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RE: Juggernaut easy fix

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1/16/2014 19:03:49   
GearzHeadz
Member

What is your jug build?
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 26
1/16/2014 19:07:59   
Cyber Dream
Member

My build isn't the problem here.
AQW Epic  Post #: 27
1/16/2014 19:09:09   
GearzHeadz
Member

Maybe it is.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 28
1/16/2014 19:11:44   
Altador987
Member

no lol his attitude is xD in any case even if the "new players" aren't the old players, it doesn't state anywhere in the game that you'll be forced into matches you don't want and i highly dount people coming into the game will wanna have to deal with that... bye level 20 you're still learnin the ropes and then to be thrown in a jugg match is simply a bit much, also you should pay attention to things like balance if you know your class isn't good enough to jugg why complain about jugg and not fixing the class instead
AQW Epic  Post #: 29
1/16/2014 19:15:25   
Cyber Dream
Member

@Gearz Listen, Idk if you know me or not. But im the one who people come to if they need jugg builds. Trust me, my build isn't the problem. It's the jugg/balance/matchmaking system. You would know that if you actully played jugg, and when I say "played" I don't mean a few hundred battles. If you haven't played jugg alot during Omega then you have no right to give reason.

< Message edited by Cyber Dream -- 1/16/2014 19:17:53 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 30
1/16/2014 19:16:54   
Altador987
Member

translation: my opinion is correct and should be law because i play jugg more than you and people ask me for tips on it

also... it's a forum anyone has every right to give reason... that's sorta the point of a forum

< Message edited by Altador987 -- 1/16/2014 19:17:42 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 31
1/16/2014 19:20:24   
Cyber Dream
Member

@Altador you're missing the whole point here
AQW Epic  Post #: 32
1/16/2014 19:21:55   
Altador987
Member

the point being... i mean i could've sworn the point was about the suggestion seeing that's what the topic was... but enlighten me
AQW Epic  Post #: 33
1/16/2014 19:23:17   
Xendran
Member

quote:

translation: my opinion is correct and should be law because i play jugg more than you and people ask me for tips on it

also... it's a forum anyone has every right to give reason... that's sorta the point of a forum


Yes, however blatantly ignoring the wisdom of somebody with mass amounts of experience is like a 7th grader arguing with a chemistry professor about chemistry for no reason other than "because I can".
As a heavy theorycrafter i don't even have to enter juggernaut battles to tell you that they're COMPLETELY broken, and we have somebody who DOES do juggernaut battles extensively confirming that belief.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 34
1/16/2014 19:25:40   
Altador987
Member

what does that have to do with the actual topic... you know the ACTUAL suggestion being a chemistry professor is great but if you argue over simple schematics that aren't getting you anywhere ESPECIALLY when that's not what the topic was about makes you sound no better than said 7th grader
AQW Epic  Post #: 35
1/16/2014 19:26:01   
Cyber Dream
Member

@Altador
quote:

it's a forum anyone has every right to give reason... that's sorta the point of a forum

If you actually took the time to read and think then you would of saw that I wasn't saying that he didn't have the right to give reason. I was saying that he wasn't as experienced as most of the hardcore jugg players.

Now, I'd rather not turn this into an argument. I want to actually discuss the problems that Juggs have with juggernaut.
AQW Epic  Post #: 36
1/16/2014 19:27:58   
Altador987
Member

quote:

I was saying that he wasn't as experienced as most of the hardcore jugg players.


so instead of arguing your point you tried to demean his by making him aware of his lack of experience, you see i did think and i could see where it was going which is why i felt the need to give my 7th grade opinion if you will
AQW Epic  Post #: 37
1/16/2014 19:31:54   
Cyber Dream
Member

@ Altador Dosen't that sound funny to you? An inexperienced player discussing how to fix jugg? You win the argument,now can we please discuss a way to fix jug?

< Message edited by Cyber Dream -- 1/16/2014 19:32:56 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 38
1/16/2014 19:31:56   
Xendran
Member

@Altador987: It is not demeaning to point out a lack of experience. It is useful in this situation, because it gives people an idea of who would be more likely to have the experience required to make the correct judgement about the sort of changes that are required to turn juggernaut into a viable and entertaining game mode. Not all players have equal knowledge of the game or the balance of the game, and not every player has an equal opinion on the matter. In fact, every single player has a unique level of knowledge and experience, except for those with no knowledge at all.

It's not a judgement of the person, but rather calling into question whether or not they would truly have the experience (or intuition) required to make a judgement about the game in an accurate fashion.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 39
1/16/2014 19:39:56   
Altador987
Member

actually it is otherwise there's no point to it, your chemistry teacher example for instance: both the seventh grader and the professor try to prove their point obviously the professor has an advantage of vast knowledge, does that mean we disregard the 7th grader altogether... possibly but then you'd be rude for not hearing said 7th grader out

questioning someone's experience is nice i suppose but if you choose to use that as a means of ignoring their point then you're doing both yourself and them a disservice... while i obviously have my hatred of juggernaut matches i'm fully aware i have no choice when it comes to being put in one, however i and a few others disagreed with the idea suggested and gave our reasons... why don't either of you with you vast experience and knowledge simply give your input to give your point instead of questioning one's experience
AQW Epic  Post #: 40
1/16/2014 19:43:23   
Cyber Dream
Member

What do you guys think of this solution?

What if there were jugg only cores/skills. Of course we would have to add the option for lower levels to have a choice to jugg or not. Bringing this in will also mean bringing in anti jugg cores. I also think we should have jugg weapons that gives you stats to help you succed in jugg.
AQW Epic  Post #: 41
1/16/2014 19:44:55   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Gearz said

quote:

You are also using one of the not so strong classes. When you can hardly take on one enemy, why go in a game mode against two?


Part of the issue is not the Juggernaut matching system, but the balance of the classes.





< Message edited by Dual Thrusters -- 1/16/2014 19:45:27 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 42
1/16/2014 19:45:54   
Altador987
Member

seeing as you have to buy a jugg card to jugg i don't see why they couldn't have a jugg shop where you could buy items specifially for jugg usage (extra stats specific cores) they could even add a form of currency for said shop that would come from jugg matches in which to buy said items
AQW Epic  Post #: 43
1/16/2014 19:47:45   
Xendran
Member

If you look at the thread i created recently regarding armor skills, they offer a viable method of stalling or punishing much more than is currently possible when fighting two players.
Class balance is an extremely important part of juggernaut, as anybody who has fought two mercs and then two tech mages has found out.

quote:

does that mean we disregard the 7th grader altogether...

No, but it means you take what they say with a grain of salt, and they are going to be under much more pressure to prove all of their statements with higher levels of evidence, as they have a substantially smaller previous history of being accurate or inaccurate about their claims.

@Altador: Juggernaut-Only cores sounds pretty good to me. As long as they are balanced correctly, that could be something very interesting as it gives no advantage in 1v1 or 2v2, can only be used by the juggernaut player (so it can't be abused by the two lower level players), and would not interfere with 1v1 or 2v2 balance. You should not be forced to play juggernaut to compete in juggernaut though, so just credits/varium as currency would be fine. This is especially important if anybody wishes to attempt to host a Juggernaut Tournament, as players who are interested in trying juggernaut because of the tournament would quickly be turned away due to their lack of power in comparison to the other juggernauts.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/16/2014 19:49:57 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 44
1/16/2014 19:49:51   
Cyber Dream
Member

@Dual Yea, thats one the main issues. I think I stated that but it got brushed off. If im correct, the devs are working on seprate skills for each class. This should bring in different roles for each class.
AQW Epic  Post #: 45
1/16/2014 19:50:42   
Xendran
Member

If they added an extra row of good skills to every class, the amount of variety that could be possible would be unbelievable.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 46
1/16/2014 19:51:13   
GearzHeadz
Member

Its not like I don't do jug. And like you said, if I haven't played it in omega. I pretty much have only jugged in omega. Out of my 308 jug matches, around 300 of them have been in omega. And as you said, you're a merc so you ARE one of the weaker classes. MAYBE its your build and your class. Not that you can help it, even if it is a good build for a merc, it STILL is one of the weaker classes. Maybe we should focus more on balancing the weaker classes before beefing players in a CHALLENGE mode. Because maybe its just the fact that since merc is weaker in comparison, that's why its bad for you. You said I couldn't compare jugging because I am a BH and not a merc. But have you ever tried jugging with anything besides merc? I can tell you it'd probably be significantly easier. So yeah, maybe it is your build and class and level, NOT the game type. The game type is a challenge mode, and you are already using a class that pretty much makes every battle a challenge mode.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 47
1/16/2014 19:52:51   
lionblades
Member

As an retired extensive juggernaut until Omega P2A update I can confirm jugg is BROKEN right now. Jugg was almost balanced before that abomination called Passive to Active update. I HAD 85-90% ratio with BH and TLM in Omega. Not anymore because of this.

Why is that? Energy is so needy, and the SO MANY passives suck now just due to the energy cost and 1 turn loss cost. Not to mention all the builds ruined because of this including my favorite of all time the TLM tank infernal robot surgical build.
Because of this, jugg keeps getting HARDER. My ratio is around 50-60% average!!

Before Passive to Active change people still complained (like saying I only have 50% ratio whining junk) but I knew it was bias because I could get 85-90% top level (35) using the right build. It was challenging but doable. Now this is impossible and those saying jugg is balanced are clearly wrong.
AQW  Post #: 48
1/16/2014 19:54:40   
Altador987
Member

but if you don't challenge what they say how can they prove themselves, also the balance issue was my whole reasoning of why i wasn't too fond of the suggestion in the first place
AQW Epic  Post #: 49
1/16/2014 19:56:49   
GearzHeadz
Member

@Lionblades
Okay, all of what you said had nothing to do with jug's balance. It has to do with other balance in other areas of the game that are known to be imbalanced. It doesn't just make jug imbalanced, but ALL game modes. So here, yet again, not evidence that jug is broken, but other systems broken.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 50
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