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=AQ= Stat and Training Overhaul

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3/21/2022 13:26:42   
  The Hollow
AQ Lead


 Hey folks, we have a ton of exciting updates coming this week to stats and the way they are trained! Here is a list of the proposed changes:



Stat Goals:
- Remove BTH boosts from DEX so that it's no longer "required"
- STR's identity (Steady weapon damage, no falloff in long fights) is eventually outperformed by mages stacking boosts. Giving it a small boost to weapon attacks reinforces it while rewarding its use in hybrid builds.
- Spells+INT are in a good place, so no buffs needed
- CHA is overperforming, but we're still discussing what to do with it
- Throw in some minor non-damage buffs to DEX so that it can compare to STR
- Add some defensive buffs to END

Adjustments to existing stuff:
- Melee no longer uses DEX for BTH, just STR*3/20 + LUK/40. Ditto for Magic and INT.
- Ranged weapons no longer use STR for damage, just DEX/8
- Initiative is now based on DEX + LUK + STR/2 + INT/2
- Blocking is back at DEX/10 + LUK/20

New:
- All weapon attacks gain +STR/160 to damage (very roughly a 2.5% Melee damage boost)
- +DEX/50 status potence
- +END/50 status resistance.
- +[END/20]% to HP healing

(IMR is considered adding +CHA/2 to init)


Training:
  • Completely revamped UI.
  • Removal of all required battles for Training and Untraining.
  • Removal of Z-Token option, Training and Untraining will be gold-only.
  • Players will be able to train as many points as they want at a time in Battleon, limited only by their available funds and stat points.
  • Untraining in Battleon resets ALL stat points for a fee.
  • Untraining options for Estate Trainer will remain the same. The ability to Untrain as many points as needed, for free. Along with discounted Training.



    • AQ  Post #: 1
    3/21/2022 13:32:40   
    Deaf of Destiny
    Member

    		I main beastmaster and i do not feel like that CHA is not overpowered but I don't know why you said that since my pet and guest is not really high damage. my dream is that I let pets and guests gonna get high damage than I, myself gonna low damage toward monsters
    That's how CHA should be working for only pet/guest more damage in other games but this AQ cha is not the same as other games but ok.


    I also want to see more new tome and melee or range or any weapon-related to CHA to let pet/guest more boost damage.


    Since I already did test with 400 CHA and STILL LOW damage since you guys already did nerf CHA for damage in 2017-2018 maybe I could be wrong but I did correctly with those pet/guests for being tested.

    < Message edited by Deaf of Destiny -- 3/21/2022 14:00:32 >
    Post #: 2
    3/21/2022 13:46:58   
    sunblaze
    Member

    		^
    That kinda is a followup of the 200 max -> 250 max statchange. Beastmasters simply HAD to increase to keep status potence up to date, but that also increased damage and bth that maybe was not really intended.


    I personally do also not think its that outperforming but it currently is certainly on the strong side.
    So its a good thing to first change all the other stats and then discuss if it is still outperforming or maybe its now up-to-date with other buffed stats.

    Also yay for hybridbuilds or ranged-weapon users. Its a glorious day!
    AQ  Post #: 3
    3/21/2022 13:52:35   
    Inferno369
    Member

    		Same, not quite sure how Cha is overperforming - at the moment it's kinda under, since the BTH comes from Dex. Know it's a bit niche of a build, but would definitely love to see Cha have it's own strengths.

    In general I think it would be nice to act as it's own source like Int and Str, providing guests and pets with added BTH and damage.

    Never mind - i'd just like to see the bth and damage.


    < Message edited by Inferno369 -- 3/21/2022 14:33:30 >
    AQ  Post #: 4
    3/21/2022 14:05:57   
    zippinbolts
    Member

    		Beastmasters get unfair benefits from cha. Guests for instance are far cheaper than they should be and hypercrit is too strong with instances of pet healing.
    AQ AQW  Post #: 5
    3/21/2022 14:37:25   
    Zork Knight
    Member

    		If my math is not too wrong, maximum trainable STR would net you ~2.5% melee in weapon damage and 125 Initiative (about 5% melee?)
    While maximum trainable DEX would net you 25 MRM (41.67% melee), 5 Status Potence (5% melee) and 250 Initiative (~10% melee)

    Damage is king and all, but DEX seems much better than STR in this new scenario?
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 6
    3/21/2022 14:51:09   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		Charisma is not overperforming. It *is* extremely versatile and that may be where it's very powerful.

    BM's can attack + guest/pet.
    They can play defense and just do damage on guest/pet.
    They can buff MRM with certain pets/guests.
    They can get powerful regen of MP, SP, and HP with specific setups.
    They can still do damage even if the players does something that costs the player a turn.
    Multiple sources of damage are favorable versus damage capped bosses.


    This list goes on and on. It's the versatility.

    But IMO, that's also the trade off considering most damage enhancements via miscs, empowerment, etc etc are player only. Most quick casts only help the player, not guests and pets.

    AND, most of the BEST BM gear is Rare, seasonal, or otherwise difficult to obtain. Most *new* BM's are persuaded not to stay as one because of this. It takes a full year of seasonal rel-releases to get the best stuff. Even most GGB's and LTS stuff isn't for BM's.

    BM's are actually the step child. (Not more than Rangers, though)

    Charisma is the ultimate versatility stat for sure, but it's not "overperforming. No way.
    Post #: 7
    3/21/2022 14:57:18   
    Macho Man
    Member

    		Will pets continue to use DEX for BTH or will that part of the formula go into CHA? I'd like it if pets solely relied on CHA just like how melee will rely on STR. And I like the idea of adding in potency and resistances for some of the stats. It could add so much more to builds.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
    3/21/2022 15:01:42   
    Deaf of Destiny
    Member

    		Thank you! @sapphirecatalyst2021
    Post #: 9
    3/21/2022 15:07:05   
    Plushie Nugget
    Member

    		I'm afraid of what they might do to CHA.
    This is very worrying.
    Post #: 10
    3/21/2022 15:33:59   
    PD
    Member
     

    		 Now that the thread is here, my questions and comments:

    1. It's nice that the battles required for training will be removed - Stat Trainers are amongst the hardest enemies to fight in the early game. But this presents a design oversight - The only reason to now get an estate trainer is to train stats for free instead of paying for gold. Depending on who you ask and what level their character is farming for gold isn't particularly hard at later stages, but still incredibly hard early on even with Ballywho. Even with a supposed cap increase monsters at that level don't really give that much gold/exp. Affordability will still be an issue.

    2. Speaking of the above what is the gold cost of training going to be going forward? As I mentioned early game gold for stat training gets very expensive very fast, but means hardly anything at higher levels. Now that DEX won't be required for BTH you can just straight up train your MAINSTAT to max early on, although if costs don't change we'll still have issues.

    3. What's going to happen to Sir Pwnsalot? I saw on the twitter preview that untraining is now at the training camp. Pwnsalot is going to become obsolete unless you really care about untraining for free.

    4. A lot of monsters are still have the old stat arrangement of MAINSTAT + DEX. Is there a way that these monsters will get their stats updated for this or are we just going to get that much stronger while the monsters use obsolete stat builds?

    5. The changes to END are interesting. HP Healing and status resist? That may actually make Backlash more viable than it already is, except it should be easier to pull off a F2P setup with it. You might be even able to pull off a good tank warrior setup (250 STR/END/CHA or LUK) which hasn't been a trend in years because END is a comparatively dry stat.

    6. Nice that Rangers will finally have a more fleshed out identity that isn't just warriors targeting Ranged MRM. It's been a butt of jokes since at least 2007 and we can finally put the jokes to rest.

    7. I'd like to see what the UI looks like for Training/Untraining. I (and some others) had some dis-satisfaction with the Shop and Estates UI changes and hope that this one will be much more intuitive and simple to use. I think a good choice to use is sliders that has a step of 5 and a range of 0 to 250. You could conceivably combine training and untraining into 1 seamless input instead of requiring 2 menus and a lot of work for that. Unless it's not possible because of AS limitations.

    8. Not as educated as others are on AQ balance but it's my un-educated opinion that CHA is as strong as it is right now because of what uses it rather than the stat itself. Boosters, Backlashes, specific items that work really well with CHA (Love Potion, SFP, PCO, Gauntlets, etc). I feel like adjusting those specific problematic items will have much more value than adjusting a stat itself.

    9. So it appears the item balances won't happen in this update. Which is okay but at some point I'd like to see us cross that bridge.

    10. On mages stacking boosts - Like what I said on point #8, Maybe we should take a look at boost effects. They were indirectly hit with the recent PR update but otherwise they're still rather problematic and their existence necessitates various bubblewrap measures that only really exist because the items do as they do. It's a common refrain that Boosters and like mechanics are just bad for the game in general. That includes the quickcast things like Poca/Arcane Amp/Buffalot/Moonwalker. But I'm not sure how those can be reigned in without just getting rid of what they do. Ditto for items that do the same thing (blood/zerker blades and like)

    I'll probably say more specific things when we actually see what it's like. But these are what I have thought about for now.

    < Message edited by PD -- 3/21/2022 15:46:28 >
    Post #: 11
    3/21/2022 15:54:46   
    Branl
    Member

    		End is... in a weird spot right now.
    In terms of raw numbers, it definitely is over performing, but it's not a stat most people are willing to invest to unless you're willing to revert back to the meta where you were expected to run End.
    And the few items that work based off of End... have a tendency to exasperate the numerical strength of End and be too powerful. Beacon, Backlash, etc.

    But

    In the future, I see End likely needing to be nerfed in raw value while shifting towards functions to have it be more interesting a stat to take, but the problem is that incentivizing End compared to other stats that gave you more "satisfying" feedback, such as higher numbers, End is always kind of at a disadvantage.
    As far as Charisma goes, the problems with it have already been noted, Guests pay too little, pets do too much, and it's able to stand up in direct competition to other mainstats. There's also really weird interactions between Hypercrit and resource regenerating pets that breaks the framework of the game in a way the soon to be nerfed Essence Orb does as well.

    Interested to see how the init changes + Str/Dex/Int affects things. Makes Trad Hybrid an... interesting proposition. Biggest winner seems to be Ranger/Mage hybrids right now.



    AQ DF  Post #: 12
    3/21/2022 17:26:30   
    dizzle
    Member
     

    		 I wouldn’t say CHA is over performing I just think it has severely broken items/interactions with different items that make your char insanely OP. At the very least (it hurts me to say this) we should be paying the right amount of resources for the companions.. As of right now the standard guest upkeep is far lower than it should be for whatever reason. After we start paying the right amount for guest upkeep, I think the broken interactions that are accessible with CHA should be looked at first as opposed to the stat itself. Just my opinion

    I’m hype about the stat revamp tho hopefully we get some juicy new builds/play styles without DEX being all but mandatory in order to land hits!
    AQ  Post #: 13
    3/21/2022 18:23:34   
    bvd
    Member

    		tbh, there should be more buffs to spells/int/magic weapons and cha
    AQ  Post #: 14
    3/21/2022 19:12:31   
    Legendary Ash
    Member

    		Optimization Academy of Lore: Builds and Combat Expectations has the detailed breakdown of damage output for the four different Pure builds that includes Luck, the conclusion is that Beastmaster outperforms all other builds

    The previous balance assumption where melee percentages excludes Luck for the following placed Cha's contribution at Pet +20% Guest base 25% (transferred from weapon's -25% penalty) +25% from resource upkeep +10% from decompression for +45% melee that compared to Warrior/Ranger/Mage 's Mainstat is 5% less, however the total per turn with Cha equipment is 100% melee due to other mentioned factors.
    The above assumption was dismantled with Cha Mainstat weapons being introduced, which added +75% melee for a total of 120% melee compared to Warrior/Ranger/Mage 's averaged 100% per turn, with the additional Pet base +20% and Sp base +25%.

    Proposed change to fix Cha's overperformance
    One direct method of balancing Warrior/Ranger/Mage to Beastmaster is to change the standard of Pets from Beastmaster to build-neutral, they can be any Mainstat without a penalty, this would contribute +20% for Warrior/Ranger/Mage to bring it up to the level of Beastmaster's output.
    AQ  Post #: 15
    3/21/2022 19:20:40   
    Kaizoku
    Member

    		I'm very pleased with these changes. Buff to STR and recognizing its inherent difference from INT builds (as much as players can insist Warriors should nuke as well as Mages). DEX not being a mandatory stat finally opens up build versatility. END receiving defensive buffs is much appreciated, it was sorely lacking in appeal compared to other stats. I might actually consider a sort of Tank Warrior build now. Status Potence from DEX is also a really cool idea!
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 16
    3/21/2022 19:26:21   
    dizzle
    Member
     

    		 I like Legendary Ash’s idea^^
    AQ  Post #: 17
    3/21/2022 20:05:43   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		If Legendary says the math shows BM's over-performing comparatively, it likely is...AT BASE ASSUMPTIONS. The game is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more than base assumptions, which quite frankly, aren't realistic. Base is never optimal, and meta optimization will *always* rule the day. Base is just a starting point to compare, and should never dictate the entire picture. At the end of the day, I GUARANTEE you it's FAR easier to surpass this with items/buffs/quick casts. 95% of stuff help player attacks and almost nothing boosts BM guest/pet attacks and what does exist, 98% of that is locked behind seasonal quests, LTS yearly rares, etc etc etc.



    Might be a lot of work, and not entirely against Legendary's "fix", but a bit of a piggyback with a twist on Legendary's suggestion...

    Pets attack with Melee, Ranged, and Magic Attacks.

    Perhaps... if Charisma is = to Mainstat (Int/Str/Dex), pet damage comes from charisma. Then make Mainstat dictate pet damage *if* the pet attacks with your trained Mainstat. (like non BM builds)

    So a Mage's INT provides the stat damage (the +20% Legendary is referencing) for pets that *only* attack with magic attacks. The same for Dext-> Ranged attacks, and Str-> Melee attacks.

    This makes a BM use Char for all pets but makes a non-BM have to use their mainstat to buff their pets, but only pets attacking with the mainstat they trained. This limits what pets pure characters use, but doesn't what BM's use.

    A Warrior will gain the 20% legendary is speaking of *only* using pets who attack with Melee attacks. A Mage will gain the 20% legendary is speaking of *only* using pets who attack with Magic attacks. A Ranger will gain the 20% legendary is speaking of *only* using pets who attack with Ranged attacks.


    This solution, while more work and has higher difficulty in implementing, IMO keeps BM exclusivity for all pets, and makes specific builds have limits on what is best for them. This also allows staff to design pets that might be made FOR pure builds, too, and not just BM's, in a similar fashion as to how regular stuff gets changed to "charisma" based like some weapons and spells. You could have a pet specifically for "warriors" or "rangers" . The charisma add-on idea, but reverse. This would provide more variety in what staff can do, and keeps stuff becoming so repetitive and stale. (the weapon special argument, kind of)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Two more points, and a question:

    quote:

    - Ranged weapons no longer use STR for damage, just DEX/8


    Pure Mages just became Ranged weapon users, so this now pushes mages ahead in damage over time


    quote:

    - Melee no longer uses DEX for BTH, just STR*3/20 + LUK/40. Ditto for Magic and INT.



    I would honestly recommend scaling BTH for mainstat back to 31.25, and double luck's from 6.25 to 12.5. (Like you did with blocking) You just indirectly buffed END builds by no longer sacrificing large swaths of BTH in favor of HP's, such as backlash. Backlash just got massive buffs.
    Secondary and Tertiary stat decisions should have ~ Equal trade-offs. I don't see leaving HP formulas the same with END, adding a regen factor, and buffing BTH for them as balanced, especially now that Dex now plays a role in status infliction and initiative, lowering luck's old "role". Luck just got the biggest nerfbat out of this, not Dex. It's simply somewhat indirect.

    If you increase luck's role in BTH, which just lost initiative potency, and status inflict potency to Dex indirectly, luck may very well be viewed as the weakest stat, and not even close. At least give it the BTH helper (and a slight scale-back of Mainstat) to move it more in line with Dex's and End's newfound direct and indirect features.


    quote:


    Charisma


    As it pertains to BTH, with pets/guests, and charisma weapons, is DEX removed from these also and is purely from Charisma like the other stats?

    I just don't like open and assumed interpretations and when things aren't explicitly said. Just making sure.


    < Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 3/21/2022 21:10:31 >
    Post #: 18
    3/21/2022 21:11:43   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		Also maybe not a great time to ask, but will we see weapon specials ever get looked at to compete more with other options in all armor types?
    Post #: 19
    3/21/2022 22:26:49   
    Korriban Gaming
    Banned


    		 I echo many of the other sentiments here. I do not think CHA is overpowered currently. I hope the goal isn't to make pets/guests completely not worth using without investment in CHA. I also think adding CHA/2 to init is contradictory to how you guys think CHA is overperforming since that will essentially be a small buff and give people more reason to use CHA?

    I have also seen talks on nerfing guest damage and increasing its upkeep cost. I do not agree with this as such a huge nerf will essentially make guests not worth using at all.
    *As a sidenote, I know this isn't confirmed but can we have such postings, especially if done by the staff, be on official channels like the Forums or AEO instead? So more people can join in the discussion rather than on a 3rd party Discord where not everyone may be a part of

    Giving DEX status potence as well seems like overkill, I don't think that is needed. All other changes seem good though.

    I am slightly conflicted regarding the changes to training. On one hand, I really appreciate the QoL changes that benefits everyone, but on the other hand, those who have spent tokens on the estate trainers in the past got shafted. May I suggest then that stat point training be completely free for those with the estate trainers once leveled up to max? The cost is still insignificant at level 150 but at least it gives players a stronger reason for the purchase of the estate trainers as opposed to a pathetic 25% discount.


    This may or may not be related to the stat changes (SP upkeep cost for guests, amongst other things) but I'll put this here since we're on the topic of balancing stuff in the game.
    Alot of things already cost SP (skills, buffs, guest upkeep, misc upkeep etc), nerfing that even further means you are restricted to using very few of those per battle which is not only disregarding those who have more than one paid item that costs SP in their inventory but also restricts build variety by alot. I personally think anything SP related is currently in a good spot after the nerfs to PR. The only 2 SP related items that needs changing/nerfing are the Fae and Metoid Jelly pets.

    Also, balance on paper =/= balance in the game. I am not someone who is knowledgeable regarding math in the game but what I do know is that just because it makes sense on paper doesn't mean it will make sense in the game (Neko Doll, Revenant, Living Armor). Rather than ensuring that everything is following the same math/balance "standard", why not just playtest the items in the game with a few other meta items and see how it fares up? I personally think being so caught up in the numbers on paper blinds you to how the item actually performs in-game.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 20
    3/21/2022 22:48:36   
    Noremak Soothsayer
    Member

    		I'm so happy. As a warrior main, I've been waiting for the chance to dump dex and get END. I've been running 250 STR, 150 dex, and the rest LUK. Hybrids are also going to be happy as the pure hybrids are no longer stuck in werepyre. Heck, my DEX LUK CHA character will also be happy with a damage buff.
    Post #: 21
    3/21/2022 22:49:28   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    		First thoughts:

    - Weapons and spells now use MainStat for accuracy, but nothing has been mentioned about pets and guests. Do they still need to pay the Dex tax?

    - Initiative feels like a mishmash of things. I thought the plan was to make it a save with Dex/Luck for stats? It seems needlessly overcomplicated at the moment - and without solving the issue of player stacking boosts to guarantee first turn.

    - Luck feels like it fell out of its niche and got stuck in freefall. Dex can do all the same things, more or less (with 2x the blocking, but half the status potency), while also doubling your ranged weapon damage.

    - Likewise, as Zork Knight mentioned, Str has become comparatively obsolete. Dex can do all the same things (short only half an mc's worth of damage), but gives blocking, status potency and 2x the initiative.

    - +[END/20]% to HP healing. Is this a Regeneration-like effect that restores some hp every turn or does this alter your HealRes?
    AQ DF  Post #: 22
    3/21/2022 23:11:41   
      Lorekeeper
    And Pun-isher

     

    		 Balance in the game isn't performed exclusively via mathematical comparison. There is a set of standards that evolve when challenged by fact, and otherwise inform decisions. Both of these must be balanced with fun/interesting concepts when designing an item. There has been no shortage of mathematically balanced items that nonetheless came out overpowered or underpowered, and human error can result in either - With precious little time to correct a backlog of such.

    As of communication, that is the very purpose of this thread. Responses to other mediums do not happen to the exclusion of talking here, but there are ultimately so many conversations that I can multitask, and so I'm participating in one medium at a time. With forum discussions being the most time consuming, I trust responding within a day is not seen as unreasonable.

    It's understandable to have any reluctance to see a feature perform under its current power level. It's always annoying to have to nerf something, but the observation that Charisma is overperforming is neither arbitrary nor a contradiction of facts. To address that, I'll move on to correcting what is only partially and indirectly being alluded to above:

    Guests provide an output that is well above what they pay for. They should be paying 48% of a spell per turn, but cost 17.5% of one instead. This is something that I explained elsewhere as a response to queries, and answers the matter of overperformance before getting into the fact that assumptions for pets/guests (Such as costs for ones that provide boosts) are inconsistent and in need of review. However, and this is where a line must be drawn, there was no official statement of design intent about "nerfing guest damage and increasing its upkeep cost". Having been the staff member who joined balance discussions in the Tavern server, I can personally attest to this.

    In fact, increasing guest upkeep cost wouldn't be a practical solution. What was posted was an explanation that correcting this discrepancy through a sweep of guest costs would be logistically implausible because of how costs are handled in the individual item files.

    I'm happy to join the discussion here as well as my obligations allow, but I would request that there be no further misrepresentation of statements made here or elsewhere. Quoting my actual posts would be far preferable to any unintentional misinformation through vague allusions.

    Thank you.



    On the general changes: The stats do need to balance out in the end, but because a complete revamp can't happen in one day, this won't be the case right off the bat. This release contains the essential steps to stop the collapse of multiple builds and provide direction for addressing the ripples. It merits stressing once again, then, that these changes are neither finalized, nor the only ones that will happen. These are the proposed changes.

    About the specific discrepancies:

    I've had a proposal in place for benefits for each stat for a while now, but my ideas that would've helped to give benefits that don't provide a mathematical imbalance were not feasible for a one week release and would've called for more hands on deck at once. So if the attention doesn't seem evenly spread to start with, a lot of it is because the workload in my ideas wasn't uniform across the stat. So with one of the suggestions having an uneven workload distribution, the attention was invariably not going to be spread evenly as there was a lower volume of ideas for STR as a result.

    With all of that in mind: STR and DEX. We're very aware that they got very different value from the changes. This is related to some problems:

    STR is in an odd spot. With a core build identity of steady damage, there's a razor thin line between too little and too much. Too much of a buff and it becomes a nuking encouragement instead of a reward for including the stat. Too little, and it still unbalances the stat while feeling underwhelming. We would absolutely love serious suggestions for this as we discuss it internally as well.

    < Message edited by Cray -- 3/21/2022 23:17:42 >
    Post #: 23
    3/21/2022 23:22:40   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    		What about reducing Str/Dex stat bonuses to damage down to Int level (25%)? Then Dex gives a bevy of various benefits, and Str can give another 25% damage to all weapon attacks?

    (because you may be unable to cast spells with that fancy staff, but it's still a big honking stick to beat up people with)
    AQ DF  Post #: 24
    3/21/2022 23:35:41   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		Maybe I missed something, and I did mention it, and I haven't seen anyone else piggyback on it, which begets the preface.

    Doesn't this change to Ranged weapons for BTH and mostly damage, mean Mages who trained Dex just get themselves warrior attack damage? And there's absolutely NO reason to continue using magic weapons if this were to not be re-evaluated? Even warriors are claiming why train strength?
    Post #: 25
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