. I see them on leader boards and their % is average.
Post #: 130
11/11/2013 21:40:06   
goldslayer1
Member

Battery back up is like old Static charge on steroids.
no wait, not steroids, bane venom, that's more like it.

but as long as classes are the primary focus of balance, i dont see balance happening.


the problem with ED's class system is that it supports having OP skills in a class in order to balance it.

but when the skill is nerfed down, the whole class becomes under powered. because it makes the class reliant on that single skill.
it also works the opposite way.

an example would be static charge how it kept receiving buffs, where it eventually lead CHs to get plasma armor, causing a whole new array of balance problems.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/11/2013 21:44:55 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 131
11/11/2013 21:42:37   
GearzHeadz
Member

All they need to do is make it give less ep back. Really simple solution.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 132
11/11/2013 21:52:07   
DeathGuard
Member

@Gearz: Not at all, because it is OP if it can't be beaten in all possible situations, not just certain situations, which is the aspect where you're wrong.

@lionblades: I'm calmed down, you're the one posting blatant stuff, saying I made up the definition when it is on a webpage. Second, you don't define with your power or someone's power what's OP. You can define something is OP with calculations and data that prove something dominates any other option and is balance-breaking.
My definition of OP is not false, the definition you have learned isn't the correct reason why from your perspective it is wrong.

quote:

Do not use personal experience or opinions as evidence. What happens when you play, will not happen to anyone else.

Taken from How to: Balance ( Part Two) Thread Pretty much what you shouldn't do Lion.

I'm not regurgitating definitions, maybe you should stop trying to force out your opinions and tried to analyze and comprehend other opinions.
I will let you call what you want classes or skills what you want, no matter on continuing explaining something that's out of topic and shadowing the main point: That TM is supposedly "OP" lol

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/11/2013 21:55:14 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 133
11/11/2013 21:54:50   
GearzHeadz
Member

@Deathuard, it doesn't say it can't be beaten in the definition you supplied... it says excessively hard to counter. Which was my point, its op.

< Message edited by GearzHeadz -- 11/11/2013 21:55:27 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 134
11/11/2013 21:59:33   
DeathGuard
Member

@Gearz:
They are two situations were something can be Oped:
1)When it can't be defeated, since it marginalizes the other options and is balance-breaking
2)When it is excessively hard to counter.

I don't recall a skill being hard to counter, yes it is too strong but it isn't that hard to counter. This also works if you want to say TM is OP, which isn't.

If you say the skill is OP, give me proof of why it is "OP", why it is so hard to counter? Pretty much all you need to write.
e.g. You got the right skills to drain its energy independently which class you're, if you don't want to use such, you can't say it is hard to counter if you don't try to.

It is able to be counter with several forms, energy draining cores and skills, but I do agree it is too strong, but not OP at all.

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/11/2013 22:02:56 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 135
11/11/2013 22:02:24   
GearzHeadz
Member

Then you haven't been CH or BH, the hunter classes energy drain moves are EMP, which costs energy, if you run out of energy... Bam, techie/TCM keeps recharging their energy, outlasting you.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 136
11/11/2013 22:04:19   
goldslayer1
Member

another example of OP is when 2 skills are basically the same type of skill, have the same costs and requirement, yet one is still much more effective than the other.

for example Maul Vs stun nades.

Maul is OP compared to stun grenade.
it does more damage, costs less, and can have a higher stun chance (just like it can have a lower one aswell)
and it ignores defense. (although to be fair to maul, it is also blockable)

yet we dont say anything about maul, because merc is a terrible class.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/11/2013 22:05:36 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 137
11/11/2013 22:04:26   
DeathGuard
Member

@Gearz: You just dig your hole in this argument, take a look at my character page. I have been a BH for about 2-3 months now, and I have been able to counter such builds, not so effectively, but it wasn't too hard to do if you actually try to adjust your build until they make the balance changes coming in the next updates.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 138
11/11/2013 22:05:44   
lionblades
Member

@Deathgaurd
You are constantly contradicting yourself there: Excessively hard and unbeatable are 2 different meanings and I notice you just made 2 different sides of the definition OP.
quote:

You can define something is OP with calculations and data that prove something dominates any other option and is balance-breaking.

Considering your definition does not have data or numbers that mean your definition does not prove OP. Contradicting.

Also, I fail to see how you do not acknowledge skills can not be OP as you said in your previous post.
quote:

Imagine TM gets a skill that gives them full hp every time no energy cost. That is clearly an OP skill relative to the other classes skills (and you said on previous posts skills cannot be OP).
My previous statement
AND it can be used in context as well just like Goldslayer did in his previous post.
quote:

I don't recall a skill being hard to counter

AND another: EMP is a counter to assimilation, but now that TM has Battery, they have too much energy inputs so taking away energy becomes a lot more harder now that TM has 2 skills to counter energy draining skills/ cores.
AQW  Post #: 139
11/11/2013 22:16:27   
DeathGuard
Member

@lion: I never mentioned something was op, I mention what requirements it had to met to be considered as OP, which don't need calculations since it is in general, and not particularly just talking about ED, rather the global definition in the gaming environment.

It can be counter, it isn't that hard and let me give you some few situations.
It can be counter with Frost Shards cores.
It can be counter with EMP
It can be counter with Static Smash
It can be counter with Energy Parasite
It can be counter with Assimilation
It can be counter with Energy Rain
It can be counter with Energy Shot
It can be counter with FrostBite
It can be counter with Piston Punch
It can be counter (indirectly) With Pyro Fly's effect.

So many forms of countering such skills and you still find it that hard?

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/11/2013 22:17:48 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 140
11/11/2013 22:17:29   
GearzHeadz
Member

@Deathguard
My point was, how is my counter is suppose to work when I run out of EP to counter them with? It will be of no problem to them, since they can regenerate for free every 4 turns.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 141
11/11/2013 22:21:13   
goldslayer1
Member

lol im just having a laugh reading this with all these "counters"

its like im back in 2005 playing yu-gi-oh again.

worse part about mage is that assimilation makes this all worse.
AQW Epic  Post #: 142
11/11/2013 22:22:11   
DeathGuard
Member

@Gearz: Then find a way out to counter them again, I normally smoke once, emp x2-3 depending on the situation and use the pyro fly effect to give an edge of advantage in the battle. I can't tell you it can be counter in every situation but it can be deal with. Tanking them with shields, emp, dealing low damage and stacking rage to kill them is the best strategy I have found to be effective.

@Goldslayer1: Balance changes are meant to fix Battery Backup, it has been mentioned they were making fixes for the broken things in the recent balance update. It won't stay the same which is the thing people can't understand.

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/11/2013 22:24:04 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 143
11/11/2013 22:22:26   
GearzHeadz
Member

Exactly, takes energy away from you so you can't even counter. Maybe the mercs can, and other mages.

@Deathguard, and when they outlast you and you run out of energy? Most of the techies strategy at the moment is simply outlasting the opponent, while draining them. They don't have to worry about ep, because they can gain it back in 1 move.

< Message edited by GearzHeadz -- 11/11/2013 22:23:50 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 144
11/11/2013 22:27:41   
goldslayer1
Member

the only energy drainers that i could see being effective are EMP, and static smash.

using cores for an energy drain would be a waste of a turn.
the energy taken from the core is not high enough, and the mage can end up using assimilation to get all that energy back, while taking energy from you, dealing damage, and wasting your turn.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/11/2013 22:30:44 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 145
11/11/2013 22:28:26   
DeathGuard
Member

@Gearz: As mentioned before, not every time you can counter such builds, just as you can't counter other builds like Strength - Support based builds. It is natural some builds exploit your weakness in battle without having the intention of having you as the unique target of their build.
Also, this skill will be revamped and it will be for the better which probably will make us happy not having to try to counter with energy drains.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 146
11/11/2013 22:30:17   
GearzHeadz
Member

@Deathguard, your class shouldn't have to be what makes you susceptible to another.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 147
11/11/2013 22:31:49   
lionblades
Member

@Deathguard
Ty for listing more counters supporting my arguments;
quote:

So many forms of countering such skills and you still find it that hard?

Nope, what I did was list a specifics class' counters (in this case BH your own class) which is way more realistic than listing all the classes counters which is what you did. In a real battle a BH can not use Assimilation obviously.
Many counters yes, but only a few per class.

Edit: I also notice you have been editing your arguments after I have posted lol

< Message edited by lionblades -- 11/11/2013 22:37:05 >
AQW  Post #: 148
11/11/2013 22:33:31   
DeathGuard
Member

@Gearz: I never said class what made you susceptible to another, I said builds which are way different because they are strength CHs, BHs, BMs, TMs, Mercs, TLMS just as support builds and tank builds for the same classes. I never used an specific class to determine which build belong to each one
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 149
11/11/2013 22:36:47   
GearzHeadz
Member

You realize BH is the only class now without a way of regaining energy for free right? The only skill that bounty hunter has that regains energy is reflex boost, which also costs energy. Kind of a bad cycle.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 150
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