RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing


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9/18/2019 0:21:04

Kurtz96
Member

Oh yeah. I forgot about Dragon warrior. And do the five attacks of Archivist count as 1 turn or 5 turns for DPT calculations?

Now that i think about it, Chaosweaver is very similar to Dragon warrior, with the take more damage to deal more damage.

Post #: 126

9/18/2019 1:09:09

Axpower
Member

@The_element How are you getting 5k+ on chi blast? Seems like the nerf made it eat a ton of MP, only deal up to 25%, and have a lower damage cap. Most I'm getting is high three thousands...

DF	Post #: 127

9/18/2019 3:53:33

LouisCyphere
Member

It's been a while since I've used the forums (been extremely busy with IRL stuff) plus I'm doing it because it's CW testing which is one of my most awaited class.

I have to agree with the others regarding skills especially Rebuke, Vengeance and Soul Shred so I'm not going to elaborate further. And also CW's problem with acquiring additional Soul Threads (can we just coin it as ST?)

Now, other points (which actually fall into more into the aesthetic side of the class) that CW can probably improve on are:
1. I think the kneel animation should be changed and it feels especially awkward when using Trinkets.
2. The animation for Snap should be used for Soul Shred or at least if we're gonna rework some skills, the Snap animation should be used for Annihilating (instant kill) the enemy.
3. Since Vaal's Ego trinket is basically the go-to trinket for any CW enthusiast, I think when using Vaal's Ego as a CW, it should use the Laughing animation instead of the standard "kneel" animation.

I'm really having fun with playing the class and the aesthetic is just amazing. The Chibi Corrupted Spirits capes even fit the class too.
Thanks to Verly and Tomix for this class. We're making small steps to satisfying everyone using the class and I think with more tweaking and testing, it's really worth the wait for this class.

Oh and if anyone even bothers with Book 3 PVP Trophies farming, CW is really good at it

AQW

Epic

Post #: 128

9/18/2019 7:37:38

Loewe
Member

Ok, so after sleeping on it and looking at the post I wrote with a clearer mind I realized I spoke a little too harshly, especially considering how much effort it must have took to make this class. So, I will be starting off this post with everything I like about Chaosweaver, after that I will make suggestions that I think might improve the class, rather than just criticise it and create a negative discussion.

First of all, the animations are beyond amazing. The image of my character wielding my favorite sword and those superbly designed soul looms in conjuction, weaving a dance of death around my opponent with those multiple strike skills while the red and black animations of Chaosweaver fills the screen, ahhhhh my eyES ARE EJACULATI-

*ahem* Easily one of the top classes in the game when it comes to artwork.

Secondly, the playstyle of a berserker fits this class perfectly. While I normally dislike glass cannon style classes, the idea of a warrior who knows his soul is damned, yet fights every battle on the edge of death, laughing at his opponent without a care is just too good of a concept to pass up. The gameplay design really lets you feel this concept. Doing your best to manage your dmg output and defensive skills, all the while sitting on the edge of your seat wondering if you will make it to your next turn, going down to 1 health just as Aegis runs out, then using rebuke and barely winning with a huge burst of damage is probably one of the most fun I've had with any class, ever.

To talk about the skill designs more specifically, I can't point out how much I like Aegis' effect enough. It's not just another "click this and don't get hit" shield. It has it's own characteristics that fit the class in a dynamic way that makes playing Chaosweaver all the more fun. Gambit's empowered version is another example of brilliant design. Taking a turn immediately after using Gambit not only fits Chaosweaver's hyper offensive style perfectly, it also effectively removes the dmg you would have taken between the turn you cast Gambit and the next one, making it more likely for you to last till the end of the Gambit buff without having to waste a turn casting Aegis.

Now, on to the suggestions;

Soul Aegis: This skill is perfect. If I have to criticise it I would say I don't understand why it dies to DoT dmg but honestly, I don't really mind it.

Soul Gambit: The very basis of the class. My main problem with this effect is the way it effects the item build. Without an inherent MPM / BPD debuff on it, it encourages potential abuse through the use of defensive items, guests or pets; however nerfing the skill this way without adding anything to it would make it a little too punishing. I would suggest either lowering the amount of turns -All lasts for, or buffing it's offensive capabilities even further (not too much though).

Soul Slice: Pretty good skill overall. All I would ask for is for it's buff to last 1 more turn. That way, if you use this skill immediatly after Gambit, it's buff would last long enough to effect every skill you use during Gambit's buff.

Hexing Wheel: Perfect.

Aggresion: Unless Im mistaken, DoT dmg doesn't work with buffs which makes it's existence in this skill really weird. I can't really come up with a way to improve this skill mainly because DoT dmg is a little too far removed from what the rest of the class is all about. The dmg on the skill is good though.

Obliterate: I came across a suggestion from LouisCyphere as I was writing this. Using the snap animation for the Annihilating does make a lot of sense, setting aside the fact that the execute mechanic itself doesn't really get used in this class because using rebuke simply deals more dmg than an execute would. My original suggestion for this skill was for it to inflict -50 bonus debuff for 2 turns, that becomes -100 bonus if it was used with a Soulthread. The reason I want a -100 bonus debuff skill is the idea behind it. I want to see my opponent desperately try to hit me, getting rid of my last bit of health while my character dodges everything, all the while laughing at his futile efforts. Seeing the amazing dodging animation is just a bonus (pun intended).

Soul Assault: Has a lot of hits, deals nice damage and recovers Soulthreads. Pretty good skill overall except for the insane cooldown on it. I would say the cooldown on this skill could be halved and it would still be a balanced skill.

Soul Siphon: This skill is in a really weird place. At first glance, it is one of your very few defensive options that heals an insane amount of health combined with Gambit and the crit buff from Soul Slice. At second glance, all the health you've recovered using this skill will most likely be destroyed by your opponents attack, making it a stall option rather than a defensive one. Again, I can't really come up with a way to improve this skill and I don't just want to say "increase the heal" so it's fine as it is.

Dominance: A standard multi-hit skill, but a weak one for an offensive class. Either increase the dmg to %200 or lower the cooldown to 2 turns.

Soul Rip: One of the skills I 'ripped into' as it were, current version of Soul Rip is underpowered to the extreme. I would say make the empowered version the standard one, and make the empowered version guarantee the stun.

Vengence: Just increase the numbers. -20 All for standard version and -40 All for empowered one would make this skill perfectly reasonable. Though TFS's idea about just removing the empower from this skill also has merit.

Rebuke: just remove the crit limitation. Honestly I love everything about this skill from the animation to the gameplay, so it's a shame it's limited by such a restriction.

Untangle: Another good skill that suffers from it's insane cooldown. Considering we have skills like Baltaelsynch and Kathool on a 10 turn cooldown, there is no reason why this skill can't be the same. If you want to nerf something to match the cooldown buff, I would suggest lowering the crit chance from 200 to 50. A lvl 90 offensive build can get 100 crit anyway and it would give some synergy between Soul Slice and this skill.

Finally, I would like to thank everyone who worked on this class. Despite my harsh comments, I want you all to know I really appreciate the time and effort you put into making this class a reality.

PS: Sorry about the huge wall of text. Again. I promise this is the last one you will see from me about this subject :D

< Message edited by Loewe -- 9/18/2019 7:38:44 >

Post #: 129

9/18/2019 11:39:36

Tr4pD00r
Member

After playing a wider variety of quests/bosses and also using Chaosweaver by itself (no guests or any specific niche items) for an organic experience, I am firm that Chaosweaver is offensively underpowered for an offensive class.

Its good that the empowered Soul Gambit has generally enabled the skill to see use in situations where I otherwise wouldnt have given it a second thought. The empowerment adds a lot of option value, however, the practical issues it entails after using it and the bottleneck it has on the rest of the class's damage being mediocre remain. Chaosweaver simply cannot handle high hp bosses and against such an enemy I would take any class but Chaosweaver. Soul Gambit cant be used at all, even after Soul Siphon and Soul Aegis youll still continue to get butchered long after the fact. Unless you have all the guests beside you specifically to babysit Chaosweaver while he goes through his Soul Gambit (which is not the way everyone would prefer to play anyway), opening against the boss with Soul Gambit even with the idea to Soul Aegis/Rebuke/Soul Siphon in mind is terrible. You can take my word for it or learn it the hard way... Soul Gambit is a liability for the first two thirds of the fight until you think you can activate it at the end to help beat him when youre that close to winning.

Chaosweaver has Untangle and one cycle of damage from Soul Gambit only when ending fights, while other classes can either almost keep up with Chaosweaver's damage, or deal more consistent damage over time, in both cases not being exposed to the drawbacks Chaosweaver has to deal with.

Here come my suggestions on various skills:

Soul Gambit: 4 turns of -200 B/P/D instead of -200 All. I like the suggested idea of making attacks against Chaosweaver not miss while under Soul Gambit's duration. I get a feeling of "Lets fight, let us hit each other, come and hit me!" and not "Ive made my attacks stronger but my now severely enfeebled body is going to be crushed if I dont win and get out of here ~~(good thing I brought mritha and uuanta)~~".

Rebuke: Able to crit.

Soul Rip: Got ruined by how the soulthreads change treated it. But an excellent suggestion from Loewe above will restore its glory: 3 turn stun spread across all enemies while unempowered, 3 turn unavoidable stun spread across all enemies while empowered.

Vengeance: The current vengeance is nothing but a slap on the wrist. If its -All isnt going to increase, we can simply revert vengeance to the old -50 boost which was just fine.

If I could go on to nitpick, as a matter of personal taste:

Obliterate: Should be executing instead of Soul Shred. Then stun 1 turn and enemy -100 bonus for 2 turns if the execute fails. (The empowered unavoidable stun is moved to Soul Rip.)
Then Soul Shread should inherit the -20 All from the current vengeance while doing its 1 turn DoT. Move obliterate's having been able to be empowered to this skill: If empowered, DoT for 2 turns instead.

Overall:
If either Soul Gambit's -200 All or 8 turns of debuff is not going away then lets do with lower cooldowns on skills in general especially on Untangle and Soul Assault, or simply increase the base damage scaling of the class up a notch. If thats too powerful for Soul Gambit, lower the +boost of Soul Gambit to keep Soul Gambit boosted damage at the same relative level as it is now.

Post #: 130

9/18/2019 15:40:59

Kevinvx
Member

IMO CW might be the new tier 4 as is, went ahead and solo'd greed, gluttony, and envy casually a few moments ago. Damage output is insane atm hitting 2.5k-3k w untangle not to mention the average 1k+ dmg per skill just shreds bosses and simply removing -all made this possible.

My recommendation for Cw would be to see if reducing the dmg buff down to 150 would balance that out.

< Message edited by Kevinvx -- 9/18/2019 15:47:33 >

Post #: 131

9/18/2019 15:52:09

JIKIL
Member

Oh thank the gods, the new walk cycle actually feels good now.

As for buffs on some of the abilities abilities base damage feels good man. Not too sure on how the new Obliterate would work, granted that if you lose all of your defences when gambling, all of your -bonuses that you can inflict become moot anyway, not even the bubbles gonna mend the inevitable pain if you somehow don't kill anything within a few turns.

For me who doesn't have the time to look for artifacts or to feed dragon chow, I did see a noticeable improvement in KPS on Unraveled Theano. With the changes now, that would require me pray that he doesn't touch me funny before I can pull off an Soul Aegis whereas before I would just play an artful dodger and with some stray hits occasionally killing me. So yes, now soul Gambit is an all or nothing move where you better hope that stun works or that you have an emp aegis on hand before anything akin to bosses that can hit like a truck would kill you with a glance.

If one is looking to just use him for farming 3 enemy groups, its better than ever before... I think?

< Message edited by JIKIL -- 9/18/2019 16:32:00 >

AQW	Post #: 132

9/18/2019 16:29:27

dragon_master
Member

I cannot keep up with the changes, lol. I think the current stats are optimal.

also, I cannot stress enough that Unraveled Theano should be the Inn version replacement (just my opinion).

DF	Post #: 133

9/18/2019 16:30:23

JIKIL
Member

Wait, is inn theano not as bad as unravelled theano?
I might just smack that dude in the face for all the stress he gave me.
Kinda scared to do the inn challenges in general since there's so much preparations… so much to lose too.

< Message edited by JIKIL -- 9/18/2019 16:31:01 >

AQW	Post #: 134

9/18/2019 16:55:55

Kurtz96
Member

There isn't anything to lose. The base battles don't cause any gold and even the challenges only take 1000 gold which isn't that much.
Try them and if you fail no one will know. It's not like there is a big notification going out that says "so and so failed this challenge LOL lets laugh at the noob"

Theano is one of the earliest Inn challenge and has not aged well. Whenever I want to practice with a class or explore combos/rotation I fight him cause he is so easy and has no gimmick.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 9/18/2019 17:09:37 >

Post #: 135

9/18/2019 17:10:46

Ace Woodlink
Member

Alright, CW is working much, much better in longer battles now. It's really shaping up to be a proper, usable class now that it doesn't have to struggle to catch back up after the initial burst, even beat Guffer with it with only a few deaths and messing around with stats.

< Message edited by Ace Woodlink -- 9/18/2019 17:15:28 >

Post #: 136

9/18/2019 17:42:37

ergotth
AQW Lore-titician

Chaosweaver feels really smooth, the use of Soulthreads is still really fun but not overly limiting, making the class stand out, slightly similar to Epoch and Chaosweaver, but it's way to use the resources is still very unique and not necessarily weaker than both those classes. The walk cycle is smooth and fully functional, although once or twice I caught myself stuck at the edge, but honestly I need to read the map's art instead of squashing myself against the wall thinking there is one more room ahead. also, black eyes FTW! The only change I think I could live without was having Assault Unlock Hexing Wheel, I think it could've been kept, skills like that give just a tiny extra challenge without being annoying, especialy considering Hexing Wheel isn't a life-saving skill anyway.

@Tr4pdoor
I think you will find CW much better now ;)

< Message edited by ergotth -- 9/18/2019 17:44:05 >

AQW

Post #: 137

9/18/2019 18:02:28

Greldracion
Member

I like how Obliterate now has some tactical use to it if you are willing to use a soulthread, being that it allows at least 1 guaranteed move to setup and a relatively safe second action if you have not used soul gambit. I do also appreciate how both Assault and Untangle can fit into a general rotation and that there's a potential chance of gaining 5-6 soulthreads in a fight, if used wisely. I also find it fitting that soul gambit forces you to take damage unless you have the ability to cover up your defenses with multiple protection abilities from pets/guests, or to just time the use of defensive abilities accordingly. Aggression being able to do anywhere from 425-875% damage, and soulshred doing 500-900% (up from 400-700%) damage feels great. even though for the most part DoT's aren't the best on a hyperoffensive class, though they do help sustain dps here. The addition of a little more damage on Soul siphon is handy, more healing is welcome.

Personally I feel that CW's kit is pretty good right now. it has some potential set ups and the damage feels pretty on par with other aggressive classes IMO.

Edit: the fact that the defense debuff is the same duration as the -All debuff feels rough, though I would find it understandable if it was made this way due to the fact that the skill is loopable now. Still hurts though, maybe it could be the same length as the buff?

Edit 2: it was by the skin of my teeth, but I actually managed to beat the first level of the exaltia tower without temp items/extra potions. I faced infernals for both bosses, but I actually wonder if the soul gambit debuff might also cause the celestial enemies to debuff themselves?

< Message edited by Greldracion -- 9/18/2019 18:21:38 >

AQ	Post #: 138

9/18/2019 21:39:40

hammerfyll
Member

The current setup is my favourite version of Chaosweaver so far. It feels like its overall strength was raised, at the expense of the cheese. Rebuke is just right, still being your strongest attack but not to the same ridiculous degree as earlier builds. It's still a risk too, but the improved utility of siphon means you can survive.

If it stays as this for the final release, I think CW will be my favourite class. ?

Post #: 139

9/19/2019 6:58:48

JIKIL
Member

A bit more testing and some faffing about... Id say that the only thing the class needs now is more soul threads, with how rapidly I personally chug on Soul Gambit to make up for my frail body... kinda emulates addiction really.

Otherwise, this class is good as is with some minor aesthetic swaps between Soul Shred and Soul Obliterate like many others suggest

< Message edited by JIKIL -- 9/19/2019 6:59:36 >

AQW	Post #: 140

9/19/2019 12:01:50

LouisCyphere
Member

Pardon me in advance for posting a wall since we're still in the testing phase. Is this Version 5 already of CW? Latest Design Notes link

Aesthetics:
I really like the walk cycle and CW is all about being beating mobs and doing it stylishly. I rate this as a Smokin' Sexy Style.
Getting Demnra's Deception was one of the best purchases that I've ever made. Waiting for the other official CW helms and capes(Alraia or Secundus capes perhaps?).
However, CW still tend to get stuck in some areas in the game such as Danao's Forge. Hopefully it won't happen during quests.

Regarding the black scelera, I rather like it to be honest since Book 1 Vaal has it which I assume shows how much his soul has been corrupted compared to his Inn counterpart who is younger.

Skills:
In general the increased damage boosts really helped the class finishing battles faster especially when Soul Gambit is on cooldown.
For individual skills:
Assault: I like the way it is now.
Obliterate: I think the empowered version should have -Boost instead of -Bonus considering how Soul Gambit reduces our defenses now.
Aggro: It's alright but I personally don't like DoTs and this might even force me to change my build from STR/INT to DEX/INT instead.
Hexing Wheel: This one is really perfect. No need to change this.
Slice: Same thing with Assault, no need to change this now.
Gambit: I'm still iffy about the duration of the debuff. Could be the same as the duration of the buffs or make it 6 turns instead of 8 turns perhaps? Because doubling the duration of debuff doesn't feel like a gambit but it does feel like I don't die more often right now compared to the previous iterations.
Aegis: Poor Aegis. I like how the skill works right now. Although some might suggest to have an Empowered version be a quick cast too.

Siphon: The increase damage is really helpful in keeping CW alive more. Although CW faces mana problems in very long fights. What about having an Empowered Version where you can siphon MP as well?
Dominate: It's perfect. I love the animation too.
Rip: I'm on the fence with Soul Rip since the first iteration was really good. Although it works good right now. But the first iteration was just good. Maybe revert it back to the first iteration but remove Empowered version?
Vengeance: I think it would be better if the Normal and Empowered versions should have a bigger -All debuff and the Empowered version having -Boost as well just like with Obliterate.
Rebuke: I actually rarely use rebuke but it's good that it can crit now.
Shred: I think people rarely use this one but I like the increase damage now.
Untangle: I think these should get more Soul Threads (ST) considering CW lacks other ways to get STs.

As a whole:
As what the others have said, I think the Snap animation should be used for the Annihilation DoT. If possible, switch the names and effects of Soul Shred and Obliterate. Or perhaps, Obliterate can be the skill with the Annihilation DoT and Soul Shred could be renamed (or not) but it would stun and have -boost since it shreds the soul thus weakening it.
Also, CW has a problem with gathering STs after using up its "ammo", maybe the total capacity of STs can be increased from 2 to 3 or maybe even 4. And have one or two skills recover STs and have Unravel get more STs.

Sorry for the long post but I really commend Tomix and Verly for putting up with the community and giving out fast feedback.

Edit: Regarding Annihilation DoT/Mechanic, I assume the skill "checks" the mob's HP before the damage right? I wonder if it's possible to have the skill "check" the HP once the initial damage of the skill has been dealt, and then, it would check if it would be Annihilated? Might be too much of work for having Annihilation be more usable though.

< Message edited by LouisCyphere -- 9/19/2019 12:07:12 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 141

9/19/2019 21:07:10

Axpower
Member

I’m reluctant to comment because I love the current version so much. Personally, I think it’s very near completion, and am constantly amazed by the level of work that is put out by the team.

One thing however:

Empowered Vengeance feels silly for this class.The consuming of a soulthread for a small (arguably not too useful) debuff unrelated to damage doesn’t feel right with CW. I’d agree with removing the Empowered entirely, or switching back to increased -All resist.

Alternatively, the soulthread count could be bumped to 3 in order to allow more flexibility in rotations. Vengeance is a useful skill, but the soulthread use limits combinations with skills like Soul Aegis, which is necessary to survive for more than a fee turns against hard hitters.

All in all super amazing. Looking forward to the next changes!

EDIT: Some other shower thoughts:

If starting with 3 soulthreads is too powerful, maybe starting battle with 2 but capped at 3? And/or adding +1 soulthread to potion drinking maybe?

< Message edited by Axpower -- 9/19/2019 21:21:29 >

DF	Post #: 142

9/19/2019 22:28:21

EdyMaster
Member

CW really needs more ways to get soulthreads. I think starting the fight with 3/3 soulthreads would not make the class OP just more flexible. Still, there are other ways to improve this like:

1) add a new skill that recover soulthread and +1 or +2 slots to fill in (would start the fight with 2/3 or 2/4)
2) further reduce Untangle and Soul Assault's cooldown, which also helps CW deficiency in long fights

Another point is to have unnecessary effects when empowered (aka Vengeance) just embarrass instead of helping because if I want to use Vengeance just for its -all effect I would have to spend a soulthread to use it at the beginning of the fight. Vengeance definitely needs a review, either by removing soulthread consumption or improving the effect when empowered.

Shred also needs to be revised as its effect does not fit well in the class, its effect is not needed to defeat an enemy. I know the class doesn't have to be perfect, but I would love to see this skill with the effect of recovering a soulthred or so its Annihilation effect is improved.

Soul Slice still doesn't fit well in combos because the buff duration is so short, it would be interesting to have an empowered version with a longer effect and duration (+100 crit for 4 turns is certainly worth a soulthread). Or simply increase the default duration by 1 or 2 turns.

Gambit could also be improved by adding +50 immo to compensate for -50 all debuff to avoid complications with unwanted stuns and RNG. This also gives the player freedom to choose an END build and high immobility accessories to tackle a multi stun boss (there is currently no point in doing this with Gambit removing immo).

DF	Post #: 143

9/19/2019 23:00:31

TFS
Helpful!

Liking this latest iteration a lot. I think the only two gripes I have are that Empowered Vengeance feels weak (your raw damage is going to cancel out a lot more healing than +30 Health res will lol) and that the -BPD/MPM on Gambit make the blind on Empowered Obliterate feel kind of useless - maybe Gambit could go to just -400 MPM instead of -200 MPM/BPD? This is just nitpicking though, class is pretty good as it is right now imo.

DF	Post #: 144

9/20/2019 1:13:44

Ultima29
Member

I'm really liking the current iteration of the class but the -blind kinda conflicts with the -defenses from the gambit. As others have said maybe this could be changed to -boost. Also the the annihilation dot seems redundant because the class does so much damage anyways but I'm not sure what it could be changed to.

Overall I'm really liking the play-style because it is so unique compared to the other classes. The aesthetic is amazing as well and I'm really loving the black eyes. Great job guys!

Post #: 145

9/20/2019 2:11:57

Chaosweaver Amon
Friendly!

So far I'm liking this version as far as combat goes...haven't worked on it enough to be sure. What I do know, however, is that I am NOT a fan of the black eyes! I loved the eyes before! It dehumanizes the appearance of the character imo, even if it isn't a canon class...

DF	Post #: 146

9/20/2019 2:42:59

moe
Member

OkOk so can this new version defeat inn bosses?

AQW	Post #: 147

9/20/2019 2:57:17

JIKIL
Member

You can beat the entire dragon challenge and the bloodmoon challenges with ease using CW, at my personal experience.

Also didn't CW have a -50 boost before V3 came out?

< Message edited by JIKIL -- 9/20/2019 2:58:35 >

AQW	Post #: 148

9/20/2019 3:35:35

The_element
Member

If anybody is struggling with using the new ChW they could play around with the following rotation and build:

Player: Obliterate> Gambit> Vengeance (Show Ice Scythe)> Chi Bomb (Have STR gear+ Eat Gorrillaphant Knuckles)> Untangle (Show Lucky Hammer and Have INT gear)
Pet Dragon: Tickles> Overcharge> Mischief Stun
Sir Leon: Wound> Final> Stun
Bk3 Aegis: Domain> Shield> Serpent

Weapon: Soulforged (ice)+ show Ice scythe
Build: 200 STR+ 200 INT+ either 45 DEX or 45 WIS

Post #: 149

9/20/2019 14:05:15

Lues
Member

Bringers of Chaos?
Annnnnnd it's Kathool Atchoo again
It's always him, the Old One who resides in the Sea of Time
But it makes sense 'cause he's the Old One anyway
Glad to see another Water Elves here
And I think about Remthalas's word "They" and if he can enter their dreams, he can change reality...Dhe Ehm? Old Ones? Lords?....or The Primordial...

AQW	Post #: 150

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