RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1


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4/12/2015 12:38:14

The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*

The interface has gone and covered up the first small section of the xp bar.

Also, sort of unrelated, but could we get 5 more star points?
I'm staring at my stats board and flopping around internally because it'll never reach x/10, because stats are granted at level ups and you start at level 1.

Is having players start at level 0 to grant the extra 5 even possible?

AQW

Post #: 501

4/12/2015 12:58:55

Ash
Member

I'll readjust the scrolls.

You'll get them when you cap out at 100.

Not with how the game works in terms of leveling up.

AQW

Post #: 502

4/12/2015 15:13:14

Snakezarr
Member

@EROSION Adjust your stats in tune with your equips thats what I did so if you have plus 18 str or whatever put 192 str and you get a nice even bonus

< Message edited by Snakezarr -- 4/12/2015 15:14:26 >

Post #: 503

4/12/2015 16:20:11

Baron Dante
Member

So how does Dodge/Parry/Block work?
With Melee/Pierce/Magic, it's fairly obvious, since they all correspond to the type of the attack.

Do they all try to prevent the hit, or does the game pick up one in some manner?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 504

4/12/2015 16:30:43

Ash
Member

It goes down a list built into the battle engine.

Attack Type. (Chooses appropriate one)
Block.
Dodge.
Parry.
Built in "rolls a 1" miss chance.

AQW

Post #: 505

4/12/2015 21:44:07

Dracojan
Member

i think the evasion from luck got bugged again.

DF	Post #: 506

4/13/2015 4:31:13

Baron Dante
Member

Doesn't that mean that the further along we go with the list, the worse the stats come in practice, as for it to even matter, it requires all the previous checks to fail? (Of course, the critical fail only really matters if one of said checks worked)

Because I'm ever so good at explaining things, let's have an example.
I could imagine a high-level player having ~50 M/P/M, depending what kind of gear he might be sporting.
Using some of the fairly standard defensive skills give you B/D/P a boost of 140.
In theory, it means that M/P/M has a 50% chance of blocking a move, and B/D/P each have a 70% chance to block the move from an enemy with 0 Bonus.

In actuality, that wouldn't be the case, now would it?
It first checks against M/P/M, and that get's the full 50%.
Now, with Block, there's already a 50% chance it doesn't even matter anymore. So instead of the full 70%, it would be 35%.
Next with Dodge, there's already been 85% chance the move was blocked. Only 15% of Dodges actually matter. 70% turns into 10,5% instead.
And then it does Parry. Add the 10,5% to the previous 85% chance, and you've got 95,5% rate of preventing the move before Parry even matters. So, a whopping 4,5% of Parry has a purpose. The 70% is now 3,15%.
(That's a total of 98,65% chance of an attack ot going through before that critical failure being included, but eh)

Now, there are two things to note here:
The first one is that none of this really matters, except for maybe how you'll see less Parry than the other stats. (Unless it checks all of them and picks one of the successful ones on random, but then, the specific order would barely even matter)
The second is that outside of skills (Which usually boosts B/D/P each, instead of just one) this is barely noticeable. Even at high levels, you're not too likely to even get all three of the stats past 10.

Also, looking at the first post description of LUK, where exactly does the increased chance to avoid attack go?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 507

4/13/2015 5:31:00

Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)

BD: The LUK chance goes to Block, I think.

Also, that example is absolutely true against an enemy with 0 Bonus, but there aren't really many of those who you won't one-hit. Plus 50 M/P/M is about 42% miss chance at 0 Bonus, since 120 M/P/M is 100%.

Just wondering, though: isn't LUK a bit OP? It gives half the damage that STR/INT/DEX do (i.e. 1 point every 20 vs 1 every 10), it gives Crit every 20, which is pretty much equal to another point of damage, it gives Bonus, which is useful, and it gives Block. It seems to be better than STR/INT/DEX just at giving damage, because of the Bonus and Crit factor.

< Message edited by Hopeful Guy -- 4/13/2015 6:01:05 >

DF	Post #: 508

4/13/2015 7:16:17

Azan
Member

But LUK is based on chance while STR/DEX/INT grant guaranteed damage. 20 Crit won't mean you'll always crit more, more Bonus doesn't mean you'll always hit, and more Block doesn't mean you'll always avoid more attacks. Based on your luck, in one fight or another LUK may mean nothing more than 10 damage while STR/DEX/INT are not chance-based.

LUK doesn't seem OP to me as it is.

Post #: 509

4/13/2015 7:47:23

Baron Dante
Member

Hopeful Guy: Hm? If 1 point of M/P/M is 1% increase in defense, 100 should be 100%, instead of 120. Not that it would come to play when 100 M/P/M ignores Bonus and whatnot and just works.

I also used a 0 Bonus enemy there purely for the simplicity of it. Even with an enemy with some amount of Bonus will have the same basic gist where the later in the defense check chain something occurs, the less often it comes out as relevant.
What that basically would mean is that Block is marginally better than Dodge, which is marginally better than Parry, when considering just stats got from items.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 510

4/13/2015 9:00:54

Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)

Never mind, that was just me being stupid. :P

With regards to B/D/P, I suppose the only way to test it is to get a class like Cryptic and then just keep using the B/D/P skills and see how many of each one you get.

DF	Post #: 511

4/13/2015 9:13:17

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

Oh man, all the controversial discussions are starting over again (defense effects, Luk too stronk). xD

To rehash the conclusions: Defenses don't work as they should; according to Ash this is due to flash's RNG. Because of this, calculating their effects is really, really difficult. Luk is not as strong offensively as Str/Dex/Int, but it's very close (about a 2% difference on most classes) and when our base damage raises it probably will be better offensively (however at that point it will also presumably be easier to reach the cap of 50 Crit, past which Luk is of course not much use).

Ash confirmed that the defense from Luk functions as MPM. And 1 MPM = 1% chance to avoid.

@dracojan - What's your reason for saying that? As I said when I posted it, the numbers from that 1k-hits test I did would fit Luk's defenses not working, but do you have any further evidence? :O

AQW

Epic

Post #: 512

4/13/2015 10:15:55

Dracojan
Member

quote:

quote:

does it stack multiplicatively or additively? and how will it show - a miss, parry, dodge or block?

It's additively into the roll itself. For example if you have 40 Block you'd have a 30% chance to avoid that hit. (20% from the block + 10 from maxed Luk.) This occurs at every step, including M/P/M, and the very basic "did this miss because I moved really quickly!" roll that is done even if you have no defense, excluding the initial check for "can this hit?"

this is from ash where he says that the evasion bonus is added on everything. mpm and pdb, as well as the did the hit miss check.

^my reason is my testing of everything every once in a while. im making sure the stuff i write in my guide are as accurate as possible and im trying to exclude false information.

DF	Post #: 513

4/13/2015 10:23:55

Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)

200 LUK is better than 200 STR/INT/DEX offensively with certain weapons at the moment. The NSoD, for example, has a DPT of 93 (84-102). 200 STR/INT/DEX makes its DPT 113, whereas 200 LUK makes it 1.1(93+10)=113.3. Unless I'm missing something? Yes, it's close, and yes, it is only with a few weapons, but the fact that LUK is so close to STR/INT/DEX before the Bonus and miss rate is factored in makes LUK a bit OP IMO.

DF	Post #: 514

4/13/2015 10:26:41

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@dracojan - Oh wow, that's interesting... That means that the defense from Luk is a lot better than I thought. Or rather, it should be. I'm gonna do some more tests...

@Hopeful - What you're missing is that players will already have some amount of Crit:

1.4(93+20)=158.2
1.5(93+10)=154.5

The Bonus is also useless except against certain bosses with shields that don't put them over 100 MPM/200 BDP; against normal mobs we still, as ever, have more than enough from equipment alone to counter their defenses.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 4/13/2015 11:02:35 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 515

4/13/2015 13:39:28

Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)

Even if we take that one has that much Crit already, the 10% chance to miss and the Bonus (which is useful for certain bosses with high M/P/M) takes things way over STR/INT/DEX in my opinion..

DF	Post #: 516

4/13/2015 14:05:07

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

The defense is either not working or rendered much less useful than it seems because of odd RNG roll-mechanics. I'll link you to the results of a test I did where I hit, and was hit by, Tonvy (Envix?) 1,000 times to test defense mechanics: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=21936232 As I said in just my last post, if it were working how it evidently is supposed to, it would be much more powerful than I thought. But it clearly isn't.

And can you give any examples of bosses or normal mobs which have higher than 50-ish MPM/100-ish BDP passively? As I said, it's not useless against enemies with shields that give less than 100 MPM/200 BDP, however those generally only last a short time and are very rare anyway.

Please understand that I agree with you somewhat; I've said many times in this thread when we were discussing this stuff previously that I think Luk is superior to Str/Dex/Int as a character stat (that is, for stat builds, not for items) up until the cap of 50 Crit, and you also don't seem to be seeing the perk that it applies to all weapons equally, cutting farming time for weapons by 66% and/or allowing better aesthetic choices. But you're exaggerating it imo.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 4/13/2015 14:09:55 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 517

4/14/2015 14:45:58

VJ
Member

I like the many changes as others said it feels more like an RPG which is a good thing.

the only thing that bothers me is that I cannot summon the dragon at the start of the quest or while doing it.

before anyone says anything about the Fury skill glitch it has nothing to do with that.
I like being able to change the elemental skills mid fight.

because lets say I am fighting an enemy with a element that it will adsorb and it happens to be the same element that the dragon has been aligned with.

why couldn't there be some other fix to the glitch like making it have a cool down after summoning?

I ask because the death knight's shift skill has a cool down at the start of each fight so why couldn't that work with the Dragon's fury?

and before anyone states anything about the dragon shouldn't be able to change elemental attacks in mid fight.
we can change weapons for different ones with different elemental alignment and changing the Pet makes the game load those items as well.

I am not a Programmer and I know ash and the others do their best but the dragon thing kind of bugs me.

Post #: 518

4/14/2015 15:39:54

Brasca123
Member

@VJ. i'm not sure what the exact reason is, but there is a big possibility that the reason for that fix is that the dragon is really bugged and would take a whole lot of work for the staff to fix it, while it will be done someday, it won't be now, so they could not fix this issues because of the bugs that the dragon already have... that's my opinion anyway, you need to have word from the staff to confirm it though

Post #: 519

4/14/2015 15:48:03

Ash
Member

The game can't handle changing a pet or guest's element mid fight unless it's hard coded into the skills to do a certain element(s) that's not put on the pet or guest initially. Because the dragon pet and guest have to pull from another source in a totally different part of the game not even connected to its skills to get its element it's not doing things properly and people broke things trying to do exactly what you're wanting in battle. I'm not going to re-enable it in battle to avoid breaking things or people trying to break things.

Adding a cooldown to the start of the battle or just having the CD cross over all battles like some skills is a possible solution but right now our focus isn't on the guest. When we get to the point where we have the weeks necessary to restat the skills, recode the pet and guests, and then put all the pieces needed into the various parts we'll look at adjusting primal fury and other things. For now though, to avoid people trying to gimmick the system and to avoid people trying to break the game, and then post a bug report because the game broke, the pet and guest are going to remain how they are.

AQW

Post #: 520

4/14/2015 15:50:40

VJ
Member

@Brasca123
if that is the case then it will most likely be placed on the S.O.O.N list.. *sigh*

I cannot fault them for putting any major fixes for the dragon on the back burner seeing as they still have a lot of armors to bring up to date and many other things.
I guess its more of an inconvenience at the moment, I just hope they find away to allow us to change the element of the dragon in some way because that is the only reason I ever used the summon during battle or at the very least before the actual fight.

Ash

quote:

The game can't handle changing a pet or guest's element mid fight unless it's hard coded into the skills to do a certain element(s) that's not put on the pet or guest initially. Because the dragon pet and guest have to pull from another source in a totally different part of the game not even connected to its skills to get its element it's not doing things properly and people broke things trying to do exactly what you're wanting in battle. I'm not going to re-enable it in battle to avoid breaking things or people trying to break things.

I see, I wasn't trying to 'break' anything and didn't realize that was happening.

quote:

Adding a cooldown to the start of the battle or just having the CD cross over all battles like some skills is a possible solution but right now our focus isn't on the guest. When we get to the point where we have the weeks necessary to restat the skills, recode the pet and guests, and then put all the pieces needed into the various parts we'll look at adjusting primal fury and other things. For now though, to avoid people trying to gimmick the system and to avoid people trying to break the game, and then post a bug report because the game broke, the pet and guest are going to remain how they are.

The CD was what I was thinking, as after it was used the CD did last over 16 turns regardless if it was used in a different fight.
That's what I was thinking. just treat it as if it was already used and the cool down would last for 16 turns as normal.

quote:

When we get to the point where we have the weeks necessary to restat the skills, recode the pet and guests, and then put all the pieces needed into the various parts we'll look at adjusting primal fury and other things. For now though, to avoid people trying to gimmick the system and to avoid people trying to break the game, and then post a bug report because the game broke, the pet and guest are going to remain how they are.

that is understandable and I will not bother you about it as I know you and the others have so much on your plate at the moment and guest isn't as important as keeping the game running smoothly.

< Message edited by VJ -- 4/14/2015 16:04:16 >

Post #: 521

4/14/2015 16:43:06

dragon_monster
Member

quote:

I see, I wasn't trying to 'break' anything and didn't realize that was happening.

I wonder in what way those broke anything were the dragon skills not activating after you changed the element?

Post #: 522

4/14/2015 22:06:16

VJ
Member

@dragon_monster
many I am guessing was resummoning the Dragon to reset the dragon's skill while changing the element that is aligned with the Dragon will require you to summon the dragon again which would reset or remove the 16 turn CD that last ether 16 turns or 16 monster fights.

I personally never change the element unless I have to due to the fact that the enemy ether A. Adsorb(heal) or B. nullifies(no damage) damage.

I don't know if it is still breaking anything but one can change the element on the dragon and summon it as a pet and change the element but only as a pet.
Using the dragon as a pet this reduces the damage done by the pet Dragon compared to the normal 'guest' dragon and not sure if pet dragons are meant to lose power compared to their 'gust' summoning.

good example is Pet Dragon used during the The Challenge of Moocluckles and am facing the monster Medewwsa* does a max of 60 damage with Crit or min damage of 30 while my Hugrantula does a max damage of 50 with crit with a min of 30 - 35 without crit.

*it has a - 42 fire resistances

shouldn't the dragon do more damage instead of being outclassed by non-DA/Non- dc pet?

Ash I was wondering when you said

quote:

Because the dragon pet and guest have to pull from another source in a totally different part of the game not even connected to its skills to get its element it's not doing things properly and people broke things trying to do exactly what you're wanting in battle.

with the way the pet counter part works now it is doing exactly what I wanted the guest to be doing the entire time(so it didn't have to be summoned over and over again thus no cool down bug abuse).
changing the element was all I wanted to do so my question is would it be possible just to change the element like the baby dragon does?

I am not trying to bug(no pun intended) you to fix or do anything with the dragon as I know you have a lot on your plate just thought I would ask.

< Message edited by VJ -- 4/15/2015 8:36:28 >

Post #: 523

4/30/2015 16:59:45

unknownaka
Member

The mana nerf has made it extremley hard to play. I had to go and farm enough money to change my stats. My Mana Went from 1100ish all the way down to 725. Maybe you should change it so that each stat point gives 10 or every lvl you gain 15 or 10 mana per lvl. This makes some quests extremely long, and I don't want to do alchemy training for mana cuz it took me about 3 hours to get to max lvl for health. Are you going to make the WIS stat have less of an impact? I feel like this engine update made it incredibly hard to use third tier class as skills like in kathool adept where you have to spend 200 mana just to unlock the skill. That eats up about over a third of my mana since I only had 700.

Excess smilies removed. Please keep it to a limit of 3 smilies per post. It is considered spam.
For more information, please read the =AE= Comprehensive Forum Rules > Posting Behavior. ~Gingkage

< Message edited by Gingkage -- 4/30/2015 17:16:31 >

AQW

Post #: 524

4/30/2015 18:27:55

Alm Nullamors
Member

^Mana Potion training's going to be fixed soon to make these changes easier to adjust to.
Or use another tier 3 class like DragonLord.

_____________________________

The Dark ~~Dragon~~Lord Rises...

Post #: 525

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