RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX


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12/29/2016 10:10:15

Baron Dante
Member

Well, I guess that's true.

Good question.
Uh, I'm too lazy for proper testing, so...
Using only the weapon of choice (One of the stable lightsabers, +14 INT)
ShadowMage Final should be 125% + Crit.
Without ShadowHeart Bracer, it's 233 damage.
With it, it's 326 damage.
That's 175% damage.

*sigh*
Mage, why can't you have multi-hit moves?

ShadowWarrior:
Double/Triple is 75% per hit.
Without, this is 70 damage.
With it, 117 damage.
This is roughly 125% per hit.

So... it seems it adds 50% to each hit.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 251

12/29/2016 10:46:25

Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade

I guess you should've taken Shadow Rogue instead of Shadow Mage.

...Please don't tell me that the artifact buffs trinkets too. Elemental Unity would become the universal destroyer of worlds instead of targeting only specific races.

DF	Post #: 252

12/29/2016 11:09:57

Baron Dante
Member

I'd prefer Defender's Cannon instead, but no, it does not buff them. (I checked to be safe, of course)

Trinkets don't count as a part of a class, as can be seen with various passive buffs: Paladin, Necromancer, DeathKnight, Atealan classes and Ranger have passives that don't interact with trinkets in any way.
So RiftWalker doesn't lose the initial boost it has on turns when Healing potions or trinkets are used, and Ranger won't gain or lose the boosts it has accumulated. The rest don't get extra ticks in their respective counters.

So, how good really is the 50%+ base addition to all hits? Or rather, would it have been better if it worked like Boost and just was a 50% extra damage?

ShadowMage would've been better off, as I don't think any of it's moves deal less than 100%, and a few do more than that.
ShadowRogue is pretty obviously gonna be better off with addition: Rapid Attack essentially doubles in strength, Final moreso.
ShadowWarrior is a bit more complicated.
Warrior only gets better boosts from Double and Triple, though it does use them a lot, but on the other hand Final, and especially Power would gain decent buffs.
With base addition, Power becomes 225%, Final becomes 175%+Crit, Double becomes 250%, and Triple becomes 375% (!).
With boost, Power becomes 262,5%, Final becomes 187,5%+Crit, Double becomes 225%, and Triple becomes 337,5%.

I think base addition is the better option, tbh. Final is only marginally worse, and your optimal Damage cycle is probably pretty close to cycling Power + Double + Triple, with maybe throwing PowerBoost/Shield over Power, in which case, base addition is about 25% better off (For burst offense, with Final, boost would be better I guess)

AQW

Epic

Post #: 253

12/29/2016 12:26:59

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

quote:

unless you splurge on P/D/B items and reach the 200 cap. ...Does that actually override medium amounts (i.e. something that's not Aisha-level) of Bonus?

Nope. If you have 200 PDB and the enemy's got 20 Bonus, they have a 15% chance to hit you, because PDB isn't quite linear; it's actually at 186 PDB that you get 99% chance to not be hit against 0 Bonus, not 200, and the ~160 that the 20 Bonus puts you at is roughly 85%. PDB is confusing.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 12/29/2016 12:40:14 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 254

12/29/2016 12:43:49

Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade

Every time you post I seem to learn something new. How did you determine that the cut-off was exactly 186, and not 184 or something? Also, if you have 200 PDB and the enemy has 20 Bonus, wouldn't your defenses effectively become 160 PDB, meaning that you're 26 points off from the 99% dodge chance (and the enemy would have a 13% chance to hit you, not a 15%)? Wait, does the built-in 1% chance to get hit stack additively with the enemy's hit chance or is it a separate roll? This is really confusing.

Well, on the plus side, I guess that means my Cryptic reaches the PDB cap against 0 Bonus enemies with Illusionary Veil, 31/30/29 P/D/B, and 200 LUK.

On a side note, if an enemy has less than -100% Boost and you have more than 100 resistance to their attack's element, would you still take damage?

Edit: Also, does the same thing apply to M/P/M (i.e. 100 MPM doesn't override Bonus)?

< Message edited by Epic Durian -- 12/29/2016 13:03:13 >

DF	Post #: 255

12/29/2016 13:03:28

Baron Dante
Member

^It's just a matter of math, really.

And yeah, that's what happens.
You can see this with Akriloth I believe. Get a decent Fire resistance (41+) and activate Frozen Claymore's special. Then have a SnugglePanda use both of it's Boost lowering moves, dropping the enemy to -160% Boost.

If you lack SnugglePanda, I'll hopefully be able to provide character IDs for 2 of those soon in a few weeks :P

AQW

Epic

Post #: 256

12/29/2016 13:26:25

Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade

A matter of math? I'm okay with numbers, but I'm just confused on how the cap was determined to be exactly 186 PDB. Wouldn't the hit chance difference between 186 and 184 be so small that it would be pretty hard to determine where the cap was?

Huh, you're right about the -Boost thing. I was too lazy to grab +Fire gear for Akriloth, so I just waltzed over to the Un-Possible Crawler, let it lower my Boost to -150%, and then whacked it with a Darkness weapon. It's a pretty weird edge case-y scenario, but it's pretty neat to know.

I actually do have SnugglePanda. I ordered it a few months ago, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with it. My only gripe is that all the moves hit once, meaning it doesn't work well with on-hit weapons. Aside from that though, it's one of my favorites. The nuke does 450% base damage, not 300%, the DoT lasts for 5 turns instead of 3, and all the debuffs are applied on the enemy even if you miss or the enemy has >100 Immobility resistance (Mritha 2.0). For a defensive player like me, it's a godsend.

DF	Post #: 257

12/29/2016 15:13:26

Baron Dante
Member

Well I mean, once you know the math behind it, you can just build a calculator for it, and mash numbers in until it reveals the exact thing you want. So you have 184, and it shows it's not 99% yet. You change it to 186, and now it does.

Oh right, I tried to overcomplicate the -Boost thing. I knew there was a way to work it with Un-Possible Crawler, but I was just thinking Paladin, instead of, y'know, doing it to the enemy instead.

Yeah SnugglePanda is one of the best classes, really. As soon as I get my secondary to have it, it's time to see how stupid I can make it be.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 258

12/29/2016 15:28:20

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

quote:

A matter of math? I'm okay with numbers, but I'm just confused on how the cap was determined to be exactly 186 PDB. Wouldn't the hit chance difference between 186 and 184 be so small that it would be pretty hard to determine where the cap was?

Like Baron said, formulae and confirming predictions.

quote:

Also, if you have 200 PDB and the enemy has 20 Bonus, wouldn't your defenses effectively become 160 PDB, meaning that you're 26 points off from the 99% dodge chance (and the enemy would have a 13% chance to hit you, not a 15%)? Wait, does the built-in 1% chance to get hit stack additively with the enemy's hit chance or is it a separate roll? This is really confusing.

Well, it's 186 because of how the 3 stats interact, not as a hard-coded breakpoint. But, adding Bonus simplifies it somewhat, and negates some of the pseudo-multiplicativeness, and the more Bonus the more stable. With enough Bonus, it does correctly treat 200 as the breakpoint. But, most enemies don't have near that much and when they do, most people don't stack enough PDB (like, 2x Cryptic Shields :P) for it to matter. So, to keep it simple, I say that 186 is the effective breakpoint. Like I've said before, I don't even really attempt to explain PDB in detail because my god, it's so convoluted.

quote:

Edit: Also, does the same thing apply to M/P/M (i.e. 100 MPM doesn't override Bonus)?

Yep. Though MPM is a single stat so it doesn't have the confusing shenanigans of PDB; 100 MPM against 20 Bonus = ~21% hit rate (because base 1% + Bonus).

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 12/29/2016 15:38:24 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 259

12/29/2016 15:29:38

Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade

Ah, that's true. I was thinking that you would have to manually record the dodge chance at various values of PDB and see when it became 99%, but you could also graph it or something.

I think I know what you're planning to do for SnugglePanda. It's a shame that you can only have 2 player guests for specific bosses, but at the moment I think you can already have 3 SPs in your party if you set your default class as SP, and then invite another Baron Dante and my character.

Edit: Thanks again, Sakurai! Have you ever considered making a guide out of your findings? The current stat guides are out-of-date or have incorrect/vague information.

Double edit: Also, would you mind posting the formulas or sending it to me in a PM? I'd like to play around with it when I get the time.

< Message edited by Epic Durian -- 12/29/2016 15:40:33 >

DF	Post #: 260

12/29/2016 15:39:50

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

Well, I actually PMed dracojan quite a while ago and he said he was going to update his stats guide with updated hit mechanics... But, I guess he never got around to it.

Also, I only just now finished editing that post. xD It's hard trying to determine how much people will understand, so how I should explain it...

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 12/29/2016 15:41:06 >

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Epic

Post #: 261

12/29/2016 16:51:04

Baron Dante
Member

@ED: I'm sure you could get triple Panda right now, but I want to make this as painless as possible, so having my own triple Panda seems like the obvious choice. :P
That, and since I only have 1 Panda for the time being, I'd still have to either find a third one, or get 1 extra anyways, so might as well go all the way, treat the Panda Hoodies as late Christmas presents and roll with it.
Some of the things I choose to do...

@Sakurai: I'd go for the full explanation. If they don't understand, they'll hopefully ask, and this can help further clarify the explanation for the future.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 262

12/30/2016 2:09:37

Skullkyopi
Member

This is why I love you folks. Tested calculations, ridiculous number crunching and mischievous build-making. You and I, Epic Durian, seem to think on the same wavelength for things to exploit. Sakurai, I eagerly await your guide. I look forward to what you're planning, Baron Dante.

Post #: 263

12/30/2016 7:03:39

SonicTbear
Member

If you need a SP, I just equipped mines.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 264

12/30/2016 9:14:36

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Baron - Well, having to make 17 posts tying to explain and clarify a point is excessive when I could simplify it and have people understand what it means, at least, if not the specifics of why. I only have so much free time. xD

AQW

Epic

Post #: 265

12/30/2016 18:54:15

Emrys
Member

Any suggestions on which to buy: Icebound Revenant, Kathool Adept, or entropy? I'm looking for the class I can enjoy the most, not necessarily the one that carves through the game the fastest (I already have DmK for that

)

AQW

Post #: 266

12/30/2016 21:26:28

Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade

Personally speaking, IR is my favorite, followed by EnTropy and finally KAA. It's the only one of the three classes that lacks a heal, but it also has the best defenses (Fortitude of Frost -> Whatever x2 -> Frigid Chill -> Whatever -> Chains of Ice -> Fortitude of Frost -> Whatever x2 -> Frigid Chill -> Whatever -> Icy Grip -> Whatever x2 -> repeat, except you'll get hit once because Icy Grip will be on cooldown). Unfortunately, it's not a 100% loopable rotation, but it's more than sufficient for most bosses.

Revenant's Curse is an amazing skill, especially since it works on most ice enemies too. You don't even need Stan to double your DoTs (though he's still the best pet in my opinion). Speaking of which, Long Winter is my favorite IR skill. That scaling DoT just rips through enemies. IR also has pretty strong non-DoT damage with Icebound Fury -> Reaver's Desire/Razor Ice.

I know you didn't mention it, but Ancient Exosuit is a pretty fun class to mess around with too. It has good initial damage, but its main strength is in outlasting its opponent with strong HP/MP and defensive skills.

DF	Post #: 267

12/30/2016 22:15:30

elite dark slayer
Member

This skill, 'Whatever' sounds powerful indeed, if you need to use it so often. I like Entropy, personally, since it's the least element-locked of the three classes, and it's powerful defensively as well as offensively. However, the way the class art is done, I find it difficult to use my Doomed Dragon Amulet Scythe of the Elements, which is my only problem with the class. Oh, and the animations are nice on Entropy, whereas the animations for the Icebound Revenant are a bit lacklustre. Kathool Adept is pretty nice, power-wise, and MP isn't really a problem since I put 95 points into Wisdom and I'm level 80, but the element lock on Red Tide, which is the go-to skill for slightly weaker monsters (I usually manage 500-600 damage with that, at least, on monsters with no resistances), makes it significantly harder to use on quests which have monsters with water resistance, since my damage becomes significantly reduced. All in all, if you're looking for the most fun class to generally use out of the three, I'd say go for Entropy, since it's not locked to water or ice (I mean, it does more damage if you use darkness, but you don't need to, really), providing the most general utility, it has a reliable heal, which grants it an amazing defense, along with it's other defensive skills (reducing enemy damage, increasing personal defense...), and the animations are spectacular.

AQW

Post #: 268

12/30/2016 22:37:12

Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade

Yep, Whatever is certainly the strongest skill of IR. Without it, you'd hardly have any damage worth mentioning.

I'd argue that having -40 Darkness on the enemy is pretty important in terms of damage. At the least, it's certainly nothing to brush off as something that's just nice to have. IR may be Ice-locked, but there's barely anything that has more than 200 Ice resistance. On the other hand, there's a ton of Undead that have too much Darkness resistance, meaning that EnTropy effectively loses almost a third of its potential non-DoT damage. If you want versatility, I'd just go with the Exosuit because it gets a +Boost skill, not a -Element skill, and thus remains completely independent of elemental weaknesses.

DF	Post #: 269

12/31/2016 4:27:34

elite dark slayer
Member

Let's say you face a darkness resistant normal (non-boss) monster with Entropy. Sure, you lose out on a significant damage buff with the darkness resistance, but that only really applies when you're facing things with a lot of HP. Simply switching to a non-darkness weapon, you can immediately use putrefying being, which hits nine times (so anything with less than a 100% resistance to immobility will probably be stunned, for three turns). If it's still not dead? Rotting touch should kill it stone dead. In two turns, you've done 540% damage, if the numbers on the encyclopaedia are correct, and it's likely you've sustained no damage, using only 34 mana. In other words, for each mana point, you have done 15.9% (3 s.f.) damage.

Let's look at the numbers for an Icebound Revenant, against an ice resistant normal (non-boss) monster. With your highest damaging skills being Razor Ice and Reaver's Desire, you're dealing 685% damage in two turns, for a total of 66 mana. For each mana point, you have done 10.4% (3 s.f.) damage. And you've still probably sustained damage, since neither of those skills serve a defensive purpose.

From those numbers, and from personal experience, I can tell you that the average monster can survive, at most, two hits from either of these two classes. What does this mean? Icebound Revenant is spending much more mana for a worse result (since it's sustaining damage).

How do they match up on boss fights? Well, Icebound Revenant does not have a heal, instead having a few damage reduction (both straight-up damage reduction and -BtH) and defense increasers (one M/P/M increaser). Admittedly, this is where the Icebound Revenant does begin to shine, as you can use your enemy's ice resistance and stack DoTs. The skill which gives a resistance to immobility, however, gives only 30% resistance, for a specific duration, making it a hail Mary skill at best.

Entropy has one of the best heals in the game, and also has a load of defensive skills, though they might be slightly less effective than those of the Icebound Revenant (-80 boost to the enemy, +70 B/D/P to you). Defense-wise, however, it's nigh unstoppable, as the heal, paired with the damage reduction, can bring up your health easily and quickly (Stan the ScanOrb makes this even better). It might deal slightly less damage than an Icebound Revenant (remember, we're still facing a Darkness resistant boss for Entropy and an Ice-resistant boss for Icebound Revenant), but the defense is probably more solid.

So, facing bosses resistant to their respective elements, Icebound Revenant has more power (probably, I'm not in the mood to number-crunch it, but that's the impression I got from the numbers), but a weaker defense, and Entropy has slightly less power, but makes up for it with a greatly increased survivability. So, I'd rate them roughly equal.

However, facing bosses with no resistances to their respective elements, the Icebound Revenant's resistance-reducing skill becomes much worse, allowing Entropy, with it's -60 to Darkness, to do a great amount of damage. This allows the Entropy's score to have a greater increase in relation to the previous boss than the Icebound Revenant. Thus, I think that Entropy just might be a bit better than the Icebound Revenant in boss fights where there are no resistances to their respective elements.

Also, Entropy has nice animations, which make it much more fun to see in action than an Icebound Revenant, in my opinion.

P.S. I'm not brushing off the -60 Darkness on the enemy as 'something that's just nice to have', I'm pointing out that on short fights, it tends to be rather unnecessary.

AQW

Post #: 270

12/31/2016 11:50:52

Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade

True, EnTropy is more mana-efficient, but how often does that actually come into play? I've never had to manage my mana nor use a potion except against Hard Mode Extreme bosses (Sir Ruppenwaffles), and those guys deal enough damage that I'd rather not use EnTropy's defenses. Don't get me wrong, -80 Boost is fantastic (though usually worse than a blind), as is the 9-hit stun, but after just 6 turns you're left high and dry (not like the shield's really going to do that much). IR, on the other hand, can stay protected for 20+ turns with a barely non-loopable rotation.

For clearing normal mobs, speed is not always key. IR is capable of handling most situations without taking damage if you focus on defense first. Unlike EnTropy, it has a reliable shield and thus stays protected against all enemies at the same time. EnTropy ends up needing to use the heal every fight if the enemies hit hard enough.

I'm not sure what you mean about IR's self-buff being only a hail Mary skill. EnTropy doesn't even have a +Immobility skill, and it's a lot more vulnerable to getting hit than IR is because it doesn't have a good shield or blind.

I don't know if EnTropy actually does have better survivability. It has a strong heal, but it has poorer defenses so it gets hit more. IR focuses on not taking damage in the first place but lacks an emergency heal. I think it's pretty situational, because it might be more important to be able to soak up damage or to avoid getting hit.

As for bosses that don't have Ice or Darkness resistances, I'm not sure who would take the lead in terms of damage. IR's main source of damage as the fight progresses is Long Winter, whose DoT just gets flat-out doubled in most circumstances, whereas EnTropy relies on Rotting Touch. Long Winter does more damage with 0 STR/DEX/INT/LUK, but EnTropy might beat it if you invest enough stats into offense.

EnTropy's animations don't really appeal to me. I prefer IR's fast and clean-looking ones. Also, this isn't really about the skillset, but EnTropy can't trigger weapon specials with the Attack button. That doesn't really matter too much, but if you like playing around with the Blade of Destiny or something, it's a bit of a disappointment. On the other hand, EnTropy is also way better at triggering on-hit weapons like Warlic's Staff, so it pretty much evens out.

DF	Post #: 271

1/1/2017 6:26:23

elite dark slayer
Member

I suppose it does boil down to your stats and playstyle. If Entropy does do more damage on an offensive build, then that might be why my Entropy is more efficient than my (now sold) Icebound Revenant, since my build is almost pure offense (200 Str, 100 Luk, 95 Wis). About the immobility thing, 30% resistance isn't all that great, because that less than a 1/3 chance of resisting the stun, which is negligible if you're fighting, say, Baron Valtrith. Don't you get tired of the IR animations, though?

< Message edited by elite dark slayer -- 1/3/2017 2:19:23 >

AQW

Post #: 272

1/1/2017 11:14:59

Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade

The +30 Immobility is just a perk, not the main reason to use Icebound Fury. Enemies that stun you are few and far between. Also, it's not like you'd have 0 Immobility to begin with. I have 43 Immobility without ever having focused on that resistance with my default gear setup, and before that I had 57 with the Fierce DragonLord Helm. There's a much bigger advantage from going from 43 to 73 than from 0 to 30, relatively speaking (one of the reasons Ash reworked DragonLord's Earth Dragon Spirit and removed the +50 All).

I do get tired of IR's animations, but no more than I do any other class's. Personally speaking, I'd rank EnTropy's animations on the same level as those of Ancient Exosuit and every other class. If anything, I'd prefer the Exosuit for having faster ones.

< Message edited by Solanaceae -- 1/1/2017 11:15:24 >

DF	Post #: 273

1/1/2017 12:38:03

pumloo
Member

So, uhh, will ninja ever be getting a visual revamp? I mean, I like the armour, don't get me wrong. It's my favourite class. But it seems to be kind of outdated in comparison to its visually updated counterparts.

AQW

Post #: 274

1/1/2017 12:49:30

Corverous
Member

Have we gotten word on when Archivist will be finished? I heard that it was still unfinished, which is a shame since it's already 2017, and the Archivist is my favorite Time class by far (it's not edgy or godlike in appearance like some of the other ones). Shouldn't the calendar classes be given more work time since people are paying $20 for the calendar to get the class.

Post #: 275

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