The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (Full Version)

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edwardvulture -> The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 20:21:52)

the rest of the title : (and why it doens't need to be)

Discalimer: Don't feel bad if most of your posts concern balance and making it better, it is an important subject and I cannot deny that

First off, I can't really say classes are OP or UP but mostly, the OP thing is most likely a specific kind of build that is overpowered. (ex. 5 bonus)
Hello everyone, for those of you who don't know me, I have been playing since beta and have played (almost?) every release including this recent one. I have 6 epicduel accounts. They are: edwardvulture, Ed Vulture, Eddy Vulture, Testing..., Pow3r, and Fat and Furious. Collectively, they have a huge amount of wins. Yes, I have for every class at level 34/35. I'm going to say about a good amount comes from NPCs. Two of them have some varium on them. But varium is not really much of a balance issue these days, so that isn't important. I do not consider going for dailies but have always found builds that can do well if I ever decided to go for it. The closest I came to build copying was using a support merc in Beta.

Anyways... a huge amount of us come on the forums just to complain about balance. And in my humble opinion, balance in terms of dex, tech, str, and sup had was great at the end of Delta and should have stayed there. There were every kind of build and they were all relevant. Omega balance had brought some significant changes such as the 10x number precision update and converting all passive skills of the skill tree into actives. I have to say these 2 changes are definitely progress because people were really investing in passives too much and the 10x balance update just makes sense. However, now skills that involve energy are invested too much. How to fix this? I don't know.

Now to the main topic of this discussion...
Balance was never close to perfect. There was always an overpowered build people jumped to. In beta, there was heal loop mages. In gamma, there were 5 bonus gamma bot builds. In delta there were tactical mercenaries that could use smoke screen and potentially heal loop at the same time. And in all of them, there were strength BH's which are overpowered even now. But what you will find in all of these phases was that there were more players in terms of who was on the server at any given time. Balance was horrid, but why were there players? Because there were other features that players enjoyed/loved. A few examples are NPC wins, Pvp drops, and enhancements. Omega took them away, now all the players have left is to complain about balance.
Why players complain about balance:
I'm not going to be specific here but it really boils down to these things...
1. Indignant loses <------- hahahahahahahahahahaha
2. Build Copying
3. Being unable to find a build to suit the current state of balance(including being unable to keep a desired win rate)
4. $$$ used to keep up with the next OP build and having it being torn down the next balance update
Why balance can never be perfected
1. Classes are different and if we were all the same, no one will play this game because of the lack of variety.
2. Somebody will always be unhappy about how battles go.
3. Different build were meant to do different things.
4. Nothing is perfect but really, players are fine at enjoyable
Why balance DOESN'T need to be perfect.
First of all, I have pretty much made it clear that perfection of balance can never be achieved, but now I'm going to tell you why it doesn't need to be.
1. It wasn't the reason people came on to play.
Who has ever said that balance was the reason they played EpicDuel? People play to have a good time and feel that they are doing something that will take them away from reality a bit and possibly socialize with their in-game friends. Personally, I enjoy/ed playing battles because they were strategic and required some thinking to win. It was especially fun to win with a non-varium account against a varium account back in those days when non-variums had a severe disadvantage.
2. We can all feel like winners <----- I highly suggest you read the entirety of the first post because there are some parts that are REALLY connected to this subject
3. Somebody will always find the next OP build
This is inevitable. A lot of people play this game just to win. And to win most of the time these days, you "need" OP rare cores+all passive cores and use mostly likely a copied build from the TM and BH class. (unless you are genuinely a good build-maker) There will always be somebody to start a trend that can beat most players most of the time, ex. the striking build BH with no invested support in 1 vs 1. If we focus on that, no "fun" will be coming out of this game.
4. Players come on for features and HAVING FUN
Please do not reply that players are not having fun because of bad balance. the rebuttal to that is clearly on the link I posted.
5. 50/50 Battles make the result of every battle luck-based
You really want perfect balance? flip a coin and record the number of head and tails you get...

Ok.. those are enough points to keep the discussion burning for quite some time now. I will be signing off now will monitor this thread. I will not defend my argument in anyway as we are all entitled to our own opinions. I hope somebody does though...ha.

OFF TOPIC(OPINIONATED! DO NOT READ )
I have a lot of nice things to say about Omega. I like how buying varium and supporting this game doesn't necessarily give you that much of an edge over players that just take time and effort to buy everything using credits. I also like how almost every non-rare item can be bought using credits. I also enjoy the 10x update. Bigger numbers that are not overwhelming make this game seem more dynamic. I also like the arcade prizes even though I feel that it would be cooler if we can use arcade tokens to purchase the prizes instead of praying for a roll to get a specific item.
One thing I don't really enjoy as anymore, however, is battling. Part of that reason is balance, because there were some build gems that were made obsolete due to people complainig. I do hate fighting and losing to overpowered builds and how freaking five bonus builds that take no creativity is relevant. We cannont go down this path of nerfing and nerfing and nerfing, in fact I thinkg we'd be better off going the opposite direction. MAKE STAT+SKILL INVESTMENTS MATTER MORE Also, let's be honest the dread plains war is a flop and most top achievements are unattainable except for obvious addicts. Also, as a casual player, I find that the only thing legendary ranks will do is drive players like me(who have stuck with this game for the longest time and don't come up much aymore) to play even less because it is obvious an elitist system.



Remorse -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 21:54:49)

Of coarse balance will never be perfect but because other games succeed despite this is mainly because counters are more accessible and effeceint.

Also just because they cant reach point of perfect balance DOES NOT mean they should ever stop trying and adjusting as they go.

They should be focused on massievely increasing counters options and sorting out obvious imbalances.


What would also help is if they fix battle mechanics currently with issues being costless skills and high energy constraints and hard to counter OP cores and builds.



kosmo -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 21:57:29)

Class change is the main problem.It brought build coping for first time and today is giving alot of trouble to players with all the balance changes.Class change is a big profit for the game, but it s not possible to have an enjoyable pvp if they invest to much on things affecting gameplay, no one really enjoys pay to win.
At the start we had varium gears dominating, then we had enchancments dominating, now all you have to do is to change class evrytime they change the op class....The game didn t grow that much under this aspect.



Remorse -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 22:05:24)

Class changing is not the problem it is the access tool to taking advanatge of a poor balance system and a faulty battle mechanic.

Create a game with multiple counters to current OP strategies then the win factor becomes more about brains and destroys the nees to class hope to win which is the essential issue associated with class changes.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 22:05:52)

I'd never want the game to be perfectly balanced because then things would get boring fast. It's the fact that sometimes thing in Epicduel go interesting or take unexpected turns that makes me enjoy the game.

I've always said that if you want a perfectly balanced game then make it so everyone hit 3 (or 30) damage for everything they do, with a 50% chance to start first.

But then again, is everything being equal actually the definition of balance? I think that's an important topic within itself.



Remorse -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 22:08:00)

Having slightly stronger classes would not be an issue if it had clear counters accessible to everyone



Mother1 -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 22:11:36)

@ Kosmo

I have some friends who have been playing since alpha, and they told me that even back then build copying was happening so class change didn't bring build copying on.

From what I have seen the following happens with balance

1 A powerful build is found
2 People copy it
3 said build becomes overused
4 People who don't want to use said build but get beaten by it too often due to it being overused complain
5 Staff comes in and nerfs said build
6 Another build or builds that were kept in check by said build fills the mantle
7 repeat steps 1-6

Also why does this happen? Cause most people don't want to look for a counter build or build at the expense of losing when they can just copy a build they know that can win. If is because of this that we have all this build copying. Heck even if we had actual balance (which I don't see happening anytime soon) People would still just do the same thing instead of looking for their own builds.



lionblades -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 22:33:36)

All phases had OP classes but at least they had NPCs to compensate. And the constant bad luck? No problem NPC back your wins.

Now if your an UP class then its either follow the mass or get trashed.





GearzHeadz -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 22:39:59)

Its a PvP game. Not a PvE.



Remorse -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 22:40:07)

I agree with mother though they beed to make counters more effeceint and accessible which means people won't have to change class to compete with popular trends.

NPCs are NOT the way back. Neither is removing loses.



FrostWolv -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/11/2014 22:50:33)

In a pvp game balance can never be perfected but still a better balance can be achieved.

I want three things that I find to be implemented : -


1. Reduce the build copy by reducing the class jump by increasing the Class Change cost from 50k to 100k credits

2. Introduce Experience Giving NPC .... 15 fight in an hour .......... so that these npc only grants experience not wins. How will this help? The problem that lower level players have is to fight higher level players which is inevitable, and there are many high level that uses OP class and build of the week, but few high levels are non-OP class. Some low levels are bound to change class to use OP build in an hope to kill High level non-OP class just to get experience.

3. Little tweak in balance is always needed. Like I said before if balance cant be perfected , it still can be made Better than what it is at present.



Edited: typos



skeletondude -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 3:21:28)

Balance can't be made in ED. It is technically impossible, if your saying that things in ED need to be balanced then players will neither lose NOR will they win any matches. Thats the sad truth folk, every game must have some thing that is OP to make a difference.



Drianx -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 3:32:07)

quote:

Introduce Experience Giving NPC .... 15 fight in an hour .......... so that these npc only grants experience not wins. How will this help? The problem that lower level players have is to fight higher level players which is inevitable, and there are many high level that uses OP class and build of the week, but few high levels are non-OP class. Some low levels are bound to change class to use OP build in an hope to kill High level non-OP class just to get experience.

This is a very good idea. This way a player can progress without feeling like a loser when he comes within 5 levels from cap level players.

Otherwise, if devs stubbornly keep ED as a PVP only game, it will always remain a small game.



Remorse -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 4:21:39)

^ That has nothing to do with it, Some of the biggest games in the world are essentialy pvp only take league of legends for example that game is arguably the largest in the world and it is basically only pvp with essentialy repetative battles with diffrent mode vareints like ED and with over 100 champs they still manage balance fine therefore the concept ED needs to aspire to is acheivable and that is making repetative battles actully fun to a large audience.

Balance to the point everything is viable and fun game mechanics can be achieved.
Just massive changes are required.


EDIT: I have just thought of a good solution to people sick of versing others with a massive advantage

What if like league of legends ED had a ranking system when you reach max level you are matched with people of a similar rating.

Of coarse this would mean they would need to make skill a major influence in winning and therefore legendary ratings can be a ranked system where you go up and down if you lose or win to people of similar ratings.

Everyone wins really and is why LoL is so popular you are always matched with people with a similar skill level therefore they can make the game as complicated as they like and it can still be a kids game since they will be matched with kids their level.



Drianx -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 5:03:16)

quote:

What if like league of legends ED had a ranking system when you reach max level you are matched with people of a similar rating.

You forget one thing: League of Legends population is HUGE, that's why a tight matching system works. Apply that to ED and many will end up finding no match.

And I don't think League of Legends has ever lost a big part of the population at one point when dramatic gameplay changes occurred (like it happened in ED). I guess LoL has always been essentially the same, whereas ED Omega with its big changes has provoked a mass quit trend.



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 5:57:39)

As long as players like This exist, any build that shows promise will be copied in mass. He beat me with my own build....



DarkDevil -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 7:03:30)

its not about players copying , they must copy or they will lose , and losing is bad while winning is good.

you can't blaim someone by wanting to win , but you can blaim the OPed build not being balanced , balance is not about nerfing , its about all being possible and good.

the problem why a build looks strong is because others are not , where if so ppl will have no choice but to use the working build.

this is what you can see when static grenade was nerfed down to 30% , dex and poison builds were destroyed.



Pemberton -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 8:48:30)

The problem with Epicduel is there is no COUNTER builds for the OP builds. You spend all your credits retraining and retraining and changing weapon stats to find a build to at least be competitive then you realize you have no more credits and you still get destroyed by the OP builds. Then you realize changing class and copying the build is the best way to win.
Balance team? There is no balance team. It's basically Rabbleforth. Titan codes, Nightwraith and Charfade draw. You hire Roventos, another drawer. Yeah, we need more drawers.



Drianx -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 9:16:19)

quote:

As long as players like This exist, any build that shows promise will be copied in mass. He beat me with my own build....

Would you rather see him (and many others) quit the game instead? Think about this.



Altador987 -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 10:41:37)

the problem lies in the fact that the thought of equality to most either means everyone should win or everyone should do the same amount of damage, each class has certain advantages and disadvantages when compared to the other classes however there should be ways to overcome these disadvantages and advantages using strategy and skill that's what balance is, seeing that balance is wonky, certain "op" builds are copied as it's easier than wasting hours and hours and credits on boring builds that should but don't work, balance itself is actually a very simple process, however what most people complain about is what's fair and what's not fair... it isn't fair that tech mages have the best ways of regaining mp, it's not fair that bounties have the best hp regaining synergy... no it isn't but as long as all the classes are balanced there SHOULD be an unfair advantage that each class has over that certain disadvantage to make up for it and possibly win



GearzHeadz -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 11:56:26)

Which is why we need a passive system back, giving each class a unique edge, while producing diversity and not overpowering each other. My idea would be class passives. These would be passives that each class has, but does not take up room on the skill tree. The passives would be in between regular skills and unlock with level. I'll give some examples.

BH: 3% Chance to block, 3% damage dealt to health
CH: 3% Chance to block, 3% damage dealt to energy
TM: 3% Damage received to energy, 3% damage dealt to draining enemy damage
BM: 3% Damage dealt to health, 3% damage dealt rage increase
TLM: 3% Damage received to energy 3% damage dealt to draining enemy damage
Merc: 3% damage dealt rage increase, 3% damage dealt to energy

If we even had just small things like this given to each class, it would produce way more diversity and give classes something unique back to them.



Stabilis -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 11:58:56)

There is no true balance because the act of balancing is an ongoing assessment of separate items that are presumed to stand out or fall behind compared to the rest. Balance is not a "thing" but rather a state of things or a process (an action). When 2 identical skills have a different name but 1 of them improves faster (same energy cost- same everything else), there is an imbalance. There is no excuse to not take action because who would choose the skill that scales slower? And even someone did use the weaker skill, in a luckless environment they would always go to second place. Luck is not a balancing tool but rather a tool used to broaden the experience of dueling.

So far when we balance classes we fail to improve balance as (to paraphrase edwardvulture): we end up with another class (or even just another build) that is viewed as the current most powerful thing imagined. But all in all there is no formula, no scientific method, no trial and error or any process that can effectively look at 2 different classes or 2 different builds and effectively conclude that, "oh, it looks like this class is more powerful... let's nerf it".

No, it is a fruitless endeavor to balance classes and builds together because you are not assessing separate objects, you are assessing groups of objects. And you are not supposed to treat groups of objects as one because each individual piece is not treated uniquely... especially if you use methods to evenly distribute the pieces like using an average. 5 is not 6.2 (the average). 5 needs to be treated as 5, and we still treat 5 as 6.2.



Mother1 -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 12:08:30)

@ altador987

In the beginning of omega when they started adding cores to the game it was starting to go in that direction. For example thanks to energy shot and energy storm BM could energy drain, as well as gain energy back with generator.

However as I said before this wasn't enough. The whiner kept on complaining "If this happens to my class I lose we need (Insert way to overcome disadvantage here) to counter this without even wanting to give up anything in exchange for it. In other words all the advantages without any of the disadvantages.

Then when the staff tried to balance the cores by giving them an energy cost, then removed passives because they were a "must have for all builds" to increase planning and diversity they made energy drainers and gainers a must have. As a result Tech mage, Cyber hunter, Tactical Mercenary, and recently Mercenary (AKA the energy classes) lost that unique trait. Not only that but they put so much stress on energy they made energy gainers and drainers a must have which if you think about it is ironic since they wanted to add more diversity but instead just did like they normally do when they make balance changes In other words shift the flavor of the week to one thing to another.

One of the problems I see with balance changes are most of the suggestions made came from players who want to nerf something they are having problems with in order to get back to their winning without too much effort. Sometimes the nerf my be warranted but most of the time it is not. I say this because when counters are found many people post counters builds/items to a certain build but what I see most of the time is "Why should I have to do X in order to counter Y" or "You shouldn't have to do X to counter Y" and it is because of this that counters and creative builds kept getting nerfed and nerfed until we are in the state we are now.

I personally believe a hands off balance approach would be best because back when we had passives and the staff didn't make balance changes for a certain period of time what happened? People found counters to the flavor of the week builds and more creative builds began to surface because of this. Making balance changes so rapidly destroy's any possible counters that can be found and shifts the flavor of the week build once again.



GearzHeadz -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 12:14:03)

Which is why I think we need some sort of passive system back.

quote:

My idea would be class passives. These would be passives that each class has, but does not take up room on the skill tree. The passives would be in between regular skills and unlock with level. I'll give some examples.

BH: 3% Chance to block, 3% damage dealt to health
CH: 3% Chance to block, 3% damage dealt to energy
TM: 3% Damage received to energy, 3% damage dealt to draining enemy damage
BM: 3% Damage dealt to health, 3% damage dealt rage increase
TLM: 3% Damage received to energy 3% damage dealt to draining enemy damage
Merc: 3% damage dealt rage increase, 3% damage dealt to energy

If we even had just small things like this given to each class, it would produce way more diversity and give classes something unique back to them.


Quote from my previous comment. I really do think this would be a good step to bringing more unique traits to classes again. Classes SHOULD have their own advantages which makes them powerful. Taking this away was a big mistake.



FrostWolv -> RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected (1/12/2014 12:22:39)

@Remorse

Comparing this game with other isnt best way to discuss balance issue ... its even against forum rules. While LoL is Completely Multiplayer Online Battle Arena Game .... and this is totally a PvP game. Better tell ways to make people join this game.


Unless and until people stops class hoping better balance can not be achieved. More the class changes more the OP build is magnified hence more complain is seen in the forum

Why ppl change class?

1. get bored from one class // <--- only freewill and valid reason to change class

2. "All I want wins no matter what i need to do" <--- players who just care about winning no matter if it is to jump OP class multiple times

3. being level stuck <---- unable to win forces then to jump to OP class only to get Experience


If this class jump issue is solved it will directly make this game a better balance pvp dueling game.

My suggestion :-

quote:

In a pvp game balance can never be perfected but still a better balance can be achieved.

I want three things that I find to be implemented : -


1. Reduce the build copy by reducing the class jump by increasing the Class Change cost from 50k to 100k credits

2. Introduce Experience Giving NPC .... 15 fight in an hour .......... so that these npc only grants experience not wins. How will this help? The problem that lower level players have is to fight higher level players which is inevitable, and there are many high level that uses OP class and build of the week, but few high levels are non-OP class. Some low levels are bound to change class to use OP build in an hope to kill High level non-OP class just to get experience.

3. Little tweak in balance is always needed. Like I said before if balance cant be perfected , it still can be made Better than what it is at present.



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