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Generalist Robe vs. Bloodmage Armor

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8/27/2019 1:51:42   

Alright I need a second opinion here. So currently, I am debating between Hydromancer Bloodmage and Generalist Robe as an item I use in my main inventory. Note that I am trying to avoid digging into my storage as much as possible.

Before you react and say "omg what's this guy smoking, obviously Bloodmage is better", hear me out here. Well you might still say that after reading my wall of post, I dunno.

As you can see from my character page, I am currently running Hydromancer Bloodmage in my main inventory as my MP water spell. I am also running Destruction Burst, Arctic Tornado, Creation Burst and the new Furious Trobble in order to fill out my other spell options. This also means that I am using my Hydromancer Bloodmage as a spell booster for all these spells.

Keep in mind the only use I have for either of these 2 armors is for damage. I have other armors for defense.

Before I go into my calculations, I'm going to list the following modifiers just to be clear what I am talking about (I'm pretty sure these are accurate):

  • A burst spell (Destruction Burst, Arctic Tornado, Creation Burst, Cysero's Teleport Booth) gets 50% additive damage in exchange for 151 hp.
  • A spell cast in a Bloodmage armor gets 50% additive damage in exchange for 151 hp.
  • Poelala pet and guest combined (assuming 250 Int, boosted by Arcane Amplification and Celtic Wheel) gives your spells 34% additive damage.
  • Hydromancer Bloodmage's built-in spell gets a 84.977% multiplicative damage boost due to EleComp.
  • Generalist Robe by default gives all your spells 38.2% multiplicative damage.
  • All spells cast in Generalist Robe costs 95% mana.
  • Generalist Robe imbued with Lore gives all your spells 88.2% multiplicative damage in exchange for 2x mana cost (190% mana after the mana reduction).
  • This is likely a bug, however, during celerity (e.g. Shadowfeeder Pendant), the second cast of any spell in Generalist Robe is unaffected by any mana cost modifiers from said robes. This is to say, while it is unaffected by the -5% mana reduction, you can also cast a lore-imbued spell without needing to worry about the penalty on the mana cost. This will also work with Book of Burns instead of celerity.

    Now for the math. I will express all the final damage modifiers relative to a normal melee attack in neutral armor:

    Hydromancer Bloodmage Blood Flow
  • % Melee Damage = 2 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.34) * 1.84977 = 680.7154%
  • Costs 653 mana and 151 hp at level 150.

    Blood Mage + Burst Spell
  • % Melee Damage = 2 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.34) = 468%
  • Costs 653 mana, 302 hp at level 150.

    Generalist Robe + Burst Spell
  • % Melee Damage = 2 *(1 + 0.5 + 0.34) * 1.382 = 508.576%
  • Costs 620 mana, 151 hp at level 150.
  • If used with celerity, the second cast costs 653 mana and 151 hp.

    Generalist Robe + Imbue with Lore + Burst Spell
  • % Melee Damage = 2 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.34) * 1.882 = 692.576%
  • Costs 1240 mana, 151 hp at level 150.
  • If used with celerity, the second cast costs 653 mana and 151 hp, but with the full Lore effect.

    Now for the important part.

    Based on these results, we can say the following:
  • Generalist Robe is able to boost your damage with Burst spells to be on par with Bloodmage's built in spell. In fact, it beats it out by (a negligible) 1.7424%. Furthermore, it is able to do this for EVERY element (provided you have the equivalent burst spell) rather than being element-locked to water. In exchange, it costs significantly more (nearly double the mana). However, if it is used with celerity, this costs is reduced to a much more reasonable level. In fact, it becomes 3.9% MORE mana efficient than casting 2 Burst Spells (NOT Blood Flow) in Bloodmage while providing 48% more damage. If this is used with Zfinity Gauntlet: Mind/Celerity, this means you can probably cast 2 Lore-Imbued Spells for a small hp cost (or even more, depending on the situation) per battle, assuming you get healed every 2 battles.
  • If used as a spell booster for burst spells, Generalist Robe (non-Lore boosted) is always superior to Bloodmage, costing 151 less hp and dealing about 8.67% more damage.
  • Obviously, Blood Flow, is the best choice, being more convenient and mana efficient than celerity/lore + Burst spell and only dealing negligibly less damage. However, Blood Flow is ele-locked while the ladder option is not.

    Having gone through all of this, we now come to our (my) central question:

    Is the superior general spell-boosting capabilities of Generalist Robe and the ability to massively power up all of your burst spells for a higher mana cost worth losing one of the most power and mana-efficient spells in the game?

    If I do end up switching over to Generalist Robes, I will probably end up getting Cysero's Teleport Booth and switch out my Everfrozen Shard for Zfinity Gauntlet: Mind. As such, the other minor downside with Generalist Robes is that I can only push my water/ice resist down to 7% instead of 4%. Not a big deal, especially since Mind Gauntlet/Time Gauntlet are better against multi-element enemies anyway, but still worthy of note.

    Also, before you suggest Store Kindred/HSVV for Lumomancer/Cryomancer or something along those lines, keep in mind what I said earlier in the post - I don't like the idea of needing to dig into my storage. I want a build that can deal with any situation without needing to dig into storage/rely on potions or assists. Kindred works with 100% proc weapons for those who didn't know. I also want to have as many options as possible for SP nukes in my inventory. Currently I have 3 available - HSVV, HSVV + TWB and Neko Overlord + Morningstar Cross. I don't consider Luna Claw to be strong enough to be worth using. I'm also considering Lunar Eclipse Shield over Eternal Twilight Regalia, but that's also a fairly weak spell, though you do get the Blind.

    Basically, I am trying to compress way too much in way too few inventory slots, and now I need to make some difficult decisions. Do I need to make all these optimizations? No, no I don't. Could I have spent the time I did on this post I made at 2 am for minor optimizations in a flash game and done something more productive IRL? Yes, yes I could have. But let's not talk about that. This is 1 of the few charms of this game - you can customize your build to a surprisingly high degree even after you think that you are done.

    Anyway, thanks for reading this wall of text. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

    < Message edited by lolerster -- 8/27/2019 2:11:08 >
  • AQ  Post #: 1
    8/27/2019 2:29:51   

    Not sure if you really needed it, but I decided to double check your numbers because I can't for the life of me understand math that uses melee values when calculating.

    Assuming a monster with 130% elemental resistance and that you hit 100% of your hits:

    Bloodmage built-in spell: 4258.447406 average damage per turn.
    Bloodmage + D-Burst: 2931.15232 average damage per turn.

    Generalist Robes + D-burst: 3181.570852 average damage per turn.
    Generalist Robes + Imbue + D-burst: 4332.64569 average damage per turn.

    So your numbers seem about right. That said... Bloodmage should be averaging 3000 dmg/cast with D-burst, do you really need to go even higher by abusing a bug? I don't think you do... Just stick with the bloodmage instead of the Generalist Robes IMO.

    AQ  Post #: 2
    8/27/2019 2:58:17   

    Maybe I shouldn't have emphasized the bug so much. The thing is, I didn't know about the bug until after I started testing this. Even if the bug did not exist, I am still considering Generalist Robes.

    I guess one way to think about it is that Generalist Robes would be better in every situation EXCEPT for when a water spell is needed. It deals about 9% more damage on your burst spells than if it was cast in bloodmage, and it costs half as much health. Neither of these points are massive, but they are enough to not overlook. It has the ability to boost any burst spell to Blood Flow levels for twice the mana, but with Mind Gauntlet, you should still be able to cast it 4 times over 2 battles (and if not 4 lore imbued, then at least 3 lore imbued and 1 normal, assuming the monater lives for enough turns).

    Also just think of melee value as some standard expected damage value the devs set up. The %'s are just used as comparisons to see much much stronger/weaker something is. It's convenient as you don't have to take into account resistances, actual stat values and such similar details.

    < Message edited by lolerster -- 8/27/2019 3:06:20 >
    AQ  Post #: 3
    8/27/2019 3:14:56   
    Primate Murder

    If you don't have to worry about mp or monster damage, then Imbued Generalist would be a better choice. There are stronger combos, but if you're short on armor slots and looking for versatilty, it works fine.

    That said, would you really find it fun to only really play with a single armor?
    AQ DF  Post #: 4
    8/27/2019 9:28:06   

    Here is the thing - there really aren't any stronger combos with MP spells than Lore Imbue/Bloodmage spells without going into spell-boosting weapons or the element-specific Wizard Robes (which takes far too many slots). Even looking at stuff like WKZ/HSVV, Lore Imbued Spells/Bloodmage built-in spells are only beaten if CIT is used.

    Regarding the damage taken from monsters - you run into the same issue with any other FO armor whenever you are trying yo use the built-in nuke. Generalist Robes has 80% resists across the board, with 1 of your choice at 75% and no FO lean, so it's not even that bad (the MRM is pretty bad though). Anyway, the plan is to only use this stuff under Stun/Celerity, if I can 1HKO, when damage taken doesn't matter or in damage races (e.g. Void Dragon Queen). Celerity followed by a stun and another celerity will give you 4 turns before you get hit - more than enough to empty your mana. It's not like you usually want to use an armor skill against a monster of the same element or staying in a FO armor against a monster of the opposite element that's not stunned.

    If damage taken is an issue, I would just go into one of the Neko/Awe armors and cast spells or click attack with one of the 100% proc weapon (e.g. vs. Ultimon or ALX, you can just slowly grind it out). These offensive armors in my inventory were never meant to take damage in.

    Regarding the fun factor, again, even if I stayed with Bloodmage it's pretty much exactly the same thing. I'll be casting most of my spells out of blood mage instead of generalist. Besides, I still have 8 other armors (well 7. Whispering Raiment isn't really used except for on the first turn).

    Also, just found another (possible ?) bug. Some imbued spells cost a small amount of SP in addition to doubling the mp cost. I think it applies to creation destruction burst/arctic tornado/creation burst but not cysero/book of burns/furious trobble. Kinda weird. Some cost sp and others don't.

    < Message edited by lolerster -- 8/27/2019 9:39:37 >
    AQ  Post #: 5
    8/27/2019 9:53:38   

    The SP consumption thingy is a known issue. Imbue With Lore wasn't coded with HP Costs in mind, so it kinda bugged out when they were implemented. You end up losing SP instead of HP whenever you use spells with HP Cost.

    As for which armor to use at the end of the day...? Well, I think both work fine? If it was me I'd go with Bloodmage mainly because I dislike using outdated gear, but that's just my personal preference. At the end of the day there really isn't much difference between Blood Mage and Generalist Robes if you're using it solely for the spell boost.

    PS: I know what the melee values mean and how they work, I just get lost when math starts being thrown around involving them! xD
    AQ  Post #: 6
    8/27/2019 12:06:06   

    I dunno if it works as well with Mind but you should test it. Whenever you are low on MP use Astramorph, click it for the armor, then use Mind till your MP full. Then switch back to armor of choice. Possibly way to get cheap MP, which would make Generalist's Robe even better than Bloodmage since easy to Imbue everything. From what others have told me, if that combo works for you, the main downside is just how many clicks you have to do all the time. Before someone says this is a bug, someone on the bug forums a few years ago said they think it is not a bug. This is not definitive, but I have not heard a definitive statement saying this is a bug.
    Post #: 7
    8/27/2019 12:29:43   

    Haven't heard of people abusing the astromorph bug in a long long time, but it was definitely bugged a few years ago, dunno if it was fixed.

    If it was fixed, you should lose tons of either HP or SP whenever you use the abuse to go from 0 MP to 131 to full MP.
    AQ  Post #: 8
    8/27/2019 15:52:59   

    Just tested it. It appears it is indeed still fully restoring your mana. In theory, it is working correctly. However, there is no way this is not a design oversight. I'll probably stay away from this one.

    Also the Wizard class is waaaay too strong compared to the other classes.

    Edit: according to IMR's response to a bug report, it is not a bug. Or she's mistaken.

    < Message edited by lolerster -- 8/27/2019 16:13:38 >
    AQ  Post #: 9
    8/27/2019 18:18:30   

    Came upon this page and thought you might find it helpful. It compares generalist's robes with bloodmages as well as lotsa different armors.
    Post #: 10
    8/27/2019 21:34:55   

    Thanks. I was already aware of that page. The bloodmage/wizard robes calcs s all take into account spell booster weapons which I don't really want to run (or even have access to half of them).
    AQ  Post #: 11
    8/28/2019 0:08:57   

    Speaking of Z-Finity Gauntlets, anyone know if they'll be available again (post-Endgame)?
    Post #: 12
    8/28/2019 0:26:43   

    We don't know, though I think it was mentioned at some point that they might bring it back for future marvel movies.
    AQ  Post #: 13
    10/10/2019 19:25:51   

    I don't think it's a bug, Generalist's Robes are just awesome.
    Post #: 14
    10/11/2019 9:49:28   


    Lock because of hijack.

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    While duplicate topics are not permitted, please do not post in someone else's thread with your own questions. If your issue is not addressed by any existing threads, please use and post your own thread.

  • If you don't think you're statisfied with the answers, lolerster, you may make a new thread.

    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 15
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