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RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1

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3/16/2015 15:34:31   
Puma
Member
 

 I know it is more useful, but it's not useful in the sense that me switching will really do anything different. I was hoping it would be something along the lines of landing more crits and landing more often and being able to have attacks miss you more. It's like choosing a scythe over a dagger: only different in name.
Post #: 426
3/16/2015 15:51:27   
Mordred
Member

That's exactly what LUK does, Puma. It increases your Crit rate and B/P/D by 1 for every 20 points, in addition to the damage. And every 25 points adds one to Bonus. So, it does exactly what you want it to do.

< Message edited by Mordred -- 3/16/2015 15:52:08 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 427
3/16/2015 16:01:21   
Puma
Member
 

 Ill see if there's any difference by level 50 or something. I guess I wont be on hard mode much anymore.
Post #: 428
3/16/2015 16:55:01   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Mordred - Ash said the bonus defense from Luk functions as MPM, not BPD.

@Puma - As Mordred said, it does exactly those things. However, the extra Bonus (chance to hit) is pretty much irrelevant because you'll already have way more Bonus than most enemies have defense so you'll almost always only have a 1% chance to miss either way (excluding during enemy shield skills), the defense isn't enough to make a big difference due to weird mechanics, and because of the massive Crit buffs that Cryptic gets that's less useful too as I explained in my last post.

Really, the problem isn't Luk, it's Cryptic; the class is already so good at those rogueish things that it can't really be made much better without breaking the game. Sure, the defense from Luk could be more effective, but it's already very powerful on other classes so that would be bad.

Although... I wonder; I still think Luk is superior to Str/Dex/Int as a character stat (except for Cryptic :p), but what if the flat damage was removed and the other bonuses increased? If the Bonus increase were higher it could help even against shields, and as we know the defense is pretty unreliable. Increasing the Crit wouldn't really help at the level cap since we can already reach the cap of 50, but it could be great for lower levels. I'm just thinking aloud here, I don't really expect this to happen, but it would certainly offer more variety.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 3/16/2015 16:56:06 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 429
3/16/2015 17:04:40   
Ash
Member


 It really all depends on what the stat should function as. Making it a purely defensive stat with crit and bonus tacked on might provide more of a benefit to classes like Ninja or Necromancer but it also might make them overly strong to the point of it's a necessity to pick it for them to function as a defensive class in some people's eyes. It also runs the risk of causing certain things to be far too good. For example, if we take off the damage and make it increase the proc rate of specials and skill effects that would cause some weapons or skills to be really powerful and possibly broken. It's a very...touchy stat to get right.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 430
3/16/2015 17:17:48   
crabpeople
Member

It is pretty much as Sakurai said. LUK is "too" good but for me it's just a "momentum" thing. Issue solved when item stat changes come into play (offensive,defensive and fiesta). Even more with the future lv90 cap.

Why? because crit caps at 50% and later on will be something like "LUK is good but go with X points in case you use an offensive build to not surpass the 50 crit" Cuz let's be serious, the small buff in dmg/def/bonus isn't good enough compared with the other stats (atleast if ur not going for max hero damage as possible). It's just the 20points = 1% that make it "better than the rest".

I've commented this on the ultimate strategy guide, but right now the 50% cap can be reached with 160 LUK points with the proper items. With those reasonings I stated at the first paragraph, it will probably drop to 100 or less.

After that if you still go with the LUK investment it's just because you value more those minor bonuses than WIS/END or CHA hybrid.



< Message edited by crabpeople -- 3/16/2015 20:03:02 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 431
3/16/2015 18:02:43   
Dracojan
Member

its interesting that ppl think that luk is better when their calculations say otherwise. the combined dmg increase from luk is lower. its added as unreliable dmg.
bonus and evasion are good but not of any significance. they wont influence battles by enough to make them even to str. bonus is as the others said quite useless since we fight monsters with low enough defences and evasion increase will barely increase your effective hp so its not really of value in most fights.
in fights when you want defences, youd use skills that give major values like 150 mpm. even against normal monsters the mpm of equipment is high enough to make you hardly hittable so any more of that wont really matter.
luk has its uses and its appealing because of the wide variety of things it buffs but it cant edge over other stats in a specific category.
end > luk (evasion)
str > luk ( dmg)

if your logic tells you that luk is the best while math disagrees, then im sure its not the problem in math.
DF  Post #: 432
3/16/2015 19:27:51   
Puma
Member
 

 Ok, I get it. Back to Dex. Sorry, Ill stop trying to recreate Maplestory Rogue. Im just going to keep warring.
Post #: 433
3/17/2015 3:58:41   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Dracojan - It's less than 2% lower damage-wise than the damage stats, for a level 80 that's not a Cryptic. You say that the Bonus and defense won't matter in fights, yet you think that 2-3 non-crittable damage will when we're hitting in the hundreds? The point is that while Str > Luk for damage (for now, until we get slightly higher base damage), and End > Luk for defense, Luk does both things at once, while also applying to all weapons equally and giving a bit of a boost against shielding enemies (which admittedly are few).
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 434
3/17/2015 10:04:51   
Dracojan
Member

how often do you use all weapons? and all at once? this argument is simply ridiculous.
theres an exception of a handful of bosses that use shields and only one of them is bugged so it doesnt provide defence against all attack types. the attack type doesnt matter so you will never need different attack type weapons ever. i can easily stick to my weapons and scythes and do just fine. you cant do anything against shields that give mpm and right now with and without 200 luck your hit rate will be about the same.
its not really 2-3 non crittable dmg. its quite a bit different. its 10 non crittable and 20 crittable dmg. simply with lower crit chance. overall dmg may come close but as long as its lower, you cant call it superior.
yes, it does do both things at once and its a good stat for a balanced build. and we should leave the stat as such. im ok if you like the stat and how it works, as long as you dont call it better than another which is actually stronger.
DF  Post #: 435
3/17/2015 18:25:20   
admahu
Member
 

 While I don't care about LUK applying to all weapons, it does have benefits. Considering we're up to ridiculously large loot tables in quests now, it would be nice to only need a level 80 weapon drop, not a level 80 sword specifically.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 436
3/17/2015 21:22:27   
Arithonne
Member

Ash, I have a question about the level based bonus you added to our pet dragons. You said earlier in-thread that the CHA damage only applied to the pet dragon's normal attack, not to the skills. Does that also apply to the bonus? Because in the war, I'm seeing 4 of the 6 hits miss (on average) of the final fighter skill, and based on the monsters' MPM and my dragon's 50 bonus, I should be hitting more than that. I mean, my characters only have 60-something bonus and they rarely miss.

I understand that if it's a problem related to the dragon's coding it won't be a quick fix, and that's fine. I'm just trying to get a feel for why my dragon's missing so much, and the bonus not applying to the skills would explain a lot.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 437
3/17/2015 22:07:47   
Ash
Member


 It shouldn't be causing anything like that. Bonus is a universal stat in that it applies to all attacks and skills. The pet dragon's skills all count as attacks so they should be covered. I went ahead and poked at a couple of things that might help until the next engine update. If you clear your cache and close/reopen your browser it may fix several of the issues you're having with his accuracy.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 438
3/17/2015 23:52:01   
Arithonne
Member

Thanks, Ash, whatever you did seems to have done the trick. Pet dragon is finally hitting more than missing.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 439
3/18/2015 9:51:13   
Dracojan
Member

a bit off topic but my mages default staff does melee dmg. spells on the right side work and they do magical dmg but most skills on the left and also power on the right do melee dmg.
DF  Post #: 440
3/18/2015 12:02:34   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Dracojan - What did you mean by "10 non crittable and 20 crittable dmg?" Both Luk and Str/Dex/Int provide stat damage which isn't supposed to be affected by crits (though they both still do crit right now), so I'm not sure what you're getting at there... In any case, what I meant was that when you factor in crit's effect on average damage, Str/Dex/Int come out only a few points higher on most skills, which makes no more (probably even less) of a difference than a few Bonus and MPM.

As for weapons, I never said that people would want to use multiple attack types specifically; as admahu said, it's about convenience, and also variety. People never used multiple weapon types (except Scythes of course), but that's because they were punished for doing so. Now, if you go with Luk you can not only take whichever weapon type of the appropriate level drops first in a quest if you want (which is a real and noticeable time saver), you can use whichever type you think looks best in any given set as well.

And about the Mage staff, do you have Str trained higher than Dex/Int? I'm still doing Magic on all skills with my Mage default staff, but I have 1 Int so that I'll still do Magic damage with Scythes (until I re-do my gear to be more balanced and not so Int-focused). It could bee that the staff is acting as a Scythe and doing different damage types depending on your stats, for some reason.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 3/18/2015 12:05:32 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 441
3/18/2015 14:04:49   
Dracojan
Member

quote:

@Dracojan - What did you mean by "10 non crittable and 20 crittable dmg?" Both Luk and Str/Dex/Int provide stat damage which isn't supposed to be affected by crits (though they both still do crit right now), so I'm not sure what you're getting at there... In any case, what I meant was that when you factor in crit's effect on average damage, Str/Dex/Int come out only a few points higher on most skills, which makes no more (probably even less) of a difference than a few Bonus and MPM.
i mean what i wrote. thats how much dmg you gain while also factoring crits in my latter statement. overall your dmg will be lower and the difference only increases the higher the skill modifier is.

if you want to use luk for convenience, by all means, do so.

i have 0 str, 0 dex, 200 int, 0 end, 0 wis, 195 luk. now it does magic dmg as per normal... i cant duplicate the effect of before. weird bugs are weird.
V tnx Ash :D awesome work

< Message edited by Dracojan -- 3/18/2015 14:09:30 >
DF  Post #: 442
3/18/2015 14:06:12   
Ash
Member


 I didn't note it before since I was handling several things but I adjusted the default weapon to Magic instead of the Melee it currently was. Don't know why it was that to begin with but it's not any longer.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 443
3/18/2015 20:37:50   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Dracojan - Okay, you meant what you wrote... So, now would you mind explaining what you wrote/meant? :)

Considering both stats only give non-crittable damage as I said before, and the only thing you gain is 10 of that non-crittable damage by using S/D/I over Luk, I really have no idea what you're referring to when you say the difference is 10 non-crittable and 20 crittable damage.

Maybe it'll help if I explain where I got that 2-3 damage I mentioned: Base damage is about 88 (74-102 being the standard non-DC, non-"special" weapon damage at 80). My Crit is 38, and I have pretty standard equipment for a level 80 so I'm just going with that. Int provides 20 stat damage, Luk provides 10 stat damage and 10% crit chance.

Int: 88 * 1.38 + 20 = 141.44 base damage
Luk: 88 * 1.48 + 10 = 140.24 base damage

That base damage is then multiplied by skill damage modifiers, so the 1.2-damage difference becomes more like 2-3, on average. And that's where I got that number from! (On a side-note, while the difference is about 0.9% above, with the Grand Master weapon the difference is only 0.3%, which shows pretty well that when the level cap is raised and we get higher weapon damage, Luk will actually provide better damage if left as is.)

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 3/18/2015 20:43:35 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 444
3/18/2015 21:19:23   
Brasca123
Member

luk is a bit worse than a damage stat, but it covers other things, also, to get that close you are actually counting crit, which is not reliable as it's affected by RNG, you can use luck, it's convinient, it's a good all round stat, but it's pretty well balanced and somewhat unreliable, which is what luk is supposed to be anyway
AQ DF  Post #: 445
3/18/2015 21:53:20   
Dracojan
Member

quote:

Considering both stats only give non-crittable damage as I said before, and the only thing you gain is 10 of that non-crittable damage by using S/D/I over Luk, I really have no idea what you're referring to when you say the difference is 10 non-crittable and 20 crittable damage.
well you play a different game since bonus dmg from stats can crit. ill give an example from experience. im in a quest, using final/crit skills to kill normal monsters. in boss battles i use shield for defence and unleash the most damaging combo.
when i face all the normal monsters, my 200str gives me 10 non crit dmg more than 200luk and 20 crit dmg more. this is without applying any addition skill multipliers.
in the boss battle im having the same difference of dmg but with lower crit chance on all the skills that cant autocrit. and it surely isnt 2-3 dmg with skills being taken into consideration.
calculating overall dmg on a non auto crit skill that does 100% dmg using the same formula as you shows that str is stronger as well, even in the case where bonus dmg cant crit, which is totally not true.
and using the nsod we have (91+20)*1.4=155.4 // (91+10)*1.5=151.5
so on hit your dmg is 10 non crit and 20 crit dmg more with str, no matter the weapon, overall dmg is 4 more with str using one of the strongest weapons in the game. in a normal quest you wouldnt rely on 100% dmg skills so your dmg difference will increase and it will further increase over time. also autocrit skills are very common and used too often to look at the crit increase and calculate it as a flat dmg increase like you would do with boost.

if you have the argument that % wise the difference is small then id use some humor... and compare both stats on my titan dragon. there 10non crit and 20crit dmg increase would be below 1% so that means the stat is basically the same as luk?
DF  Post #: 446
3/18/2015 22:14:54   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

Okay, I see the confusion now; we've actually already been over this before, but yes, stat damage is currently able to crit, however it's not supposed to according to Ash, so presumably it will be fixed at some point. Better to plan for the fixed version than the current bugged one, eh?

As for the percentages thing, you're missing the point... Stat damage is a flat addition, while crit is a percentage that scales with base damage, which is why I've been saying Luk gets better with higher base damage; if it were merely a matter of comparing the same flat difference (i.e., +10 damage) to a higher total, then the difference between 88 weapon damage and 95 weapon damage wouldn't be as big. To use your dragon example, if you're hitting for 1,000 damage then the ~10% increase from 200 Luk's 10 Crit is 100 damage, 10 times better than the 10 extra flat damage from Str. :/

Although, that being said, even if it were simply +10 damage I would indeed say that they were basically the same... When you're hitting in the thousands, an extra 10 is entirely irrelevant.


@Brasca123 - Yes, it is more variable and that's definitely something that, subjectively, people might not prefer (if it were an option I'd go with pure stability as a personal preference, but sadly it's not ._.). But you seem to be viewing it as an inherently disadvantageous thing, which it isn't; as I've said a few times now, it's not only a negative in that you might get a string of non-crits, it's also a positive in that you might get a bunch of crits in a row. It's the same as using weapons with a range of damage (i.e., 74-102) instead of stable damage (88-88); the range of damage is less reliable, yet in the end they have the same average damage. :D
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 447
3/18/2015 22:55:32   
Dracojan
Member

im not confused, you seem to be. bonus dmg from stats is critting for 10 years now, may be a bit less since stats were introduced a bit later but if you plan for the unforseeable future, then its your problem. i plan for now and if things change, my plans change. making false assumptions wont help you now. it will once those changes are made but so far we cant even be sure when or if they will come.

i was not talking about the crit increase. i know how it scales but i was ridiculing your overall dmg comparisons and how you are trying to make them look a bit closer than they really are.
in the future when weapons deal higher dmg... i already am at my max crit chance so in the future the crit chance wont give me any more dmg at all. so now is actually the peak for bonus crit dmg and having 300 luk or 200 luk is absolutely the same even now. at lvl 100 you would have close to your crit cap from equipment alone so...

and i still think we compare the stats, not something else. am i in the wrong.

well idk if i look confused or im not defending my case with good enough facts. but as long as str gives me more dmg than luk, then i wouldnt dare call luk the best stat or better than str. when applied using skills and everything it just solidifies my point and maths saying that im right. and we cant argue with math. i c that you like the stat, i do so too. even you are showing that its not as good as str and i dont see what you want to proove. its worse in any quantifiable way than str/dex/int and the difference is more than significant enough. will it make a difference in the game?? in some quests it will, in others it wont. would ppl prefer it over the stronger stat just for some form of convenience? its all up to the player to decide.
DF  Post #: 448
3/19/2015 0:10:34   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

From what Ash has said about it, stat damage not critting was supposed to be something new in 14.0.1, so I really don't see what relevance the game existing for 10 years is supposed to have; you realize that this entire patch is about things changing after having been the same for all that time, don't you? :P

But honestly, it doesn't make that much of a difference anyway as it only increases the damage difference by about 2%; the only reason it was such a point of contention is because I didn't understand what you meant so it had to be clarified, not because it's something that would have huge implications.

As for the matter of crit chance capping, well, you're being a bit of a hypocrite there aren't you? "if you plan for the unforseeable future, then its your problem", is what you said just a few sentences earlier... We already know there's a revamp to item stats coming, so I'm not ignoring that fact, I'm only holding off on making any judgments about it yet. For all we know items will have their Crit reduced, or items with S/D/I will become more valuable (since S/D/I on items is going to be raised, as Ash has said) so we'll have less crit by way of choosing to focus on that instead of Crit. I have said since the start that Luk is only better until the Crit cap of 50; that much is entirely obvious. Up until that point though, every higher point of base damage makes Luk worth more, that's all I was saying.

Anyway, the difference between our evaluations seems pretty clear by now: you seem to view damage as the only thing that matters, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter. On the other hand, I know how uncommon it is for enemies to survive with only a few health left for me, so I give very little value to a few extra damage. Will that extra damage ever let me kill something 1 turn sooner? Of course it will, infrequently, but then the extra Bonus can have a much greater effect against shielding enemies - provided they're still under 100 MPM/200 BPD of course, which most are - and the extra defense will also occasionally let me heal or use a shield a turn later in challenging fights, even possibly (but quite rarely I'm sure) let me survive when I would otherwise have died.

The point is, just because you only value the damage side of the stat, doesn't mean that the math actually shows it's inferior. It means you're ignoring parts of the math due to preference. Do note that I'm not saying my conclusion is the objective and correct one either; it's also an opinion based on the math, just with different values given to things. So I guess at this point we should simply agree to disagree? :)

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 3/19/2015 0:12:51 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 449
3/19/2015 8:12:37   
Dracojan
Member

Ash can say anything he likes. but we shouldnt make false decisions until the things are actually implemented and then they become correct. even then luk is worse... so...

well ppl use strats with 0 str and 0 luk and they have the exact same argument. does that make both stats useless? they also dont see any monsters surviving with just a litttle bit of health frequently.

quote:

As for the matter of crit chance capping, well, you're being a bit of a hypocrite there aren't you? "if you plan for the unforseeable future, then its your problem", is what you said just a few sentences earlier...
the crit is capping right now, so how exactly am i a hypocrite?

quote:

Anyway, the difference between our evaluations seems pretty clear by now: you seem to view damage as the only thing that matters, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter.
im only comparing the dmg bonus because thats the only thing that we can compare... i mentioned about all the other bonuses earlier and made my point quite well.
a player already did a few tests of 1k hits and the conclusion to bonus is evident. and evasion matters very little when all the classes have 4-5 defensive skills that keep you alive quite nicely and over the duration of every boss battle so the extra defence, which isnt very much because of how the game works, doesnt really provide significant enough defence to rely on. over a huge amount of time you may dodge one hit here, one there, but it wont make an unbeatable boss beatable or vice versa.
if you want to compare end and not talk about the hp it provides then sure, its worse than wis cuz end gives you very little mana............. at least thats what you sound like. or am i reading this incorrectly: "you seem to view damage as the only thing that matters". we can always compare stats by attributes that they dont have. sure. go ahead...

quote:

The point is, just because you only value the damage side of the stat, doesn't mean that the math actually shows it's inferior. It means you're ignoring parts of the math due to preference. Do note that I'm not saying my conclusion is the objective and correct one either; it's also an opinion based on the math, just with different values given to things. So I guess at this point we should simply agree to disagree? :)
when comparing 2 stats i cant compare them on anything else other than the things they give. which has more bananas in it? idk, you tell me.
its not about preferences for me, more like its for you. comparing 2 values is easy and absolutely objectional. idk how you make it opinion based. 150>140. doesnt matter if you think otherwise. and you actually do which is what amazes me...
we already provided enough defence for our arguments and its useless repeating ourselves more. so thats all we can do :D
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