RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected


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1/12/2014 12:42:55

toopygoo
Member

something else that should be considered is allowed weapon cores to be reusable multiple times per games, with an increasing energy cost: e.g. you can use hatchlings first time for 140 energy, and second time for 154, and then 3rd time for 169, and so on and so on. This would encourage more damage oriented builds rather than heal looping. at the same time, it doesnt empower those who are already going all out on damage, as they generally waste they energy early on in the game without much room for a comeback. Also, this could enhance tanking builds, so less of those high HP builds.

although i do acknowledge there are numerous problems with this suggestion, i greatly believe the pros would outweigh the cons.

Post #: 26

1/12/2014 12:57:55

DarkDevil
Member

@FrostWolv
first one is just that it makes changing nearly impossible for someone who isn't stuck at max lvl for ages.
you are just stoping the freedom of changing class , because a class maybe stronger than the other , which makes no sense , its just like using super glue to fix your finger cut.

the problem is not in changing classes but in the classes that get strong , which is sometimes or most of times just because other classes are weak.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 1/12/2014 13:02:29 >

AQ

Post #: 27

1/12/2014 13:17:22

FrostWolv
Member

@ DarkDevil

Well let me know how am I suggesting to completely stop class changing? Well I did suggested to increase the credits for changing class. I guess you are not looking into the one of the main reason for making this game imbalance .... which was and still is Class Hoping.

One finds an OP build for a class which counters many builds of same or other class. Other players loses against that build and they ask themselves "Why i try to make counter and make myself fragile to other build as I can not only make same type of build but can make exact build by changing class". And these copy build + class change goes on till the majority of player's base has it and ruin this game diversity and balance.

quote:

ts just like using super glue to fix your finger cut

Well finger cut was bearable since the infection of that disease was limited till my finger, but the infection is spreading at really fast rate at acost of 50k credits that is the reason I used super glue so that it does not reach the other parts of my body.

Epic	Post #: 28

1/12/2014 13:39:21

DarkDevil
Member

class hoping isn't a problem , ppl don't hop to any class , they hop to a balance broken one (or a working one when we are talking about ED

) , why would somone change his class if there is a balance , on the other hand even increasing a cost won't stop class hopers as they are limited , we are talking about 20-50 here , they will just get reduced to 10-30 , but on the other hand 1000 player will find it harder to change class.

this is what i ment by a super glue to fix a finger cut , you just make the problem bigger by destroying the tissue around the cut , were the cut won't heal because the glue is stoping it.

you are only ending at that there should be an OPed class and none shall hop to it.
hoping is genrated due to a problem in balance , not a problem with class changing.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 1/12/2014 13:46:59 >

AQ

Post #: 29

1/12/2014 14:03:42

FrostWolv
Member

@DarkDevil

I guess you are getting me wrong here. Class-hop is one of many balance issue ... to be precise it is one of the main balance issue.

And thre are not 25-50 here there are above 100+ ..... limiting them DOES helps. People will find it harder to change class but it will be worth it in the end.

This Class change feature was meant to use not abuse.

You want flashbacks about how people abused it?

In Early to mid delta ---> majority were Tactical Mercenary
In late delta ----> majority were Strength Blood Mage
In early omega ---> majority were Strength Merc
In mid omega ----> majority were Glass cannon Mage
After balance bonanza update ----> majority were Bounty Hunter and Caster Mage
Now after balance update for static Grenade ---> tide is shifting towards Tech Mage

Now look at the balance forum in any of these period ---> these classes had complain against them

Class change were went to use not ABUSE

quote:

you are only ending at that there should be an OPed class and none shall hop to it.

Do you want people to change class coz that class is just OP ?

quote:

this is what i ment by a super glue to fix a finger cut , you just make the problem bigger by destroying the tissue around the cut , were the cut won't heal because the glue is stoping it.

I will compensate to damage my issue and stop my body to get infected. If I dont, then during the time my tissue heals, my entire body will get infected.

Epic	Post #: 30

1/12/2014 14:10:21

DarkDevil
Member

i guess you have answered yourself , why did they change to those classes ?
because they were OPed

quote:

Do you want people to change class coz that class is just OP ?

do you want people not to change classes because one is unbalanced ?
the problem is usally in the class not the ppl hoping to it , the ppl who hop into it just make the unbalance clear , but it doesn't make it disapear if they don't.
and on the fingure cut , just get take a bandage and drop the point.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 1/12/2014 14:15:54 >

AQ

Post #: 31

1/12/2014 16:09:04

ValkyrieKnight
Member

This thread is besides the point. No true balance among so many classes can exist. Eventually, someone will find a very strong build that has few counters, players like the guy who copied my build are going to see it, and they're going to copy it. We can cover it up but it will always be there. As said before, people want to win and they'll copy whoevers build to win as many times as they need to.

Post #: 32

1/12/2014 17:09:47

kosmo
Member

balance is possible, atleast partial balance, i started to play this game in 2007 and i went true only 3 periods where the balance was totally massed up: heal loop back in beta, the begain of omega whit bug and overpowered dmg and current passive change whit class that have infinite energy suorce.

Epic	Post #: 33

1/12/2014 17:10:13

Remorse
Member

^val
You said the problem yourself FEW COUNTERS.

If they dramatically increase the number of counters through cores then that will greatly increase balance.

Balance doesn't have to ever reach a point where all classes are equal it just needs to reach a point where everything can be beatin with counters viable for all classes.

Kosmo
I agree it is the free costing skills which is causing this issue which is why they need to implement something like my stamina idea.

If they had stamina then they could also remove the restriction of cores being only usable once per game anf therefore increase viability if counters.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/12/2014 17:15:31 >

Epic	Post #: 34

1/12/2014 17:43:34

Mother1
Member

@ remorse

In other words trade one form of restriction for another?

Epic	Post #: 35

1/12/2014 18:09:53

Remorse
Member

^
Exactly excpet this way variety counters and overall balance is improved.

I have added a list of advantages on my stamina thread if you want to know how. http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21537904

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/12/2014 18:14:50 >

Epic	Post #: 36

1/12/2014 19:08:18

Altador987
Member

@Mother yes i know it's sad :( (the constant whining for nerfs)
@ Remorse and Mother

I feel like if each class was taken individually with creativity and uniqueness WITHOUT worrying about countering another class we'd actually reach a lot more balance... most complaints are that "this certain skill is crap compared to another class's similar skill" and that's sorta how balance has been attacked ever since the addition of the newer classes it didn't seem as much for the original three because they were obviously different classes with different advantages and disadvantages... now i think if each class was looked at separately and given great synergies for different unique builds that all had certain advantages and certain risks then we'd find a lot more balance...on the downside i can already see whiners complaining that their certain build always loses to this certain build and it therefore needs to be nerfed but all builds should have weaknesses to a certain build or other simply due to differentiation in advantages and disadvantages

Post #: 37

1/12/2014 19:13:20

Mother1
Member

@ altador987

That is why we are in the stat that we are in now.

Everyone wants to win majority of the time, and when the build that is their bane become the flavor of the week build they want it nerfed even when it can be counter with many things. There is that and as I said the fact that the whiners wanted all the advantages without any disadvantages which resulted in what we have now.

Epic	Post #: 38

1/12/2014 19:15:12

Remorse
Member

^ alt
I also agree with that often I make the point of making things uncompareable.

Belive it or not so stamina also helps with that.
For example static grenade is easy to compare as being better then emp since it has no costs and returns energy.

If static grenade costs stamina and emp costs energy then they become uncomparable and more unqiue.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/12/2014 19:17:13 >

Epic	Post #: 39

1/12/2014 19:27:35

Altador987
Member

i noticed you'd been talking about stamina but i hadn't really looked too much into it (kinda hopin there'd be a way to clean up the basics before adding anything new) but i also thought of something similar or exactly the same (i think) if anyone's played the original adventure quest they added in sp (is that stamina points? i never cared so much to figure it out) and slowly but surely made mp and sp different and in my opinion workable, you wouldn't need a drain for it and it could slowly but surely regain itself with each round i'm not perfect on exaclty how it could be installed but maybe that could be a way to fix things (if this is what you've been suggestin then my apologies lol)

Post #: 40

1/12/2014 19:30:15

Ranloth
Banned

Yes, and I've made the same comment about SP in AQ, compared to Remorse's suggestion - in AQ, it's not even necessary for you to use it; game's balance standards do NOT assume you even spend a point of it during the battle, or ever. Spending it will give you an edge, thus making the likelihood of winning higher (standards assume you win 90% of the time).

Idea sounds alike, but two completely different concepts and serving different purpose.

AQ

Post #: 41

1/12/2014 19:32:05

Remorse
Member

^it is essentialy that alt,

The specefics are on my thread.
I explain how the system should fit in ED with basics and how it can potentially be more complex throughout the thread.

I would appreciate your feedback on the thread I linked above.

@trans

Keep in mind SP in ED would only take into effect when cores come into effect at higher levels.

So like AQ it won't have much effect at all for lower levels.
This is a good thing because it means it won't make things more complex for new players

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/12/2014 19:38:48 >

Epic	Post #: 42

1/12/2014 19:37:44

Altador987
Member

haha whoops then i'll take a look at it sorry... honestly it seems most builds are looked at 3 ways... the 2-3 hit 1on1 killer, the ultimate bot and or finisher move synergy build, or the defensively offensive build, there used to be the completely supportive 2on2 build where a partner just buffed their partner, but it seems there's no strategy to anything else: chipping at damage while taking very little damage, taking a lot of damage while dishing out massive damage, using luck to aid one here and there...

Post #: 43

1/13/2014 10:53:15

edwardvulture
Member

Who else agrees that indignant loses are the main reason people complain about balance/quit the game?

AQ

DF

MQ

Post #: 44

1/13/2014 13:14:58

Drianx
Member

quote:

Who else agrees that indignant loses are the main reason people complain about balance/quit the game?

Not only I agree, but I've realized one thing: people keep criticizing balance because actually there isn't much else content or gameplay to speak about, be excited about, or criticize. Which lead to the conclusion that ED is just this empty.

As a comparison, AQW feels so fresh, so alive, so evolving, so full of new ideas and incentives every week. While ED, despite the dramatic changes that occurred within a year, it feels dull and boring and scarce in incentives as it has always been.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 1/13/2014 13:15:48 >

Post #: 45

1/13/2014 13:17:56

DarkDevil
Member

i belive omiting loses would be the best thing , at least ppl won't care so much about wining and will start enjoying the game.

AQ

Post #: 46

1/13/2014 13:19:33

Ranloth
Banned

Well, sure, if ED Team was anywhere near as big as the AQW Team, we would also see some great content out each week. I could easily say that AQW has more than a handful of full-time Artists, handful of coders, and plenty of Support Staff who do all kind of jobs.

Now, compare that to the ED Team. It's up to AE, to invest money into ED and expand the budget in order to recruit more Staff (paid), or hope someone is willing to work for free (volunteer). Perhaps it's time to stop expecting too much from the small Team which ED has right now.

AQ

Post #: 47

1/13/2014 14:47:15

Xendran
Member

Omitting losses removes the one last driving force this game has at the moment that is keeping it alive, which is competition.
It's also bringing back some older players like me, because we see the game and go "I bet i could make a near 100% win rate build with this new stuff".

AQ

DF

Post #: 48

1/13/2014 15:17:44

Drianx
Member

quote:

Omitting losses removes the one last driving force this game has at the moment that is keeping it alive, which is competition.

The win/loss ratio has been the only real incentive this game has ever had. And that's exactly what keeps it a small game.

Oh, and

quote:

Well, sure, if ED Team was anywhere near as big as the AQW Team, we would also see some great content out each week. I could easily say that AQW has more than a handful of full-time Artists, handful of coders, and plenty of Support Staff who do all kind of jobs.

Now, compare that to the ED Team. It's up to AE, to invest money into ED and expand the budget in order to recruit more Staff (paid), or hope someone is willing to work for free (volunteer). Perhaps it's time to stop expecting too much from the small Team which ED has right now.

Two men are selling apples.

One gives you 5 reasons why his apples are the best.

The other gives you 5 excuses why his apples are the worst.

Who runs the most successful business?

< Message edited by Drianx -- 1/13/2014 15:37:52 >

Post #: 49

1/13/2014 17:36:14

Altador987
Member

quote:

As a comparison, AQW feels so fresh, so alive, so evolving, so full of new ideas and incentives every week. While ED, despite the dramatic changes that occurred within a year, it feels dull and boring and scarce in incentives as it has always been.

Aqw with it's most wondrous updates and pretty timely updates doesn't receive much criticism on balance because regardless of the Pvp feature the game is catered for the player to win... and if you can't win alone you can just find someone to help you win... the two games aren't comparable in the slightest because while i have certain issues with that game it's never been about balance or gameplay because i ALWAYS win... which is why i seasonally get bored with it after a while

quote:

Two men are selling apples.

One gives you 5 reasons why his apples are the best.

The other gives you 5 excuses why his apples are the worst.

Who runs the most successful business?

in this certain predicament one is selling apples out of a factory of workers... the other out of a farm... mind you neither has actually lied about what they're giving you as ED went above and beyond by adding bonuses like 3 new classes, cores, robots, and other fun items... also keep in mind aqw is essentially a one player story with one player friends... it's basically AQ except you can be affected by others helping you... it's completely different when you're battling these players and you lose which people are very unused to due to the fact that anyone that's been with aq or any of those games knows that "if i can't win right this moment i'll simply train until i can win"... and in ED you can't do that because your opponent can do the same amount of training to stay ahead

Personally i've never cared for the storyline of ED anyway, not because it's boring... but i simply came to make weird but workable builds and fight other intelligent strategists and enjoy my matches while looking sweet... that's it... win or losses... everyone loses... even if balance was perfect that doesn't mean your win rate is gonna magically bloom it's not fixed

Post #: 50

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