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RE: =OS= Design Notes March 27th, 2015: Drakath's Final Form - Chaos Drakath!

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3/30/2015 21:10:45   
The Jop
Member

It's not even about free players, it's about balance. These broken cards will be on free chaos characters in the future and cause a lot of problems for other elements.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 51
3/30/2015 21:31:16   
Elite Tuga
Member

The Jop is right in one view... Things need to remain as balanced possible if a game wants to stay fair for both types of players, it's called fair play.

Unfortunately, some games need money and they will do anything in order to attract investors. Dev's in most cases have to come up with such powerful content that stands out from the ordinary to attract players who are willing to pay in order to acquire "more power." Otherwise Dev's could struggle slightly more making money to pay for their expenses & such if they don't spice things up within a certain time period.

C. Drakath being really strong to me simply means 'evolution' and with time maybe we will get other strong competent characters for both paid and free players, it's just a matter of time to whiteness that because obviously Chaos Drakath won't be the only strong Chaos character available. CC packs could also get an update with a few more special modern cards for each element if Dev's are willing.

Overall, we have to stay positive it's too soon to tell what the future holds, but it looks like Chaos will be the more dominant & we can see a possible slight nerf to a couple cards like Regen but it would be sad to see too much of a decrease in Chaos power since most players who acquired Chaos Drakath paid with real money to now become mediocre in PvP battle system & that could make investors furious & avoid paying for SG characters in the future. Which i'm sure OS Staff do NOT want to see happen.
Epic  Post #: 52
3/30/2015 21:34:09   
The Jop
Member

I just said it's not about free players...the cards Chaos Drakath has are going to be on free chaos characters in the future, which is unbalanced. And old characters shouldn't just be obsolete because of power creep.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 53
3/30/2015 21:44:12   
Elite Tuga
Member

quote:

I just said it's not about free players...the cards Chaos Drakath has are going to be on free chaos characters in the future, which is unbalanced. And old characters shouldn't just be obsolete because of power creep.


I didn't see your previous post as I was clearly making mine simultaneously. Anyway Dev's could limit specific cards to balance the game more like they have in the past with other older cards like Greater Heal & Sacrifice ect, so we don't know yet until we see what happens in a few weeks or months. We can only judge about balance after we know wether or not they will be CC available.

This will be a test.. If Dev's don't balance Chaos for free players then it's because they clearly see that 'paying players' deserve what they get for their money, on the other hand if they do otherwise then that goes to show us that they care for balance regardless of paying or not for Characters to fair out the game. Lets see if they will balance the cards first like we have suggested on the 'mechanics thread' before we proceed debating further.

< Message edited by Elite Tuga -- 3/30/2015 21:45:41 >
Epic  Post #: 54
3/30/2015 23:23:10   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Think about it like this we all for The most part want OS to get going at full speed a lack of paying players caused us to develop very slowly. Now each person willing to buy sgs to get chaos drakath is just one step forward to getting more staff ;)

From my math it took about 7 - 8 weeks for warlic to do chaos. If OS players keep giving them an insentive to work on the game we could start to get actual features that help better the pvp element.

Now once elemental resistance is added pvp is going to change a lot water is going to suck more though since it's weak against energy and ice but nuetral is strong against chaos.

I had a feeling OS would get some pretty cool stuff this year I expect it in May but the sooner te better is always good.

On another note I wanted to get you guys opinion on if chaos flux should make a character dual elemental?

< Message edited by Gorillo Titan -- 3/31/2015 0:27:45 >
Post #: 55
3/30/2015 23:26:11   
The Jop
Member

Chair Drakath?

You really have to watch what you type.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 3/30/2015 23:27:23 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 56
3/30/2015 23:49:08   
Elite Tuga
Member

I hope you guys have been talking about Oversoul to your friends.. This is the best time (since Chaos arrived) to get them around, we need as much players back as possible. I have personally been promoting about OS in AQW in many channels/servers and I have had good results. Imagine more people doing similar things.. every little would really help entice players.


P S: Jop please respond to my PM, I sent you hours ago. Thanks.
Epic  Post #: 57
3/31/2015 0:02:57   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

Drakath is so OP he can beat anything without even getting up from his chair.

Chair Drakath would make a nice house item too. :D Auto-correct sometimes works in mysterious ways.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 58
3/31/2015 0:26:19   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Can we get on point!!!

@tuga one of the AQW mod/artist posted a screenshot of you promoting OS in AQW a few weeks ago.

Should chaos flux count as making a character dual element or not?
Post #: 59
3/31/2015 0:33:41   
The Jop
Member

We were just trying to have some fun. Chaos flux could make any character dual element, though I don't know if they would count it in a dual element tournament.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 60
3/31/2015 0:42:46   
Gorillo Titan
Member

I just noticed something you need to fix on the wiki go to the beginners guide and fill out the chaos part.

http://oversoulgame.wikidot.com/os-beginner-s-guide

Also anyone else noticed bandit drakath says prince drakath in his battle quote?


Also when it says mods keep the game productive what do they mean?

The whole beginner guide could use some work.
Post #: 61
3/31/2015 1:05:45   
The Jop
Member

Oh, alright, only Asuka can edit that so I'll tell him.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 62
3/31/2015 3:08:41   
Ninjaty
Member

quote:

I just said it's not about free players...the cards Chaos Drakath has are going to be on free chaos characters in the future, which is unbalanced. And old characters shouldn't just be obsolete because of power creep.

Now I will try to take into account all the factors that can explain why Drakath is so powerful, so bear with me for a moment.

First of all, we have to take his element into account. Chaos is a thing that should be mysterious and powerful, something that all elements should struggle with a little, on account of it not actually being one of them, but rather another entity altogether.

Secondly, we have to take into account his rank. An Apprentice character is going to be weaker than a Veteran, and a Veteran weaker than a Master. Chaos Drakath is a Legendary. He is the highest rank of an element that is supposed to have a small advantage over all the other major elements.

Thirdly, he is a new character. Like it or not, but we have already seen the power creep in OS, as my Skexis Fiend will basically never stand a chance against newer characters, without some serious CC and luck involved. The Skexis Fiend compensates for this through it's evolutions, but that doesn't matter, because that specific character has already been made obsolete. BUUUUT, that is also an Apprentice character, and so we have to ask ourselves, should an Apprentice really have the ability to stand up to a Legendary? Or should they rather be balanced towards their own ranks? Regardless, this is an example of an obsolete character, but that's why I keep it, because it has that "alpha feel" to it.


And finally, it's Drakath. Sure, it may not mean much to you, but he was still given a little special treatment because of it, similar to how Dragons get special treatment from being Dragons. All those things, while maybe not giving him too much power on their own, adds up because they stack together, and suddenly he's become a force to be reckoned with. These are all factors that made him what he is now, and I may even have left out some that I just can't think of right now.



As for the argument of "his cards are going to be on free characters", who says they are? Could it be, that just because it's Drakath, he could've been given slightly more powerful variants of the common Chaos cards? After all, he's not just supposed to be a Chaos character, he's supposed to be THE Chaos character. As the Champion of Chaos he's supposed to be the very best the element has to offer.

Back when I first fought a Black Dragon, I found it to be insanely powerful, and I stood absolutely no chance against it. If you had asked me back then, I would have jumped straight on your Nerf Train. But instead of complaining about it, I decided to challenge it, and I spent a lot of fights getting familiar with it's power. Eventually I found the way to beat it. Chaos Drakath is just the new Black Dragon, and while he seems intimidating now, that's just because people have yet to dedicate the necessary time to learn how to defeat him. Once that strategy becomes common knowledge, everyone and their grandmother will be able to do it.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 3/31/2015 3:25:58 >
Post #: 63
3/31/2015 3:41:19   
The Jop
Member

And making characters outright more powerful than all others is a good thing in your eyes? Regen is insanely broken, there's no argument to make about it. Bash/Thrash did more 1 damage for the same cost as 200/500s, but renew is over 2 times more powerful than the previously strongest heal.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 3/31/2015 4:10:42 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 64
3/31/2015 4:17:55   
Ninjaty
Member

I have also suggested removing one, and I did point out earlier that two are overkill. If he is limited to one, then that one Regen can start being compared to other characters who usually have more than one healing card, with the lower cost compensating for only having one heal in relation to his power. Maybe it's cost could be upped by a point or two, but overall, I feel removing one would make him all the more managable in PvP.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 3/31/2015 4:21:43 >
Post #: 65
3/31/2015 4:27:58   
The Jop
Member

One's still broken. Queen Aegea only has one greater heal and she's considered one of the most powerful characters (and, again, regen is more than twice as powerful as greater heal). To make it on par with Greater Heal in terms of energy for healing you would have to make it 8 energy, but since it takes 2 more turns to get to completion, then they could lower the cost to 7 or 6.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 3/31/2015 4:40:29 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 66
3/31/2015 5:29:17   
Ninjaty
Member

You say that the two more turns justify it costing 7 or 6 rather than your proposed 8, but who has determined that it needs to be even with Greater Heal? Just like how Greater Heal is much more powerful than Heal, who is to say that this is not meant to be much more powerful than Greater Heal?

And who determined that 2 turns must equal 2 energy? Seems that spending a turn is more costly than spending energy, so couldn't one argue that the two turns could be worth 2 energy each?

What is fair in terms of spending energy for an effect that resolves over a number of turns, is highly dependant on opinion. I'd say that the longer it takes for the effect to resolve, and the smaller the payout each turn, justifies a significantly smaller cost per point of healing, due to the fact that the number of turns it takes to fully resolve can be considered a part of the cost.

With all that said, it could go up to 6 if absolutely necessary, but I still think just removing one would be the ideal solution. There's just someting appealing about seeing him brush off the damage you just dealt him, and slowly healing while still continuing his assault. One could imagine that it can only be activated if you do not have it's effect active, or that it will just reset the effect if activated again while it's still active.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 3/31/2015 7:56:26 >
Post #: 67
3/31/2015 9:06:47   
The Jop
Member

Chaos already has more powerful attack cards than Light, so it doesn't make sense that it should have the most powerful heal as well.

Of course "there's something appealing about seeing him brush off the damage you just dealt him, and slowly healing while still continuing his assault." It's not balanced though, and that's the whole point of this overly long conversation.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 3/31/2015 9:09:07 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 68
3/31/2015 9:13:18   
Gorillo Titan
Member

The funny thing is the pvp isn't even that good we all have the same health and first turn pretty much guarantees a victory lol If you wanna complain about unbalance ask thing to fix these things so you can actually use some type of strategy instead of just spamming CC to win fights. lol

Elemental resistance gonna make it worse if they don't add stats since some characters are just going to be DOA when fighting an element they are weak against.


At least chaos doesn't have any amazing pierce card. We also have to realize that this game hasn't had a rebalance of elements since it came out waric fixing chaos flux could possibly lead to him fixing other cards but we won't know till it happens.
Wish they still had the bug forum so warlic could tell us what new he added to the game like he use to.




Also while warlic is fixing cards can he change tree of life to work in between the use of shield cards?

< Message edited by Gorillo Titan -- 3/31/2015 10:53:37 >
Post #: 69
4/2/2015 20:27:38   
KaydenWaffles
Member

Chaos! About time. But I think it's time for some Legion stuff from Dage The Evil! I would really love to see Thanatos (original one not evolved from AQW) as a character. And blade master. This would be so cool. Oh and Paragon!
AQW  Post #: 70
4/3/2015 1:03:18   
Blackshock
Member

Chaos Drakath is pretty boss tier, so I understand why he's too powerful. That and it kinda justifies his price tag and status as a legendary. Anyway, if it bothers you that much, well just hope they balance the future chaos characters so that they'll be more in line with the other elements. We can keep chaos drakath as he is since it's a power level rightfully fitting for him. Just because he's absurdly powerful doesn't mean that all future chaos characters will be as absurdly powerful. XD
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 71
4/3/2015 11:19:35   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

Regen is just plain dumb, I thought for sure it was bugged when it came out and that it was supposed to do 100 per turn/400 total, which would make it relatively bad but in no way prevent Chaos from being relatively good.

Regen definitely needs to be nerfed, its benefits should be at least halved or its cost should be at least doubled.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 72
4/3/2015 11:23:31   
Gorillo Titan
Member

I'm still not going to log on but just have to say this then im gone again currently working on the list of characters and the abilities I think would make each character unique even if they have the same deck or if they have bad regular decks.

4 Gorillo Titan 1679
5 clinton 1576
6 Elite Tuga 1462
7 Kilio100 1271
8 Aata 1266
9 Axel 1214
10 -Karmageddon- 1133

Still a lot more wins to go. Would be cool if someone did it before next Friday if they decide to add Easter characters.

ALso heres an example of the one of the new abilities im working on its for Chaos Drakath "Chaos Spreads" Each turn while fighting chaos drakath the enemies chaos charge goes up by 1 once it reaches a high enough number you can use a new cards. Called Chaos Champion which turns all chaos energy into damage towards the enemy 100 energy for each chaos point or it heals them for 100. 50/50 chance of it doing either one.

Takes 20 turns to be used at full power can also be a huge mistake if it heals the enemy. Give chaos characters your fighting an advantage since they get 6 energy per turn instead of 5.

CC capable.

< Message edited by Gorillo Titan -- 4/3/2015 11:25:49 >
Post #: 73
4/3/2015 12:24:12   
The Jop
Member

@TFP
Seriously. It couldn't have been intentional, could it? It's like they just don't care about the game at all anymore if they release something that ridiculously overpowered.

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 74
4/3/2015 14:55:45   
Ninjaty
Member

@above: Again, I would like to remind you that in the past, other cards have been considered game breaking. The solution was to release more characters with the same card. Back when Founder Champion was released, several people refused to even fight against it, or requested that Greater Heal wasn't used, simply because it seemed unbeatable at the time because of that card. Back in the very early days of the game, a few poisons were more or less a guaranteed victory.

For all we know, in a few months we can be talking about how Regen is just another card, desite no change having been made to it at all.

If, years from now, you're asked to name a powerful character in OS, if Drakath isn't the one that immediately comes to mind as being one of the most (if not THE most) powerful characters, THEN I'd say it would prove they don't care about the game. If Drakath wasn't a worthy candidate for being the most powerful character of all time, it would be an insult to his character and the entire element of Chaos.


This may just be the first step towards actually balancing the game. After all, for anything lower than a Master to even stand a chance against a Legendary, that has never seemed balanced to me at all. There are a lot of factors to Drakath's power, and there are many characters they could release in the future with the same kind of justification for being extremely powerful.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 4/3/2015 15:01:48 >
Post #: 75
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