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RE: The Next OP Class:Why balance will never be perfected

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1/15/2014 2:03:53   
Drianx
Member

quote:

There is always a new character, new builld, or new/better gear to be had, and THAT is what keeps you grinding. Epicduel is purely driven by competition, and i feel like i can say that safely after providing this example, as well as seeing this game progress over the course of the last 4 years (as well as the other game progressing over the course of the last 2 years).

I can hardly see any competition in grinding for a better sidearm, or for credits to change class.

There was some kind of competition - I'd rather name it jealousy - when lucky people who bought let's say Founders Armor, Bunnyzookas or Rixty swords were dominating the leaderboards, because of the edge provided by their gear. Hence everyone was struggling to counter these people, and were jealous on them at the same time.

Now the competition is non existant. Daily leaderboards are dominated by low level people, and daily champions are doing like 300 wins a day.
AQW Epic  Post #: 76
1/15/2014 3:57:50   
edwardvulture
Member

probably a good time to go for a daily, but I can't stand to play this game for extended lengths of time anymore.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 77
1/15/2014 16:17:28   
Xendran
Member

quote:

I can hardly see any competition in grinding for a better sidearm, or for credits to change class.


You quoted me totally out of context. I was talking about another game/genre, the ARPG.

Epicduel completely lacks the gear/build grind that other currently popular games are offering. While i understand that they are fundamentally different games in most ways, build diversity should still exist to a greater extent within epicduel.

I think i've seen a grand total of two endgame viable tech mage builds, for example.

Edited to remove Unnecessary Content. ~Ryu

< Message edited by Ryu Viranesh -- 1/15/2014 17:44:34 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 78
1/15/2014 16:52:28   
  Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED


 Xendran, would those be the str abuse bludgeon one, and the dex caster? Those are the most common I come across, gets me every time.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 79
1/15/2014 17:00:18   
GearzHeadz
Member

Mixed with heal looping of course.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 80
1/15/2014 17:36:23   
Xendran
Member

I wouldn't call it str abuse bludgeon, but bludgeon heal loop in general. I do mine with less str but more hp and it actually puts up an extremely good fight against higher levelled players. I can't imagine how it will be at 40.
The dex caster is the other one, but if you can outlast their energy you can usually kill them unless they stun/crit.

http://i43.tinypic.com/qqc21f.png
http://i41.tinypic.com/25qpxdj.png
http://i42.tinypic.com/2przc0n.png
http://i44.tinypic.com/2uhb78x.png
http://i44.tinypic.com/a44jna.png
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 81
1/15/2014 22:40:32   
Goony
Constructive!


 Balance will never be perfect, but the change from passive to active skills created another layer of imbalance due to the way that the change was made. Inequity was created by having some old passives that are now activated by strike (e.g. bloodlust) and others that are cast on self (e.g. hybrid)

In the case of mercenaries both old passives became cast on self and with blood commander being cast on self combined with intimidate (doesn't effect luck or defences) being a less effective debuff than smoke and malfunction... It is a little confusing to me that the old passives would be changed like this.

If what others are saying that strength builds are ruling the game then Mercenaries should be a good class to play since they have the most skills that are based on strength. They aren't, so it's not just strength that's causing the imbalance.

To me the real balance issues lies in the debuffs and energy skills...

Tech Mages can get too much energy and smoke is the best debuff. This allows synergy, in the mages case they can chain together several energy based skill attacks then recover energy for another set of skill attacks. In the BH case, smoke lowers the effectiveness of the opponents primary weapon (the only attack that can be used every turn) and since so many skill attacks are reliant on primary damage it is the most effective debuff. When chained together with blood lust and several other attacks like the armor reducing cores and hatchlings the class it has an obvious advantage over some other classes.

But instead of nerfing these classes, how about fixing the other classes.

Let's look at intimidate, the skill is rarely used in the game because it doesn't help with luck or reduce enough strength. Since all skill based strength attacks are improved by weapon damage and weapon damage outweighs strength damage by around 3-4:1. Weapon damage needs to be reduced and strength damage increased for it to become effective in it's current state.

How to fix, one way is increase strength reduction... at high player levels now intimidate with around 45 support will reduce strength by 20 at min (10 energy) and about 40 at max (30 energy)... With the strength scaling per stat point at high levels it will reduce strength damage by 2-8 points for 3 turns... so will reduce damage by 20 -80 HP. When you see mages frequently doing 450+ damage with bludgeon the reduction becomes mostly irrelevant. I'd hardly call that a form of intimidation!

If I was to change it I would either have it reduce strength and support (therefore adding a luck reducing factor to the skill) or as the name implies "intimidation" and have the energy gain of the opponent reduced by a % over 3 turns or have it reduce weapon damage.

In fact, a simple hatchling type core that instead reduced energy gained by 50% for 3 turns would stop the mage domination almost instantaneously!

But, that would just shift the balance back to BH if the other classes are not buffed... So, it's not just simply more cores needed... The active to passive skill change needs to be reviewed, the debuffs need to be better balanced and energy drain/regain needs to be fair for all classes as well as a good look at the comparative synergy of each classes skill trees . Just my opinion as a Mercenary player, as I am no longer an active moderator/tester!

< Message edited by Goony -- 1/15/2014 22:59:22 >
Epic  Post #: 82
1/15/2014 23:01:15   
Mother1
Member

@ goony

No offense to you but sadly from what I have seen the staff tends to choose to nerf the classes that are in fact balanced (meaning can make several decent builds) instead of buffing the weaker classes because it is easier to nerf then it is to buff.

I would love to see Mercenary being used again like that cause it is my second favorite class. But sadly while I see the staff is taking feedback from the players, it seems they are taking more of the bad ideas than good.

I also have to ask does the staff test some of the stuff fully before they throw it on us? Cause a lot of things that are discovered by the players could have very well been caught in the testing phases before be have everyone complaining about how OP or UP it is.
Epic  Post #: 83
1/15/2014 23:40:03   
Goony
Constructive!


 Hmm, the testing regime could be better, but the way AE releases weekly updates means that there is always going to be a limitation on the amount that can be done in the available timeframes...

That's not to say that the devs and testers don't discuss the changes. I will say that the testers do the best they can and often will highlight issues and skills are often changed after the discussion. For example when static smash was introduced, in testing it was able to return energy based on the damage done with no regard to how much energy the opponent had, As long as the opponent had more than 1 energy the skill still returned the energy based on the skills energy damage return %. After discussion this was changed so that the return became maxed at opponents energy pool.

This happens with every change, but testers have to also check to make sure the damage ranges are correct and other time consuming and possibly game breaking areas of the changes. For example I don't think there have been many cases ingame where players were resurrected after a multi attack... We had a few zombies in testing! The testers and devs do find a lot of bugs before they make the release live.

Balance is a lot harder to define in if you are always changing builds/skill trees/classes to check that everything is working as it should and if you look at most builds that are OP, they evolve rather than being immediately obvious at times... Sometimes the difference between a good build and an ordinary one can be 5 stat points invested in dex instead of HP or a certain level of skill points in a combination of skills.

I will say that during Omega initial testing that I thought weapon damage was too high since HP was being changed from 2hp/stat to 1hp/stat... The testing sort of highlighted it, but due to time constraints (Omega could have been later than it was), the devs did release it as it was and that did contribute to some of the balance issues.

But, I will always support the devs, because I know how bloody hard they work and also how much they care about the players. I would really like it if the players would stop complaining at times and help, but that is not the nature of online gaming platforms and players always want more ;)
Epic  Post #: 84
1/16/2014 0:14:11   
Remorse
Member

Going back to techies I think the problem is the fact their energy skills have no limit since they have not cost.
In fact any skill without a cost is causing issues for balance which is why they need to add something similar to my stamina idea. It will stop the looping for one.

All skills should have a limiting factor rather then cool down or it's begging for endless issues which may be waiting for the right time to show itself as brocken, which may be when something is nerfed making a new brocken thing come to shine.
If the fix the underlying mechanics then they don't need to continue on doing endless nerfs caused from broken mechanics.


They honestly need to prioritize on fixing the mechanics from the passive change which in my probably biast opinion would be introducing stamina.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/16/2014 0:18:38 >
Epic  Post #: 85
1/16/2014 0:21:02   
Drianx
Member

@Goony
Well, since you spoke about the effects of Intimidation, I think debuffs should nullify Focus as well. For example, if your Strength decreases from 45 to 30, your Focus level should also decrease from 5 to 2.
AQW Epic  Post #: 86
1/16/2014 0:30:17   
Remorse
Member

Or perhaps they can buff intimidate using stamina as I mentioned in the post.

It makes seance if when you intimidate someone you reduce their stamina regain rate.

It can also fix hybrid and mineral armour etc as explained in my post.
I would really appreciate your feedback goony.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/16/2014 0:31:11 >
Epic  Post #: 87
1/16/2014 1:00:42   
Altador987
Member

a few things

quote:

smoke is the best debuff

smoke and malf are on par the only reason smoke seems like a better debuff is due to the fact that most people will invest in tech before they invest in dex: you'll get way more deflections than you would blocks, when generator is brought into play it's easier (and seems more advantageous) to have higher tech and then invest armor points to physical defense so you can receive a small but effective heal, there's the robot of course, and lastly most skills that are based off of dex (save for overload) aren't all that useful... also smoke just affects block chance and physical defense there isn't an attack or skill or core that negatively affects the primary damage

otherwise Goony i think you have some very interesting suggestions and brought me to the thought of "what if intimidate affected damage output of the opponent in general... ya know... due to intimidation" i think it'd definitely help with tanking better

quote:

Well, since you spoke about the effects of Intimidation, I think debuffs should nullify Focus as well. For example, if your Strength decreases from 45 to 30, your Focus level should also decrease from 5 to 2.

that's a bit much especially if you consider what that means as far as malfunction would be concerned

AQW Epic  Post #: 88
1/16/2014 1:22:05   
Xendran
Member

Intimidate should be like shadow arts. Reduces all outgoing damage by a % instead of incoming.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 89
1/16/2014 2:50:41   
Goony
Constructive!


 @ Altador
Why smoke is best debuff in addition to reducing defence:

1. a block reduces damage by 90% while a deflection only reduces damage by 50%
2. there are more skills in the skill trees and cores that are either based on primary attacks or improve with dexterity than skills that improve with technology! i.e a bezerker if blocked can be reduced to <50 damage... Static Smash if blocked is game changing
3 guns have 2 turn cooldown and aux and robots have 3 turn cooldowns, only a primary weapon can be used every turn
4. The way blocks work means that for every 2.5 dexterity difference the % chance increases by 1. While it takes 3 technology difference to increase the deflection chance by 1.

quote:

definitely help with tanking better


There seems to be an assumption that mercenaries are still tanks, well hybrid is now a cast on self active skill that costs energy and at best can improve your def and res by 50%... That means when we enter battle all classes are basically equal in their ability to tank. Now take a look at some of the other shields and buffs that other classes have and explain to me how mercenaries are the best tanks. That's not even accounting for the fact that no-one ever uses a shield and rarely uses a buff versus a mercenary since we do not have a debuff that works :p

But as you and Xendran have both said intimidate would work better if it reduced damage. Then maybe there would be some synergy with hybrid as it would offset the rage build that is increased for your opponents when hybrid is used!

< Message edited by Goony -- 1/16/2014 3:01:12 >
Epic  Post #: 90
1/16/2014 2:51:38   
Pemberton
Member
 

 So many suggestions...but I've been here since beta...the balance only got worse and worse.

Beta: Competitive 3 classes, varium stronger than non varium by 10-20%
Gamma: 3 Classes were still played, varium advantage increase due to robots and promo skills
Delta: The beginning of the end, varium advantage up to 80%, tactical merc and cyber hunter sure win class.
Omega: Varium Advantage limited to promos, Competitive classes limited to TM and BH, passive to active (passive to energy skill),
rampant class jumping + build copying as the way to win, changing the number system as if 1 health or 1 energy will fix the balance (it did not)

The game needs a complete overhaul or maybe a return to gamma or beta gameplay.

Post #: 91
1/16/2014 3:03:11   
Ranloth
Banned


 Funny.

Agility was removed at cost of slower HP/EP scaling, and yet, it's 12.5 (1.25 on old system), not 10 (1).
Build copying existed since Alpha, just so you know. Likewise with class jumping after it was introduced in late Beta.
And TLMs were only good pre-nerf and towards very end of Delta, whilst CHs were quite a garbage after SC was nerfed greatly, so I don't know HOW they were guaranteed to win - in fact, it was all about TMs, high Tech TLMs, some BMs and BHs.
I won't mention how increase in F2P and P2P gap was caused due to bonus enhancements on Auxes and Guns - initially, it was Primary and Armors only - not due to promos themselves.
Oh, and Mercs were garbage back in Gamma already - they sure could compete, but not everyone could pull off an effective build.

Before you raise an issue, check your facts first. Had you been truly playing since Beta, as you claim to, then you'd know the past facts. Seems like you didn't, so don't spread false information.
AQ Epic  Post #: 92
1/16/2014 3:04:20   
Goony
Constructive!


 Beta balance was just as bad, Mercs thrashed BH, Mages beat Mercs and Bh beat mages... That's not balanced.

Gamma, let's have 9 months of heal loop tech mages again...

Let's not go back there :/
Epic  Post #: 93
1/16/2014 3:23:12   
Pemberton
Member
 

 I may have messed up some timeline it's been so long, sorry for that Mr. Trans...
Basically you agreed with me and just put (TLM only OP before nerf...ok...makes sense) (CH OP but after nerf not anymore...ok...makes sense too)
I didn't put all the OP instances their a lot but feel free to nit pick.

* Nice wins btw Mr. Trans, more than half of your fames.
Post #: 94
1/16/2014 3:23:20   
Remorse
Member

^@goony
The change I made to hybrid in my stamina thread using the system will give mercs their tanky identity back.

I would appreciate your feedback goony.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/16/2014 3:24:12 >
Epic  Post #: 95
1/16/2014 11:03:05   
Altador987
Member

quote:

a block reduces damage by 90% while a deflection only reduces damage by 50%
2. there are more skills in the skill trees and cores that are either based on primary attacks or improve with dexterity than skills that improve with technology! i.e a bezerker if blocked can be reduced to <50 damage... Static Smash if blocked is game changing

if i'm understanding you correctly you're speaking of the success of skills being carried out (like berserk, static charge, and other attacks that require an actual hit), i was specifying which attacks and defenses are literally improved with dex and or tech, and tech has a better say in the matter, yes dex affects blocks but if dex was so high demand we would see a lot more builds that used it as a higher stat at best you'll see it on par with tech and very rarely (usually the overload tm) will you actually see someone abuse dex because it's simply not a advantageous in the long run... blocking an attack is great but if i can make it so you do roughly the same damage without blocking or not a lot and get a lot more deflections than i would blocks i'll probably go for that... or that seems to be the case

quote:

There seems to be an assumption that mercenaries are still tanks

not really i was just seeing a bright outcome to the solution

quote:

Now take a look at some of the other shields and buffs that other classes have and explain to me how mercenaries are the best tanks

... i never made a point of this as mercs don't really have a need for dex at all other than maybe a requirement here or there and i think all the armor skills are a bit costly

quote:

maybe a return to gamma or beta gameplay.

lol anything but that the game may not be perfect but improvements have been made and really we just need to fix what we got instead of installin and reinstallin
AQW Epic  Post #: 96
1/16/2014 22:14:42   
edwardvulture
Member

You know what the developers didn't think of when they converted passives to actives? They didn't think of just having a limited amount of skill points go into passives. If they revise the skill tree a little bit, they could still use this principle on energy moves if every class had 2 of them just for variety's sake.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 97
1/16/2014 22:17:58   
GearzHeadz
Member

Or adding some sort of passives that didn't require any skill points to be invested into them.

quote:

Which is why we need a passive system back, giving each class a unique edge, while producing diversity and not overpowering each other. My idea would be class passives. These would be passives that each class has, but does not take up room on the skill tree. The passives would be in between regular skills and unlock with level. I'll give some examples.

BH: 3% Chance to block, 3% damage dealt to health
CH: 3% Chance to block, 3% damage dealt to energy
TM: 3% Damage received to energy, 3% damage dealt to draining enemy damage
BM: 3% Damage dealt to health, 3% damage dealt rage increase
TLM: 3% Damage received to energy 3% damage dealt to draining enemy damage
Merc: 3% damage dealt rage increase, 3% damage dealt to energy

If we even had just small things like this given to each class, it would produce way more diversity and give classes something unique back to them.


Quote from myself earlier in this thread, just a rough showing of my idea.

< Message edited by GearzHeadz -- 1/16/2014 22:19:11 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 98
1/16/2014 22:33:28   
Xendran
Member

If you're going to do a passive system, you need to do it more in depth. An example:

(One passive point is gained every 5 levels)
NOTE: These numbers may be a bit off in terms of current balance. 

---BLOODLUST---

Base Passive
Bloodlust
15% of damage dealt is returned as HP

--Line 1 - Defensive--
Blood Oath - Max Level: 2
1. Bloodlust power increased by +2%
2. Bloodlust power increased by +3%

Ensanguined Armor - Max Level: 2
1. 35% of health regained via Bloodlust is applied to your Defence and Resistance for one incoming action
2. 50% of health regained via Bloodlust is applied to your Defence and Resistance for one incoming action
Note: Incoming actions include friendly ones such as healing, shielding, or recieving a second HP Regain via Blood Pact. These will reset your D/R to normal.

Life Reaver - Max level: 1
15% of your damage is converted to HP and not dealt to the target


--Line 2 - Energy--

Excessive Bloodthirst - Max Level: 2
1. 7% of your damage is removed from your EP and converted to HP
2. 13% of your damage is removed from your EP and converted to HP

Plasma Lust - Max Level: 2
1. 10% of Energy spent by opponents to damage you is converted to EP
2. 17% of Energy spent by opponents to damage you is converted to EP


Plasma Reaver - Max Level: 1
All EP damage and regeneration applies to Health instead of Energy
30% Increased EP damage taken including Excessive Bloodthirst
30% Increased EP regeneration effectiveness


--Line 3 - Offensive--
Sustainability - Max Level: 2
Bloodlust will not activate on Criticals

1. Bloodlust power is quintupled when Blocked
2. Bloodlust power is septupled when Blocked


Diamond Blades - Max Level: 2
You cannot block attacks
Strikes pierce 10% of Defence and Resistance

1. Pierced damage has +60% additional Bloodlust power
2. Pierced damage has +90% additional Bloodlust power


Blood Pact - Max Level: 1
15% of damage dealt is returned as HP on the start of the enemy's turn.
Cannot regain Health outside of Passive skills.


< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/16/2014 22:35:12 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 99
1/16/2014 23:54:02   
GearzHeadz
Member

Like I said, a rough idea, but I think most players would appreciate a system like this.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 100
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