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RE: Would we have more players if we omit loses?

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12/15/2013 10:23:57   
Remorse
Member

@ Bones
I do agree that they have changed their focus,

But I don't even think it is the majority...


Have you noticed that ever since they made it more "accessible" they have also decreased in numbers.


Perhaps they need to accept the fact they had a fun adult game dressed up as a kid with a high amount of adult/smarter players and ruined it by removing the complex side to it.

Why sacrifice the smarter players for a lower younger player base? Just because it is an artix game is no excuse to reduce the audience size.


I am all for compromises though, Don't you think it would be good if they kept both sides?



I have suggested it before and I will do it again what if they had difficulty server one with complex game mechanics and the other with the current easier style.

This would be done by restricting certain cores, robot, and skills to each difficulty setting.


and perhaps on the beginner server they offered tutorials and didn't show loses?


Here is my difficulty server suggestion post: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21529467


If they are not willing to even consider this then they could at least make a statement confirming their simplistic future goals so some of the smarter players hanging on hope can actually finally quit with the peace of mind the game is now not for them nor will it ever be anymore.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/15/2013 10:30:42 >
Epic  Post #: 51
12/15/2013 10:31:37   
Mother1
Member

@ Remorse

Because AE games are all aimed at kids. Also while I haven't been here as long as you have, When I was started here even with all the game breaking things you say the game had there was still pulling in players. In the infernal war we had 2 full servers and 3-4 server open. This right here is proof that even with all the things you say have destroyed the game the game was still thriving.

However when omega came along is when the huge nose dive came.

Why because omega took away what most of the older players loved in one form or another. Be it varium advantage, NPC loses, Etc, without giving too much to those players in return. They never fixed the problems that were around since the beginning while taking away what people loved about the game.

That is why we have such low numbers cause if it was because of what you said Remorse we would have never had such high numbers before omega.
Epic  Post #: 52
12/15/2013 10:35:51   
Remorse
Member

^ I suppose making it more accessible then did benefit them slightly.
Because you are right they were still thriving even when they had all the complex-ruining items (my opinion) in late delta.

Though I still think they should compromise both sides with a difficulty server.

That means perhaps some older player will return since if their was complex game mechanics they don't need the varium advanatge nor the NPC free wins if using a smart strategy actually worked.

I for one would be very happy, but I guess I am kinda selfish if this is not the majorities opinion.



I have just realized all the times I have pounded down the devs for releasing cores and robots that make the game play more simplistic, and what I thought was ruining the game, might have actually not been the majorities view so I want to apologies to the devs for mistakenly thinking they were ruining their game when they were actually trying to help the younger players.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/15/2013 10:45:20 >
Epic  Post #: 53
12/15/2013 13:13:43   
LigerBeard
Member

I'll admit, I see what you're trying to say, because i myself have a pretty nasty loss record. However, I also think that it might cause some more competitive players to quit at the same time, so the two effects would probably cancel each other out and if anything, there would be less players(because most players i meet are very competitive).

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 54
12/15/2013 13:21:06   
martinsen5
Member

Tbh I think my concern for losses is what prevents me from thinking new. Testing out new builds without having to worry about my losses at display would be pretty neat, though I understand how some find it enjoyable to show off their wins in comparision. I only have about 1k more wins than loses so it's really not a big deal. Perhaps make an option where the player can hide their losses.
AQW Epic  Post #: 55
12/15/2013 13:38:27   
Xx. Christian .xX
Member

This.. Why didnt anyone think of this lol.
Post #: 56
12/15/2013 13:46:57   
Altador987
Member

quote:

they had a fun adult game dressed up as a kid with a high amount of adult/smarter players and ruined it by removing the complex side to it


i agree with most of what's said but this a the BIGGEST point in my opinion that ties EVERYTHING together, while i in no circumstances want to take away from kids as i'm 20 now and have been playin for a few years and honestly didn't quite understand for a good two months of the real strategy that goes into this game, it's the reason i argue that the possibilities and tactics could be endless if they can balance the rest of the classes, i don't mind losing at all not even when i first got on but when varium mattered i really couldn't consider those losses as it was obviously ridiculously in the varium user's advantage even if the stats were ridiculous, even now i don't care when i lose, i just wanna lose in a different way thinking "i could have done this" or "that was a really smart move" not "if i crit, i win if i don't i lose" or "if he makes one mistake it's game over" it's not nearly as satisfying, sure we could erase the loss record but that has never been very relevant in my opinion it's just how i lose that bothers me, losing to a bot doesn't bother me, losing to good strategy doesn't bother me, losing miserably to a certain build (poison artillery merc for example) when it should be close really bothers me, even as a bounty hunter or a cyber hunter my matches against bounties are still close, i'd like more close matches that could go either way based on strategy and balance and choice and that's what i think will bring people back, as honestly i've noticed by the way a lot of players interact it seems that the younger crowd seems to be the majority of build copiers and the older crowd has dwindled
AQW Epic  Post #: 57
12/15/2013 14:30:51   
Drianx
Member

quote:


I have suggested it before and I will do it again what if they had difficulty server one with complex game mechanics and the other with the current easier style.

This would be done by restricting certain cores, robot, and skills to each difficulty setting.


and perhaps on the beginner server they offered tutorials and didn't show loses?

I see only one problem with this.

Smarter players will also join the easy server, for quick and easy wins.

Oh, and I completely agree with MrBones' and Mother1's posts above.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 12/15/2013 14:33:29 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 58
12/15/2013 14:42:08   
MrBones
Member

@ Martinsen5: The idea of a 'hide record' option do not work in my opinion. Competitive players would hackle and disrespect players who hide their records, assuming they have a bad one. Trolls will be trolls.
Only an all or nothing solution could work. Hide it for everybody or show it to everybody.

@Remorse: It seems my couple posts here are starting to open a new side of things for you. Balance is not everything. Like I said, how is it possible for every single players to win 100% of the time ?
Nobody likes to lose, especially to another player. Losing to an npc is one thing, losing to another human is completely different. This is why PvP games are so touchy.
Stop restricting. Open the game. No more focus, stats diminishing returns, requirements. Let the game explode with variety.

As I also stated previously, the game is part of the Artix network.
It seems to me [let me stress that this is only my opinion] that they will keep on catering to a younger audience, since EpicDuel is part of their younger audience network games.
They have that niche while other companies specialise in mature audience games. With the market being what it is today, I seriously doubt that they would jeopardize the community they took years to build.
They are making a point on their website for parents, assuring them that their network is for and design for a young audience.

If you are asking yourself where the game is heading, I don't think you need them to come forward with an official statement. Just open your eyes and face the truth...
BUT after playing a game for years, investing time and money, it is easier said then done.


PS. When I read what I just type, and the others posts I made on this thread, I come to realize that I am more attached to the game that I am willing to admit.
Life is very short kids. If your not happy doing something, make the necessary changes. It is not up to anybody (especially not up to browser game developers) but yourself to do it so.
Epic  Post #: 59
12/15/2013 15:23:12   
Shajun Ki
Member

^I think you have opened everyone's eyes with your posts, I haven't looked at this game like that before and I thank you for your wisdom.
Post #: 60
12/15/2013 15:37:49   
martinsen5
Member

@MrBones, Lol I seriously doubt anyone would make fun of someone for hiding their losses. Say a player has 20 k wins, yet they hide their loss count. That's still pretty impressive and I don't think anyone would mock you for it. As for myself I have between 5-6k wins and 4-5k losses, yet I've played since Beta and people know this due to my Founder armour. Am I made fun of? Nah.
AQW Epic  Post #: 61
12/15/2013 16:41:17   
ZanpakuTô
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 Alright guys, while a little late, I think it would be good to remind you all about the No Hacking Accusation policy that we have on the forums. Having combed through this thread after Finals Week, which contained a few other shenanigans outside of finals, I found that this thread contained a few posts discussing botting. While they weren't aimed at a player in particular, I would like to point out that even indiscriminately talking about botting is still a hacking accusation, because even if you don't know who is botting, you are still trying to accuse someone of it.

Consider this a reminder. But on top of that, have a happy discussion.

_____________________________
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 62
12/15/2013 18:23:28   
edwardvulture
Member

^ty


To all the people that says that this will drive competitive players out of the game:
(as stated on the very first post, but this will elaborate broadly)
Achievements based on your win rates over time(they could work like flags do now, monthly, weekly, yearly, 5 days, 4 hours, whatever the devs can think of) or over # of battles(500, 1000). Those will give people something to compete for and even increase competition.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 63
12/15/2013 18:51:42   
Predator9657
Member

I usually use peoples w/l ratio to estimate their skill at the game and therefore it helps me predict which moves they will make.

Furthermore, it helps in 2v2, when you're partner suggests something which seems slightly strange, if they record spells out "noob" then it is usually not a good idea to listen to them, but if it is pretty good, then it may be worth a shot.

Moreover, if losses were removed it would be harder to judge a players skill level in one glance.

On a personal level, it feels great when your w/l is better than most of the opponents you face ^^

In addition, without a record of the number of losses many players may resort to quick kill builds (efficiency is sacrificed for speed since % will not reflect on your record), which would lead to further problems + complaints (and a lot of overused builds).
Epic  Post #: 64
12/15/2013 21:23:42   
newtena
Member

it would be nice to sit down one day and calculate wins to lose ratio.
Post #: 65
12/15/2013 23:37:23   
Remorse
Member

@Altador
quote:

i agree with most of what's said but this a the BIGGEST point in my opinion that ties EVERYTHING together, while i in no circumstances want to take away from kids as i'm 20 now and have been playin for a few years and honestly didn't quite understand for a good two months of the real strategy that goes into this game, it's the reason i argue that the possibilities and tactics could be endless if they can balance the rest of the classes, i don't mind losing at all not even when i first got on but when varium mattered i really couldn't consider those losses as it was obviously ridiculously in the varium user's advantage even if the stats were ridiculous, even now i don't care when i lose, i just wanna lose in a different way thinking "i could have done this" or "that was a really smart move" not "if i crit, i win if i don't i lose" or "if he makes one mistake it's game over" it's not nearly as satisfying, sure we could erase the loss record but that has never been very relevant in my opinion it's just how i lose that bothers me, losing to a bot doesn't bother me, losing to good strategy doesn't bother me, losing miserably to a certain build (poison artillery merc for example) when it should be close really bothers me, even as a bounty hunter or a cyber hunter my matches against bounties are still close, i'd like more close matches that could go either way based on strategy and balance and choice and that's what i think will bring people back, as honestly i've noticed by the way a lot of players interact it seems that the younger crowd seems to be the majority of build copiers and the older crowd has dwindled

I completely agree with this, if they compensated for the easier game play style by offering a more complex style in diffrent servers then I think a lot of people won't mind losing, it will be a win, win.

@ Drianx
quote:

I see only one problem with this.

Smarter players will also join the easy server, for quick and easy wins.

Oh, and I completely agree with MrBones' and Mother1's posts above.

Their is nothing stopping anyone getting quick and easy wins, that is the whole point of the easy server ANYONE with the slightest of intelligence can easily execute hard to counter strategies which provide quick and easy wins, that is the whole reason I dislike the game now.

Smarter people would not abuse the easy server because the less smarter people can just as easily execute the same builds with little emphasis to deviate from the obvious strategies.

Why would the smarter players choose to play on a server like that when they can actually use their brains to earn them wins on the harder server, the only reason this would be the case is if they perhaps weren't as smart as they think or balance means uncounterable builds dominate too easy and fast.



@ MrBones
quote:

@Remorse: It seems my couple posts here are starting to open a new side of things for you. Balance is not everything. Like I said, how is it possible for every single players to win 100% of the time ?
Nobody likes to lose, especially to another player. Losing to an npc is one thing, losing to another human is completely different. This is why PvP games are so touchy.
Stop restricting. Open the game. No more focus, stats diminishing returns, requirements. Let the game explode with variety



You and mother have more or less opened my eyes to the fact that perhaps they are purposely ruining the game mechanics in my eyes as an attmept to make it easier for the younger players,

As for stop restricting and increase variety I strongly agree and perhaps this is something they can offer as a difference between a beginner server and a challenging server.

Again I will try to push the idea to compromise both here because I feel that the older players deserve something from how the game used to be, returned.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/15/2013 23:38:20 >
Epic  Post #: 66
12/16/2013 0:25:08   
Mother1
Member

@ remorse

Which means the smarter players can just make plans to counter those builds and beat them majority of the time as long as luck doesn't happen. Then there is stress relief as well. Why would I want to go to the harder server where I would have not only long fights, but have a good chance of getting beaten even with a good plan when I could go to the easy server to win for stress relief?

If I am looking for a challenge then yeah I would go to this server, but if I am looking for quick easy wins and stress relief I wouldn't go to the hard server.

In other words there are many reasons why smart players would go to an easy server instead of a hard one.

Epic  Post #: 67
12/16/2013 0:30:46   
Remorse
Member

^ That is very true,

But the point I'm trying to get is that they can't easily abuse it.

To a degree their smarts will be constricted down to a similar level to everyone else on that server as it is not as useful.

Counters do work to a degree but MUCH less so as how they used to work that is one of the reasons thinking out of the box's influence is much less and more focused around obvious easy to execute techniques.

If they still allow for both by introducing two styles of difficulty server then I think a lot of old players will return whilst keeping the newer younger audience.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/16/2013 0:33:42 >
Epic  Post #: 68
12/16/2013 9:27:44   
Steel Slayer
Member

How about this (and yes, I know it would be kinda hard to implement)-have the wins/loss chart be sortable? Like let us see how we've been doing on a daily/weekly/monthly basis on top of just looking at our overall records?

As for the idea of different severs with varying difficulties, that got brought up in delta, varium and non-var servers, and the arguments against it are the same as they were then-the "weaker" players wouldn't have the opportunity to learn from the "stronger" players. We were all new at some point, watching what others did is how we learned to be better, let's not deny others that opportunity.

Epic  Post #: 69
12/16/2013 19:15:03   
Remorse
Member

It has nothing to do with being varium or not both server allow anyone past lvl20 (read my suggestion post)

You can think of it being as a relaxed or high concentration server, the relaxed server would be the obvious server to start is as you can win with little thought required but that is not to say people will be easy to beat it will be a lot like now and people can be far from easy depending on the build.

The high concentration server will merely bring in complexity with new parameters required to consider when battling targeted at giving the older players something to play.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/16/2013 19:17:49 >
Epic  Post #: 70
12/16/2013 19:45:16   
Steel Slayer
Member

I didn't say you suggested segregating servers by varium, I said that was the idea in delta, I brought it up as a comparison. The idea of segregated servers has been brought up in the past, and was shot down for the reason I stated.
Epic  Post #: 71
12/16/2013 19:50:54   
Remorse
Member

Except your reason is invalid from the reason I stated.
You argument would only be valid if player had diffrent levels of power on each that is not the case. It is different PLAYSTYLES.


For example you think Im suggesting say the easy server is versing a computer at checkers on easy and then on hard on the other server this is not the case.

Im suggesting that the checkers becomes chess, a diffrent game if you will.

The skill varaibility of players will be the around the same on both just on the high concentrating server skill level will have more influence if you win or not, but that is not saying people with a lower skill level won't be on the high cocnetration server.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/16/2013 20:30:03 >
Epic  Post #: 72
12/21/2013 20:42:30   
toopygoo
Member

Welcome MrBONES. I haven't seen you around before, but you seem to be a pretty cool member to have around. Your points have been noted.

MY points of view on this idea? well, since you asked: i think this this could actually be a good idea. Now hear me out.. I saw some opinions stating that trolling would take over, and so i ask you, by level 30, how many people actually troll around in this game? not cause of records but because they wish to be seen as experienced and respectable players. its just how they are "raised" in the sense that that is the surroundings we provide them with. We give advice in 2v2, we are expected to make a sacrifice, or call the shots in risky situations and we are responsible for "fair level gap fights." We are also expected to display heroism and supremacy in juggernaut and the way that we teach lower levels, give them out knowledge and experience we can continue raising players who strafe from trolling because they know that is greatly looked down on, and oh right, they can get reported and banned. Trolling really wouldnt affect our level gap becasue of that. However, if you still make new accounts and play as lower levels, you will notice that it still happens when you're just starting out. example? well, if you join a 2v2 at level 6, and your partner is level 9, i guarantee that unless they are new players they will call you a noob as well, regardless of your skill. Why because at level 13-15 people discover the power of level difference because they do not level as fast, and call lower levels "noobs" and thus this habit is started. generally by the time they reach level 25, this kind of thing has stopped because of juggernauts: the higher level players who demonstrate a more "professional" behaviour. I strongly believe that trolling wouldn't become a thing, and it can easily be stopped with the power of the BanHammer.

The reasons this would be good? makes for less predictability. As someone pointed out, more experienced players can be kind of predictable becasue there is a rule of thumb of what is and isnt a good idea in a situation. someone with a reckless win/loss rate may or may not have this rule apply to them, so you have to approach every battle with a little more caution.

I think this would also take away simply win hungry builds. we all do like winning, i agree. Nothing i like more than the rapid increase of EXP/Credits/Influence/Wins. But its only cause it looks good. its the exact same way with armours or weapons now. But what if everyone looked the same? then suddenly people would greatly value skills over looks any day. I think the same could be said for fun. If no one knew your win/loss rate, then wouldnt it make sense to just have fun in a productive way rather than to be obsessed by blowing noobs to pieces? i think a vast majority including myself would benefit from this implementation. My win/loss is nothing to brag about yet, but its always raising (at level 25 i was like... 2win for 3 losses and now it 4/3) definitely not anything exceptional but someday, i would get there too. and I'm thinking That it would increase diversity among players if we just didnt care about wins for the purpose of "good looking stats"


And for those of you who really feel the need to show something off there would still be commander, overlord, legend demigod etc ranks available. And i propose the implementation of titles. you could change the colour of your name to anything by Green, but you can only unlock the new colours by reaching a certain win percentage, after getting to level 40? like 75% win rate after reaching level 40 would unlock the name colouring schemes. you still have a reason to maintain high win rates, but you also have plenty of time to just enjoy new builds and what not. this may perhaps the not the best suggestion, it was kind of spur of the moment :$
AQW Epic  Post #: 73
12/21/2013 23:09:07   
edwardvulture
Member

^I like the idea of coloring your own names, but you also wouldn't be able to change it to yellow because that is a dev color.

Also, another reason that eliminating loses would be a good idea is because of the grind when players hit level 30 and 31 and still fight 1 on 1. I know for sure that because, loses are counted and that they matter, a lot of new players chasing the level cap at this stage flat out quits.

To prevent people from having builds that would be quickly defeated, maybe we could scale the rewards of battle for duration(in turns for both wins and loses). But the numbers would have to be carefully though out so people can't just keep heal lopping to get a ton of credits and XP.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 74
12/23/2013 19:09:31   
toopygoo
Member

agreed.. it could be a factor dependant on the number of turns in a row without healing? thus it could be effective to create a tank build and lose just for the guarantee of high XP that way.. it would still be win /win in a way for lower levels?


and yes there may be a number of colours omitted from the menu... but just like rating stars, they change colour with greater success, except they would have more customization, instead of a locked appearance.

And this might be incorporated for certain events which do not deserve rating points but some kind of bonus would be cool:

e.g. hittingt level cap unlocks rainbow colours names:
finishing a halloween gives orange/black alternating
christmas gives red/green
having 1.5 w/l gives a crimson red colour
having a 2.0 w/l gives platinum soloured (like a 3D gray/silver)


name characters would not be changeable, except the colour of the font
AQW Epic  Post #: 75
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