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=DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback

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9/1/2017 17:23:12   
DragonFable Boxcat

DragonFable 14.1.0 is here!

Changelog can be found here.

Addendum: Ninja venom DoTs also now do your weapon element (at time of applying) damage instead of always poison. The initial hit is still poison locked though.

Defenses now scale out of 120 instead of 180, but MPM and BPD have different rolls.
Defenses now scale out of 150.

Glancing blows no longer apply effects (Stuns, DoTs, etc.)

< Message edited by Verlyrus -- 9/2/2017 13:55:01 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 1
9/1/2017 17:34:07   
Legendary Nightshade

Mkay, I was running through quests with ECC, and I didn't notice the change until just now. I did, however, notice that crit damage seems to be stacking per hit:

With 61 DEX, 232 LUK, and a Soulforged Dagger (total of 112 per hit and 1.732 multiplier), I used Mad Chickencow, which hit for 23 noncrit. The crit damage, however, went from 45 at the first hit to 96 at one of the last hits.

Edit: Same goes for Zeuster, starting with a crit of 44 and ending with a crit of 90.

Edit 2: Has been fixed.

< Message edited by Solanaceae -- 9/1/2017 17:45:28 >
DF  Post #: 2
9/1/2017 17:47:58   

Look forward to testing all of this! Just some things I've noticed so far (just regarding crit):

The base crit was not adjusted, so we're only getting 5 (instead of 10)
Crit from LUK was also not adjusted, we were getting 1% chance per 20 points, now we're getting 1% chance every 40 points

These are pretty significant, for a LUK based build you're missing out on 7%+ in some instances.
Post #: 3
9/1/2017 17:53:44   
Legendary Nightshade

Oh, huh, you're right. Looks like I actually lost crit, going from 33% (and 220 LUK) to what's now 76/200, or 38%. A 6% loss.

One thing that I noticed was that the DNs said Paladin's Barrier of Sanctuary now affects MPM. Didn't it before?
DF  Post #: 4
9/1/2017 17:57:34   
DragonFable Boxcat

Keep in mind that a LUK based build should be doing more damage with crits too.
AQ MQ  Post #: 5
9/1/2017 18:07:58   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)

Quick balance comment, haven't really been doing much testing yet, but I think LUK has now become quite seriously overpowered in comparison to the other stats. Here's some math (I'm using level 80 as a reference for now because I only just came back to DF and haven't got to 85 yet):

200 STR/INT/DEX: +20 damage so using a typical DC 80 weapon with average DPT of 91, the average DPT is 111.
200 LUK: +10 damage, +10 crit, +10 evasion, 1.95 Crit damage and +8 bonus to hit (correct me if I'm wrong on this).
Most things seem to have 20 B/D/P on average, while I have 75 Crit without LUK (but including base 5 Crit).

Probability of a glancing blow is 21/201 (I think) without considering LUK, because 20 for B/D/P plus 1 for a 0 roll, and Bonus doesn't affect that any more (again, correct me if I'm wrong). Probability of a Crit is 76/201 originally.
Expected damage with 200 STR/INT/DEX is (111*180/201*125/201)+(111*21/201*125/201*0.2)+(111*76/201*1.75)=136.7. First bracket is a no crit, no glancing, 2nd is a no crit glancing blow and 3rd is a crit.

Now with LUK: DPT is 101, Crit chance is 86/201. Expected damage is (101*190/201*115/201)+(101*11/201*115/201*0.2)+(101*1.95*86/201)= 139.5

Thus LUK is better in pure damage terms. Add all the other stuff (evasion, Bonus) and I can't see why any build would favour STR/INT/DEX over LUK. You're 10% less likely to be hit and will do more damage on average, and are more likely to hit.

EDIT: So 200 LUK is only 5 extra Crit now? In that case my calculations need fixing...

EDIT 2: It's 10, as far as I can see. My main has 200 LUK and gets 18 Crit with DmK v1 and its default weapon, my alt has no LUK and gets 8 Crit.

< Message edited by Hopeful Guy -- 9/1/2017 18:15:58 >
DF  Post #: 6
9/1/2017 18:08:32   

Regarding the attacks rolling from 180, does this include MPM? If so that is a humongous blow to defensive strategies, and the difference between high and low level gear has been rendered far less significant. The fact that PDB now actually do something I don't think is nearly enough (Given that a normal build will rarely have more than 40 of each) to offset this. To illustrate using some figures:

Before the update, I could accumulate ~70 MPM with ~30 PDB. Let's assume that PDB did absolutely nothing. With zero enemy bonus (which is another thing, if that wasn't adjusted bonus is 80% more effective in making MPM less effective) I would avoid 70% of damage completely.

After the update, 70 MPM corresponds to 70/180 to avoiding 39% of damage completely. The 30 PDB amounts to blocking (30/180) * (0.2) = 13% damage. So on average you will receive 61% * 87% = 53% damage. So almost 20% difference, in addition to being far more vulnerable to status effects (these aren't prevented by PDB).

Will actually have to conduct some testing, but this is a very big nerf overall. I'd like to hear others' opinions on this of course, I certainly didn't think anything was going to be done to MPM.
Post #: 7
9/1/2017 18:16:28   
DragonFable Boxcat

Yep. 180 rolls was intended to be a really big nerf to defense stacking.

Bonus does affect hitting through BPD.
LUK does not affect Bonus directly, only your chance of a direct hit, when roll + 4% LUK > 180.

I am considering lowering the damage modifiers from LUK, since they are a bit strong.
AQ MQ  Post #: 8
9/1/2017 18:17:13   
Legendary Nightshade

I decided to try out the new combat system with Cryptic, and uh, I keep critting. Nonstop. I've run through multiple quests and every single non-trinket hit just keeps critting. I took off all my equipment besides the default daggers and I'm still shredding enemies reasonably fast because of the crit modifier.

Also, Verly, didn't you say 4% was a typo and that you were doing 5%?

Edit: Has been fixed. Thanks Verly!

< Message edited by Solanaceae -- 9/1/2017 18:43:56 >
DF  Post #: 9
9/1/2017 18:20:42   
DragonFable Boxcat

Gonna take a look at what's going on, because that's definitely not right.
and yeah 5%, sorry, got a lot on my plate.

EDIT: Cryptic perma crit fixed.

< Message edited by Verlyrus -- 9/1/2017 18:34:48 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 10
9/1/2017 18:44:24   

@ Verly

I was more concerned with how the gap between tiers of items has been narrowed. Defenses were changed massively but items weren't (nor was I expecting them to be, it would be completely unfeasible, and I'm certainly not asking for the impossible) adjusted accordingly. Niche items like the Inlaid Trithril belt (+12 MPM) that were JUST good enough to warrant using in the most defensive builds don't seem worth it anymore. In defensive builds it felt good to avoid most damage, and there was a noticeable difference from that to offensive builds. Now we're getting hit most of the time no matter what the build.

These are just my first thoughts from the little testing I've done, and I hope I'm not sounding too harsh because I do approve of the changes overall, just not (right now at least) the extent to which things were changed.

Post #: 11
9/1/2017 19:06:51   
Legendary Nightshade

Another thing is the increase in monster defenses. It really throws a wrench in the works if you miss a stun or combo move, and enemies now have 40-70 MPM compared to my 57 Bonus, making battles drag out for longer than necessary (I'm in no real danger of dying to skeletons since they do little damage, but they keep dodging my multis) since they have more defense than your base Bonus. Classes that hit several times per skill, such as ECC, have an advantage over ones that do single hard-hitting hits to begin with because of on-hit weapon specials or debuffs. Now, they have the appeal of being less volatile too since you have up to a 5% chance to miss per hit.

I like the idea behind the changes, but in practice it feels like my character has become weaker both offensively and defensively. Maybe I'm just biased, though. There could be new builds opened up that just haven't been made right now, and our current equipment could just be out-of-date with the new meta.
DF  Post #: 12
9/1/2017 19:08:15   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)

A suggestion: remove the damage buff from LUK and make LUK add 1 point in P/D/B every 10 instead of every 20. That would make LUK more of the wildcard and give it a nerf as well overall (since glancing blows are only 5% more likely overall, ignoring Crit).

An observation: B/D/P is pretty useless unless you use a shield. Having 40 B/D/P means a 20% chance of a glancing blow. Factoring in 20 Crit (10% chance) on an enemy, 40 B/D/P results in a probability of 0.18 for a glancing blow (0.2*0.9). 0.82+0.18*0.02= 0.856, so the defensive equips only stop 14.4% of damage. It's worth noting that B/D/P is also much worse than M/P/M because of on-hit debuffs, like Siofra/Theano's stuns. They don't work if they miss (as M/P/M can do) but they do if the blow glances. M/P/M fares better, but even 50 M/P/M only leads to a 36% chance to evade not accounting for the Bonus of the enemy, which probably takes this down to 25%. It means unless you can reliably loop defences in a boss fight (specifically, M/P/M) you can pretty much say goodbye.

Also, Pet Dragon's protection skill gives 100 Parry instead of P/D/B.
DF  Post #: 13
9/1/2017 19:20:10   
Jue Viole Grace

Now that defense doesn't miss you can get stunned worse thing ever
AQ DF  Post #: 14
9/1/2017 19:20:19   

Ether-knight of DragonFable & EpicDuel


Attacks now roll out of 180 to hit.

Previously rolling out of 100 to hit, the changes to defenses drastically improves their effectiveness. This change compensates by reducing their effectivness.
Reduces the effectiveness of building super full tanky, although it is still a viable option.
Old defense skills may have lost a bit of effectiveness- this is to be expected and gives items with defense stats more use on certain classes.

....Uhhh. The changes never would have actually drastically increased their effectiveness in the slightest. Would it be higher due to MPM and BPD combined? Yes but not drastically as you can't possibly focus on both of them at the same time. But with the change now, with the best possibility of maybe middling around 50 MPM average if you do not get the best equipment possible, wouldn't it mean that there are still 130 more numbers to succeed in a hit? And this is not even with monster BtH combined. If we add in maybe 30 monster BtH at this. that goes to a cripping 160 numbers to land a hit in. Now it is absolutely worthless to focus on defense from equipment. You mightas well go full offense entirely. If I have a suggestion, perhaps it would be better if the number range was simply 120 or 130. This way, MPM focusing/BPD focusing would be nowhere near as ridiculous as it was before. The only issue with tinkering the number range in general is with lower levels, at best you maybe have 20 MPM or with modern equipment 30-40 BPD. I know min-maxing can allow near or up to 70 MPM, and 90-100 BPD. however, that can only be achieved at level 80 anyways. The changes as they stand, overall, would hurt low level characters severely in terms of defensive oriented equipment...
DF  Post #: 15
9/1/2017 19:27:50   

I'd argue that LUK is fine as is. I don't think it should be looked at as "it's pretty comparable to the main damage stat" but as "by investing 200 points into LUK, that's 200 points fewer into END and WIS (for example)".

Given the massive nerfs to defense, END is actually more valuable, and 200 END gives you an extra 1000 health, ~50% extra at level 80. That's comparable to an extra 33% damage reduction. Compare that to the 5% crit chance and +25% crit damage, which ends up giving your character a 5% damage increase due to the benefits it provides to crit, ~5% increase in damage from the buff to weapon damage (ballpark, from +8 at 200 LUK) and ~5% damage reduction to damage from the PDB it provides (Which doesn't take into account bonus and enemy crit, which cut this figure significantly). Does ~10% damage and 5% absorption increase really seem that strong vs the effective 33% damage reduction that END provides?

These are extreme examples of stat investment, but I think they illustrate my point well. Each serves to aid different builds, and I'd argue that it is END that has become exceedingly strong after these nerfs (even if it may not be apparent at first).
Post #: 16
9/1/2017 19:28:25   

I've been away from AE games for a long time, so I'll try asking what's been bugging my mind for a long time: What's exactly the difference between M/P/M and B/P/D? As far as my understanding goes, nothing exactly.
DF AQW  Post #: 17
9/1/2017 19:35:40   

@ caststarter

Wouldn't making the roll that low for BDP make it kind of the end game meta though? If you think about it and as you stated, a player can get 90-100 BDP, which means that at minimum, even with average monster bonus, you'd still have a 50% chance or greater to reduce any non crit damage to 20% of it's strength. Right now the current roll strongly encourages the use of defensive skills in strategies, where previously, they were used infrequently except for difficult bosses.

Edit: PDB has also become a lot more useful in this update, as it's no longer a convoluted chance to block among three values, but gives a (hopefully) equal to chance to reduce damage as MPM is to negate it.

Quick question, but does PDB still only have half the effective percentage as MPM, or is it equal to MPM percentage?

< Message edited by Greldracion -- 9/1/2017 19:43:47 >
AQ  Post #: 18
9/1/2017 19:41:31   

Ether-knight of DragonFable & EpicDuel

Not really when BDP does not fully negate damage and, as Hopeful pointed out, it would still mean the player is debuffed/stunned to oblivion. It would just be better to have it at least be moderately useful. Think of it get something more consistently lowered versus something that is more up in the air for full negation. Right now the rolls current height makes both not very useful. Afterall, if we assume 70 MPM with 120, that is then reduced by 30, that is still a healthy 1/3 of a chance compared to say 50%.
DF  Post #: 19
9/1/2017 19:41:32   

@Verlyrus Was Ascendant changed in any way? It looks like I'm missing alot attacks more than I was before the update.

EDIT: I literally just missed 5 times in a row and that just isn't fun.

< Message edited by LadyYennifer -- 9/1/2017 19:58:23 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 20
9/1/2017 19:44:37   
Legendary Nightshade

@Luks: Verly updated PDB and MPM. The details are linked in the very first post of this thread.

@LadyYennifer: Monsters have a lot more MPM now to the point where you can't just ignore the Bonus of equipment anymore.
DF  Post #: 21
9/1/2017 19:56:51   

@Solanaceae: So they do, and a considerable amount of bonus. I think this change is very welcome, bonus thus far was largely useless and it seemed odd that most mobs lacked much in the way of offensive/ defensive stats. I'm not sure if they were also given more bonus, but this adds further to my criticism of the defense nerf. Bonus is extremely punishing against MPM and PDB. I just faced a skeleton that had 17 bonus. That effectively negates my already lackluster 30 PDB and 45 MPM. I strongly agree with Caststarter that the roll needs to be lowered. I would've kept MPM the same (these are the "basic" defenses, and by being rolled against 100 they can be treated as percentages, which is far easier to understand and work with for both new and veteran players alike) and adjusted PDB somewhat (150 perhaps?) while still maintaining the mob buffs.

As it stands with the significant mob buffs and significant player nerfs one does feel much, much weaker overall.
Post #: 22
9/1/2017 20:07:20   

Ranger has acquired a curious bug. If I use Quick Reflexes (not any of the other focus-reducing skills) on the first turn of a battle, my crit multiplier and focus counts read as "NaN" and my crits do 0 damage for the rest of the battle. Whether I use skills that add to or subtract from focus, it just keeps saying NaN and critting for 0. This has happened in various quests.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 23
9/1/2017 20:13:14   

....................... The changes are no good. Old stats were waaaaayyyyy better. I just did the weekly quest and let me tell you, I nearly got merked so hard you could not believe me. I'm a level 74 Riftwalker and I came within meters of dying; I felt like I was level 20 again in this quest.
Specifically, here are where the issues lie:
1) Crit % has not increased proportionally to MPM and BPD %. What I mean by this is that although crits will go through BPD (according to the update), the crit % is relatively too low so you end up not doing too many crits. However, BPD reduces the damage you put out so you end up doing very little damage. To put this in perspective, against enemies that I would normally 1 hit KO it took 3 turns to do it.
2) I don't know if it was just this quest but the enemies' MPM were significantly higher than mine. I ended up missing a lot of shots while my enemies pounded me. Keep in mind I'm using Riftwalker so hit % are extremely noticeable for me. This game is blatantly pandering toward higher defense which means that offensive classes like Riftwalker are essentially nerfed. This is obvious by just glancing at the update stats: effects of defense stats are increased while effects of offense stats are decreased.
3) The defense has reverted to BPD (at least for Riftwalker)..... I wonder how in the world is anyone going to defend from bosses like Theano and Siofra when you can't essentially guarantee a miss. Sure the damage is significantly less if you boost your defense but I'm willing to bet that stuff like stun is still going to go in effect. If anything, shield moves should affect MPM NOT BDP. This unravels the last decade of DF strategy.

EDIT: I moved this post from the weekly update to this post
Post #: 24
9/1/2017 20:14:27   
Cyrus Moonveil

Since this is talking about the combat changes and stuff, I don't really know where else to mention this...

Are damage reduction skills ever going to be changed? Like Ninja's Walk Within Shadows, or Dragonlord's Earth Dragon Spirit, or even Doomknight's Void Barrier. The fact that these skills make the damage go down then back up makes them work oddly. For example, if a hit were to kill you pre-''heal'' you lose the battle either way. I've always found this to be a bit confusing. So I was wondering if it was ever going to be addressed.
DF  Post #: 25
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