A New Method for Balance (Experimental Stage)


	Home \| Login \| Register \| Help \| Play

A New Method for Balance (Experimental Stage)

Logged in as: Guest

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel Balance >> A New Method for Balance (Experimental Stage)

Forum Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

1/12/2014 13:23:32

Stabilis
Member

Hey guys, I was just reading over some comments from people suggesting how to "improve balance" and that, and it gave me an idea.

What if for every skill that exists to this day, we provided a counter skill, and do this for every class? This means that no matter what build is used, there will always be an option that can challenge it.

Small example: I have Smokescreen. What specifically counters it? Reflex Boost, Defense Matrix, Mineral Armor.

See what I mean? If we look over every skill, and give the necessary counters to the other classes that do not have the skill, we can eliminate the concept of "uncounterable builds/skills". Since I started this, I may as well do most of the work (as in why should you do this for me?).

Images for each class (skills).

(A true counter is a skill that does exactly the opposite of another skill... negating or even overriding the skill. A partial counter is a skill that is not the exact opposite of another skill, but it still helps.

If you see a counter called Energy, this means that the skill can be stopped by: EMP Grenade, Static Grenade, Assimilation, Static Smash, Atom Smash, Energy Parasite, Battery Backup.

A counter skill can be used before or after the skill that it was meant to counter.)

Bounty Hunter:

Field Medic:
- What: Restores health.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy
Cheap Shot:
- What: Strike attack, ignores some armour, bonus to critical.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Shadow Arts, Hybrid Armor, Intimidate, Energy.
Smokescreen:
- What: Strike attack, lowers Dexterity.
- True Counter: Reflex Boost.
- Partial Counter: Defense Matrix, Mineral Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Malfunction, Energy.
Energy Shield:
- What: Raises Resistance.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Malfunction, Energy.
Mark of Blood:
- What: Strike attack, and activates Bloodlust against "marked" enemies.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Energy.
Static Grenade:
- What: Lowers energy, steals energy.
- True Counter: Energy.
- Partial Counter: None.
Multi Shot:
- What: Energy attack, hits multiple targets.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy Shield, Technician, Plasma Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Blood Shield, Smokecreen, Energy.
Reflex Boost:
- What: Raises Dexterity.
- True Counter: Smokescreen.
- Partial Counter: Energy.
Stun Grenade:
- What: Physical attack, can stun.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Defense Matrix, Reflex Boost, Mineral Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Smokescreen, Energy.
Shadow Arts:
- What: Reduces damage.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Smokescreen, Malfunction, Energy.
Massacre:
- What: Ultimate Strike attack.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Shadow Arts, Hybrid Armor, Intimidate, Energy.
Venom Strike:
- What: Ultimate Strike attack.
- True Counter: Field Medic
- Partial Counter: Energy.

Blood Mage:

Field Medic:
- What: Restores health.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy
Fireball:
- What: Physical attack.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Defense Matrix, Reflex Boost, Mineral Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Intimidate, Energy.
Energy Shield:
- What: Raises Resistance.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Malfunction, Energy.
Plasma Cannon:
- What: Energy attack, ignores some armour, bonus to critical.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy Shield, Technician, Plasma Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Blood Shield, Malfunction, Energy.
Mark of Blood:
- What: Strike attack, and activates Bloodlust against "marked" enemies.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Energy.
Overload:
- What: Energy attack, can stun.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy Shield, Technician, Plasma Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Blood Shield, Smokecreen, Energy.
Bludgeon:
- What: Raised Physical Strike attack.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Defense Matrix, Reflex Boost, Mineral Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Intimidate, Energy.
Intimidate:
- What: Lowers Strength.
- True Counter: Field Commander, Blood Commander.
- Partial Counter: Energy.
Plasma Rain:
- What: Energy attack, hits multiple targets.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy Shield, Technician, Plasma Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Blood Shield, Smokecreen, Energy.
Reflex Boost:
- What: Increases Dexterity.
- True Counter: Smokescreen.
- Partial Counter: Energy.
Supercharge:
- What: Ultimate spell.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy Shield, Technician, Plasma Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Blood Shield, Malfunction, Energy.
Energy Parasite:
- What: Strike attack, steals energy over time.
- True Counter: Energy.
- Partial Counter: None.

Cyber Hunter:

Field Medic:
- What: Restores health.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy
Cheap Shot:
- What: Strike attack, ignores some armour, bonus to critical.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Shadow Arts, Hybrid Armor, Intimidate, Energy.
EMP Grenade:
- What: Lowers energy.
- True Counter: Energy.
- Partial Counter: Malfunction.
Plasma Armor:
- What: Raises Resistance.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Malfunction, Energy.
Static Charge:
- What: Strike attack, and activates Bloodlust against "marked" enemies.
- True Counter: Energy.
- Partial Counter: Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Intimidate.
Defense Matrix:
- What: Raises Defense.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Smokescreen, Energy.
Multi Shot:
- What: Energy attack, hits multiple targets.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy Shield, Technician, Plasma Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Blood Shield, Smokecreen, Energy.
Malfunction:
- What: Strike attack, lowers Technology.
- True Counter: Technician.
- Partial Counter: Energy Shield, Plasma Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Blood Shield, Energy.
Venom Strike:
- What: Lowered Strike attack, poison damage over time.
- True Counter: Field Medic
- Partial Counter: Energy.
Plasma Grenade:
- What: Energy attack, can stun.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Energy Shield, Technician, Plasma Armor, Hybrid Armor, Shadow Arts, Blood Shield, Malfunction, Energy.
Massacre:
- What: Ultimate Strike attack.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Shadow Arts, Hybrid Armor, Intimidate, Energy.
Shadow Arts:
- What: Reduces damage.
- True Counter: None.
- Partial Counter: Smokescreen, Malfunction, Energy.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 1/15/2014 17:40:01 >

Epic

Post #: 1

1/12/2014 14:27:14

DarkDevil
Member

keep in mind that sometimes the balance part is requirement , as the case of masacre and parasite.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 1/12/2014 16:43:51 >

Epic

Post #: 2

1/12/2014 14:33:48

Mother1
Member

For field medic and any move that has a healing effect hatching rush is a part counter to it since it makes those moves only half as effective. And for energy costing moves energy drains are counters to them as well since you can't use the moves if you don't have the energy to do so.

Epic

Post #: 3

1/12/2014 14:49:19

Teserve
Member

I think some of these skills are uncounterable because it would break the game for this to happen. I want to know what you would suggest to counter something, let's say Massacre. I just think it would be hard to have true counters for some skills.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 4

1/12/2014 15:08:04

Stabilis
Member

quote:

For field medic and any move that has a healing effect hatching rush is a part counter to it since it makes those moves only half as effective. And for energy costing moves energy drains are counters to them as well since you can't use the moves if you don't have the energy to do so.

I take skill cores as counters, but I cannot take rare cores, unfortunately. An option that is timeless (not rare, unlimited) is something that can be used at any time at the player's demand. In a number of weeks, the Hatchling Rush core will not be available for ownership.

I would also take energy-reducing skills as counters, perhaps partial counters, since they only negate skills when skills can no longer be used. An energy-reducing skill might not reduce enough energy to stop a skill, and in contrast, Reflex Boost always counteracts Smokescreen.

quote:

I think some of these skills are uncounterable because it would break the game for this to happen. I want to know what you would suggest to counter something, let's say Massacre. I just think it would be hard to have true counters for some skills.

Very true, and I do not think that attack skills will ever have true counters except for Field Medic. However! Field Medic might be used to recover purely from weapon damage, and while that happens, it is in cooldown so it will not be reliable enough to recover from... Massacre for example.

I thank you for the feedback so far, everyone.

Epic

Post #: 5

1/12/2014 16:31:30

ED Divine Darkness
Member

shadow arts would be a counter to moves like mass?

_____________________________

Signature limits are 500x100 and 50kb
This includes text above, below or beside
Your signature was 287x208
Signature has been SCAKK'ed

AQW

Epic

Post #: 6

1/12/2014 16:35:24

Stabilis
Member

A counter, but only just. This is because it reduces the damage of any attack including Massacre but not DoT like poison.

Epic

Post #: 7

1/12/2014 16:55:53

kosmo
Member

i dont like too much the skill explication, but i totally agree whit the concept.

evry moove should have a counter (and its possible), this is true expecially for energy drains/regains which are the new must to have OP mooves, they just need to be equal, some may drain more, some may regain more, but in an equal way, so one would counter the other.

i cant understand why this game isnt balanced yet, whitout passives the changes that need to be done are so obius, im wondering if ED is just meant to be unbalanced :/

Epic

Post #: 8

1/12/2014 17:09:56

Ranloth
Banned

Because these "obvious" changes you speak of may not be a permanent solution, but a poor band-aid fix which won't work after something else gets altered. If you read things that Rabble has said before, you'd know he prefers to spend more time on fixing something properly, instead of a poor band-aid.

Obvious change for you would be nerfing TMs, based on what I've read from you. Obvious change for me is NOT nerfing TMs. Which one is the balanced one, which will improve ED? Something that's obvious, isn't always obvious, because the problem may be bigger, than a skill or two - perhaps it's one of the core mechanics instead.

Lastly, true balance will NEVER exist. Devs have acknowledged it and they are trying to get it close to perfect at least. Only because nerfing TMs seems good idea, doesn't mean other classes will be as balanced as they are - perhaps other OP combo will arise, and what then? More nerfs? This proves one nerf can be a poor fix to a much bigger problem. -.-

Epic

Post #: 9

1/12/2014 17:21:07

Remorse
Member

I love this approach to looking at balance.

If the devs used this then they would find out what counters they need to create using cores greatly solving balance.

Love this depressed this is the sort of approach to balance I have been hanging out for.

Epic	Post #: 10

1/12/2014 18:48:50

Altador987
Member

i believe the devs originally made counters to all skills by the shields... if you invest in an energy or physical shield or both then the amount of damage done is countered, they left it up to the player how much they'd need and or want to invest as well as how much defense and resistance one wanted to have in battle... each skill doesn't need it's own counter all skills have an ultimate counter called energy steal and and energy use, while some classes have better ways around this counter than others they are still there. it seems this post wants to make matches fair rather than balanced and in a fair match with an equal level and equal advantages and disadvantages the win literally goes to whoever happens to go first, we shouldn't focus on having a full counter we should focus on making sure each skill has both advantages and risks that are appropriate to the skill

AQW

Epic

Post #: 11

1/12/2014 19:12:19

Stabilis
Member

quote:

each skill doesn't need it's own counter all skills have an ultimate counter called energy steal and and energy use

This is what we want to avoid. Skills that demand our skill points. There should not be any move that you need to put points into, and energy skills are just that. Passive skills were eliminated since they were necessary. Energy skills might just get eliminated.

Epic

Post #: 12

1/12/2014 19:13:28

kosmo
Member

trans @

quote:

If you read things that Rabble has said before, you'd know he prefers to spend more time on fixing something properly, instead of a poor band-aid.

yeah we all sow what a good job he did, how can someting that isnt tested be introduced, many players were predicting what it was going to happen but still game braking changes got introduced, balance is alwaise meant to be partial, one little step at the time, not even compering one class whit the other.

quote:

Obvious change for you would be nerfing TMs, based on what I've read from you.

evidently u didnt read much from me.

quote:

Lastly, true balance will NEVER exist. Devs have acknowledged it and they are trying to get it close to perfect at least.

im not sure anymore if that is their intention, expecially when something absolutly not tested gets introduced.

Epic	Post #: 13

1/12/2014 19:30:48

Altador987
Member

that's not what i meant... not entirely... the point was eventually you run out of energy... also i'm not sure i understand your sentence entirely either what do you mean "There should not be any move that you need to put points into"?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 14

1/12/2014 19:40:16

Ranloth
Banned

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21572500 + post #3 - aimed at TMs, and how they need to be nerfed; Assimilation in particular. I'm not making things up, so don't even try.

Players aren't always right. If they were, ED would be in even worse balance state. Players constantly blame Devs for ruining the balance, but vast majority of balance changes in Omega was... PLAYER SUGGESTIONS. Isn't that ironic - listening to the players, and getting blamed for ruining the balance? Perhaps listening to the players a bit too much? Something here implies that players aren't always right.

Rabble doesn't release poor band-aid fixes without intention of making a permanent fix. He's altered blocks in the past, and next on his radar, is revamping core mechanics of the game - including deflections, rage, blocks, etc. We were already told it's his next major project, which is now his priority, after passives were removed.

Making balance changes and not comparing them to other classes leads to imbalance... Let's make two the same skills, for two different classes, but buff skill A and leave skill B underpowered, despite being exactly the same skills. Logic behind it? None.

Next time, please try getting some facts right at least, instead of just flaming how bad everything is. Don't expect something to be fixed, if all you do is complain - constructive criticism helps a bit more. They can "fix" what you want to be fixed, but it may not be in the way YOU want it to - but how are they supposed to know that, if you didn't even bother giving some constructive feedback? >.>

Epic

Post #: 15

1/12/2014 19:54:47

Remorse
Member

Notice how emp and atom smash aren't 100% required unlike some of the other versions.

I believe this is because the other ones are free (passives were also free coincidence I think not) and therefore have no opportunity cost except for used skill points.
If they added a new cost system like stamina then this would not be so much of an issue and would definitely not make the skills a requirement to max.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/12/2014 19:58:02 >

Epic	Post #: 16

1/12/2014 19:58:47

Mother1
Member

@ remorse

Those aren't used because they have a cost where energy is overly stressed. Add a cost to everything and it will put even more stress on moves which in turn add complications.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 1/12/2014 19:59:14 >

Epic	Post #: 17

1/12/2014 20:14:57

kosmo
Member

ok, i still wont to belive that unbalance isnt their intention, if so it would be stupid for me to play.

whatever none of the gamebraking changes has been sugested from the players, atleast not in the form they came up to be, a good example is passive change, how can u even introduce a 48 ep battery backup if u tested something, i doubt players suggested a ridiculus evident gap.

making all class more similiar could look like a restriction to variety, but how can we have variety when only 2 classes are aviable, to the point u face the same build again and again. (this may be a costant in ED but untill passive change the overused wasnt vastly overpowered);

and lastly i dont "flame", its just hard for me to find a costructive way to describe the staff incompetence.

Epic	Post #: 18

1/12/2014 20:26:19

Altador987
Member

^ then don't describe the staff at all it's not helping your point also doubting is great but you don't have evidence on your side other than "reasonable" speculation, so give them a rest they don't owe you or anyone else anything it's their game no matter how much we say we pay for them without them there is no game for anyone to enjoy

AQW

Epic

Post #: 19

1/12/2014 20:38:20

Stabilis
Member

quote:

that's not what i meant... not entirely... the point was eventually you run out of energy... also i'm not sure i understand your sentence entirely either what do you mean "There should not be any move that you need to put points into"?

Everybody should run out of energy, except for classes with Battery Backup and that is a skill that you can rely on. If you lack an energy skill you will be taken advantage of unless the enemy also lacks energy skills. There will not be a means of reusing skills, neither will there be a means of preventing enemies from using skills. This ability to control energy or lack thereof is game-breaking. Without them, it is just an empty weapons game. Skills drive the strategies in this game.

quote:

what do you mean "There should not be any move that you need to put points into"?

Energy skills are skills that are effective in every duel. Defense Matrix is useful against enemies with Physical weapons, but Battery Backup is always useful. 10 out of 72 skills use energy, so it is an important type of skill. Surgical Strike is a decent skill for Mercenary tanks, but incompatible with Strength Mercenary. However, Static Smash, is helpful in any battle. These skills demand points. No skill should demand points.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 1/12/2014 20:40:44 >

Epic

Post #: 20

1/12/2014 20:42:17

kosmo
Member

6 years of partial balances changes, what they do is just create the problem and then fix it in an infinite circle that never ends, and this because they dont sit there and just compare one class whit the other making sure their are all more or less balanced; now, i dont want to know why this happens, but for sure this is the main reason that boght players to leave

Epic	Post #: 21

1/12/2014 20:52:35

Mother1
Member

@ kosmo

Even with all the balance problems in the older phases players still came to the game and the game did thrive. While some indeed did leave other came and took their place. However when omega came along the huge nosedive everyone kept predicting in the older phases that never happened then happened now.

So can you please explain to me why all of this is happening now, instead of 6-1 years ago when all these balance changes where being made. Why is it only now in omega that players are saying screw it I quit rather than in Beta, Gamma, or even Delta?

Epic	Post #: 22

1/12/2014 21:16:58

kosmo
Member

because the comunity was based on players used to p2w that felt ripped off and left, aswell on the other side they didnt focus on low lvls and most of them quitted around lvl 30 due to the pain of gaining expirience out of looses.

Epic	Post #: 23

1/12/2014 21:34:17

Remorse
Member

Stamina does not add complications in lowers energy constraints.
And gives required constraints to skills that have unlimited abuse.

Epic	Post #: 24

Page: [1]

All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel Balance >> A New Method for Balance (Experimental Stage)

Jump to:

Icon Legend

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Forum Content Copyright © 2018 Artix Entertainment, LLC.

"AdventureQuest", "DragonFable", "MechQuest", "EpicDuel", "BattleOn.com", "AdventureQuest Worlds", "Artix Entertainment"
and all game character names are either trademarks or registered trademarks of Artix Entertainment, LLC. All rights are reserved.
PRIVACY POLICY