RE: =AQ= PaleSkull Champion Set Contest Suggestions


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9/4/2022 8:11:00

LUPUL LUNATIC
Member

quote:

Misc:
+50 CHA/LUK
x0.5 [Element] Resist

Effect: Pays 20% misc damage bonus + MC and attempts to inflict a ([20+5]/0.7/0.85/1.4x[Hits/Attempts])% = 30.01x[Hits/Attempts]% Choke for 1 turn after all player normal attacks, specials, spells, etc. This has a -20 Save Bonus, player MainStat/LUK vs. monster END/LUK

Set Bonus (Requirements: Misc + Shield + Weapon): The above Choke is instead a ([20+15]/0.7/0.85/1.4x[Hits/Attempts])% = 42.02x[Hits/Attempts]% Choke for 1 turn

- Upkeep: At lv 150, the upkeep for this would be ~93 SP

I do honestly think the resistance should be removed, it is -50% damage misc which comes with another Choke effect that also a damage negating effect, and it applies to the Choke part too so in the sense it kinda halves the effect of Choke because of the -50% Resist. This is what i can see as anti synergy on the misc.

Maybe instead of -50% Resist it could have a +DamageTaken modifier instead (for further synergy with Choke effects like Shield also has). And it could be used to "pay" for having 20 Choke Potency.

Because the Shield comes with 2 toggles, the MC is spent on the toggles (they are not free see Frost Titan Shield) its preferably to just have the Potency on the misc.
And also because we do not know the number of hits the armor will have i stil suggest Shield being based on monster hits as mechanic, the numbers are completely at dev's choice how strong they would be.

AQ	Post #: 51

9/4/2022 8:57:12

Primate Murder
Member

@ Gwen

I'd like to note that I said not a word about the donations armor. Regarding the pet, if the notion of any opinion differing from your own offends you so, then I apologize. I'll speak no more of it.

However, 100 people won the weapon, and literally anybody who plays the game had a chance to get the misc and shield. To say that they get no say in its design, that they shouldn't even be allowed to make suggestions in a suggestion thread... it's unsportsmanlike and outright disheartening.

I like to think that we're better than that.

@ RobynJoanne

Thank you for a detailed breakdown of your issues with my suggestion. Even if I disagree on some points, the analysis is welcome - it's always difficult to objectively judge one's own ideas. Let's see if I can assuage any of your concerns.

Shield

I take it the issue is with the rarity of the Choke and Panic effects? In that case, would it be more acceptable if the skill extended to any statuses that negatively affected your attack? Choke and Panic, Blind, the Cold, Entangle, Unlucky, etc.

I disagree on bth leans, though. That makes every effect paid for via MRM - as well as -26% shields and armors that have high resistances at the expense of blocking - equally 'free'. Perhaps I'd agree if the effect surpassed 15% expected accuracy, but I don't think +10 bth lean goes that far.

Weapon (melee)

You're probably right. I was going more for the thematic component - that of tearing through the monster's armor - but it could be done in a manner that synergizes better with the rest of the set.

Likewise, the special was meant to channel the power of Castle Paleskull. Perhaps it could be turned into a skill - maybe Dadriel's suggestion of paying a turn for a permanent buff?

Weapon (magic)

I take it the main issue is that it uses new and unique statuses? That, uh, is kind of the point though? New effects are usually fun to play around with and expand the game in new and unexpected directions. On a personal level, I find them far more interesting than simply reshuffling old mechanics.

Misc

I may have been unclear here. My bad. The skill is not quickcast - it's closer to Bronze Kettle. A spell that costs your turn (and your pet's turn in this case) and no additional resources. A super-efficient spell, so to speak.

***

In the end, I don't think my ideas are the most intersting or well-balanced ones out there. I have my faults and blindspots, I admit, but I do want to get the community engaged, actually thinking and throwing out ideas - a true think tank instead of agreeing to the first suggestion posted.

Post #: 52

9/4/2022 12:46:25

Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding at play. Input was asked of players who won each item, which entails an inherent priority, but doesn't mean that other players can't make suggestions to them-- with an understanding of said priority and that winners may or may not like them. The priority and an open discussion aren't mutually exclusive, and neither should feel encroached on by the other if we establish both friendly boundaries and common ground.

There's an inherent complication to collectively coming up with a set and its internal synergies when different amounts of players have input on each item. Without a preemptive pursuit of common ground, even tiered as it may be, it's easy to suddenly find ourselves talking at each other rather than having an actual conversation. This is perhaps something that we could better facilitate as a team, and I could relay suggestions for a more helpful format for the discussion. For instance, would it be easier for the community to come together with the support structure of a subforum for future donation sets, with overall set and individual piece discussion threads?

Post #: 53

9/4/2022 13:42:50

Jue Viole Grace
Member

Please make a sniper bow and im just excited to get a full set lol

Post #: 54

9/4/2022 13:51:56

GwenMay
Member

I feel like I need to clarify what I said earlier about "priority." I made two points on the topic: (1) it would be unfair for staff to pick suggestions from people who didn't win a prize when those suggestions aren't supported by anyone who did win that prize and (2) the opinions of people who donated more should be prioritized over the opinions of people who donated less.

Unfortunately, people in this thread (@SapphireCatalyst2021 and @Primate Murder) took what I said to mean "if you didn't win a prize, you shouldn't make a suggestion for that prize" and "people who didn't donate a lot shouldn't make suggestion." Now, it's easy to respond to a strawman argument, but I never said that. Obviously I think it's good for people who didn't win top prizes to make suggestions, because the suggestion I support had a lot of input from Lv 1000, who didn't win top prizes. At the risk of repeating myself for a third time, I just think if a suggestion is picked, it should at least be supported by people who actually won that prize, and that in a sea of suggestions, staff should prioritize the opinions of those who donated the most. A suggestion supported by 16 (possibly 17 with PD) of the top 25 should, I think, receive more consideration than a suggestion supported by a single, lower-tier donator. That doesn't mean they can't make suggestions, just that they should *do the work* of getting other people to support their suggestions.

So, in short, I agree with what @Lorekeeper just posted, and in fact said exactly that in my first post on the subject. As for @Lorekeeper's idea of making the suggestion discussion more open, I think the key is to post the suggestion thread a few weeks in advance, so people who only participate in the community on the forums have more time to make their suggestions heard. As it is, they really only had a few days to make suggestions this year, because staff is going to start making items pretty soon. The simple fact is, we knew this thread was coming this year, so a lot of people were debating ideas on discord months ago, and this specific idea began to take shape the moment the PaleSkull art was revealed. That's a big leg up over people who on participate on the forums, so if we want to make this "fairer" the thread should likely go up as soon as the set art is revealed. That would also reduce the influence of the winners, because we wouldn't have "winners" yet.

Finally, on another note, there has been some talk of changing the misc and shield suggestion from Dreiko's post. I still support the original idea for both items. The misc is a generic damage boost with choke potency; it's strong, effective, and synergistic, and overall a reward that I think anyone who won the misc would appreciate. As for the shield, I definitely understand the argument that the suggestion as-is is too strong. Two things will keep it from being as ridiculous in practice as it seems on paper, though: first, the player would have to be hit first to get any benefit from the shield, and second, damage caps on bosses means the shield is really only good for mobs. Needing to be hit first means the shield's boost can double up with initiative and isn't the best for warring/quick mob clears, because you generally want to go first with that. Also, the shield would only offer protection for 1/8th of monsters; otherwise, you're basically getting hit without a shield in exchange for the damage boost. Damage caps also limit its usefulness against bosses, so it's really only good for mobs/heal looping, which has anti-synergy with the requirement you get hit. Obviously, the shield will be very strong in certain situations, but that is what a good shield is supposed to do imo. But, if staff still things the shield suggestion is still too strong, then I suggest staff keeps the same design and just lowers the amount of eleempower it gives and/or remove the toggle to spend SP to increase ele empower.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 55

9/4/2022 14:21:17

Sapphire
Member

Gwen,
We took it that way because the post did in fact come off that way. We all recognize that the winners input should have a heavier weight, but the posts going back to listing everyone who supported the idea and then following that up with your last post just came off to me as an overt attempt to squash outside ideas, unintended or not.

It's all good as long as everyone is allowed input.

From here we can all move onto a more pleasant conversation and focus on fleshing out ideas perhaps. -hugs-

The shield and misc might be the two items with the most PoV's.

In taking the two items and fine tuning, I would say

The Shield- Some may feel as though it needs an "starter" amount similar to golden head dragon shield. I found no issue with this considering it has precedent, and it still essentially keeps the spirit of the idea in tact. Feels like a worthy compromise, which is something the original idea-makers aren't willing to budge on for some reason.
I have concerns that this would be the new CiT pre-nerf, which is why I think it should be a toggle where blocks = elepower and hits = choke, that way a wider swath of players can use the shield as a stand alone.
But if you all wish to not budge on the mechanic, I would just recommend compromising and give it a 1.05% starter amount and reconfigure what the rest will look like...ie maybe the 11.88% needs to come down a hair.

The Misc- Its strong, but very generic. It also does too much and will result in a massive SP upkeep and for me that's a no-go. And as Lupul said, a .5 wind mod on top of choking is only going to make this set OP as can be. In most cases, when items do too many things and thus that limits the strength of the things it does, it's probably not going to be as useful as a more focused misc. The .5 mod needs to go in favor of stronger other abilities or just a reduced upkeep.

If we were to diverge from the idea altogether, which I recommend, I would do something more like summoning stone in that it toggles with 2 completely different effects, to allow for multiple players to use the item. Thats the fairest way to go. I would keep choke potency on both modes but figure out effects that both synergize with the set, and then maybe another effect that could work as a stand alone if players wanted to use it by itself with other stuff. Thats my recommendation.

I will throw in my 2 cents on the weapon. I still would like to see a 0 proc then 30 proc toggle, and the special fires at 30% rate but just takes the melee value of a 30% special and transfers the damage to the pet. IMO, this makes sense if anyone has ever watched the cartoon. He-Man's sword buffs the cat. A revision of sorts for my weapon idea.

0 proc version, you all can have whatever you want.

30 proc version, add an all elevuln mechanic just like ancient mother's staff/independent daygur. Here, instead of the 5.36% it's reduced by .80 for being all elevuln (always useful) to make it 4.28% all elevuln for every guest and pet landed hit.
Then the 30 proc transfers it's damage to the pet for +333% pet damage.

Yes, this is a new idea, but it feels like on paper it shouldn't be an issue with balance since it's simply a damage transfer mechanic.

I wanted to give it a nod towards BM's because none of this stuff ever is and we always focus on FO stuff. And once again, a toggleable ability caters to a wider group of players and these items IMO shouldn't JUST be about the entire set. If someone just received the weapon, these abilities will make them happy too.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 9/4/2022 16:27:20 >

Post #: 56

9/4/2022 18:49:47

Branl
Member

The most I'll say on the matter of "say" here, is that the top 25 should ultimately have final say on the armor specifically, and because this is a full set, it would determine the "direction" of the rest of the items, without resulting in a situation where the items are only partially functional without higher tier rewards (I really didn't like Frostwyrm's Shield having a FSB with the armor).

But, I don't think top 25 should really have an "edge" on the other items. If a player outside the 25, but otherwise have still a lower tier item makes a better or more workable suggestion than what the top 25 does, I think it's fine to go with that suggestion. This thread is open to the public for a reason, if we could just run roughshod over everyone's suggestion, there's probably no point in making it public.

My objection to the misc isn't really that it will be weak, my objection is that it's ultimately just a Loaded Dice clone with a generic damage boost. I do fear that generic damage boost will make the Sp cost of the thing unwieldy, and I think we can be a little more creative than that. Maybe a QC skill, since a regular misc skill would make a set already crowded with skills even more crowded.

My objection to the shield is twofold:
1) Effect on enemy hit is biased against Rangers. I'm a filthy Dex haver, so I'd prefer the effect to be more generalized, and thus, I'm admittingly biased against on (being) hit effects. I don't see the harm in it being an effect based on player hit.
2) While Empower can be variable in performance depending on monster damage cap, the weapon can eat Empower for an equivalent Choke. I doubt that's something the staff missed.
3) Ultimately, I'm looking for a overall cohesive design direction that most people agree with, but also has the highest chance at being implemented as is. Given the negative reception toward the changes staff made to the Frostwyrm weapon, I think it's in our best interests to make suggestions with the greatest likelihood of being implemented as is.

< Message edited by Branl -- 9/4/2022 18:50:32 >

Post #: 57

9/4/2022 19:52:19

PD
Member

Added a some revisions on my alternative take on the PaleSkull:

Pet now inflicts a Fragile.
Shield suggestion now has 2 variations on its omni-elemental damage block.
Variation 3 of the Melee Weapon is no longer once-per turn, but pays SP to purge effects.
Reduced Instakill Effect from 10% -> 30% to 10% -> 25%. FSB contribution reduced from 5% -> 3.75%.
Added a variation to the Havok Staff suggestion.

Post #: 58

9/5/2022 0:14:06

Korriban Gaming
Member

Shield:
Literally why would you turn an initially good suggestion into a "not-so-good one"...
I'd much prefer if we can keep the original effect and numbers of the shield but I'll just give some feedback on the other suggestions

quote:

MC: Toggles between 2 modes:
Potence Mode: -20 Choke Potence
EleEmpower Mode: Pays +(15/1.4)% damage taken + MC to apply a +(20/0.85/2x1.01)% = +11.88% damage Omni ELeEmpower effect for 1 turn for every hit that the player connects with on their previous turn (with the shield equipped). This has a cap of 4 hits, or +47.53% damage.

For the same reasons that Lupul mentioned, this isn't great

quote:

Choke Potency 10
2 Toggles- Toggle 1-> Inflicts Choke when hits land, grows per landed hit
Toggle 2-> Player gains ElePower per blocked hit, grows per blocked hit Both SP upkeeps

Interesting suggestion, personally am a fan of it. Am ok with the paying for the toggles as per Robyn's suggestion. Leaning towards paying in -3MRM. Increasing potency to 20 with just the Shield and Misc seems pretty OP to me as well

quote:

Perhaps the shield could have a guaranteed damage reduction mechanic like Hyperaldephian Shield. I know you've (RobynJeanne) said that in the past the Hyperaldelphian Shield may actually be overpowered because damage blocks aren't well adjusted to the balance model, but what if it just granted a flat damage reduction once per battle? I think that could be viable. So a couple variations of it:

Version 1: Toggle the Shield to activate a omni-elemental damage block.

Version 2: Once per battle, for the next turn only, you can get an omni-elemental shield.

Version 3: A literal copy of Fazhad Cozy Mogloo. Toggle SP to get reduced Wind Damage.

Guaranteed damage reduction mechanics usually end up very bad because of mathematical balance. Especially for flat damage reduction. % based ones aren't as bad though. HOWEVER, I do very much like version 2. Would be nice if we can have a combination of both versions 1 and 2. A toggleable omni-elemental shield. The main problem however is that it has literally no synergy with the entire set, it's just a generic shield. You can make the arguments with regards to choke and damage reduction but I would prefer to see it have something that actually involves the choke or ele empower status

quote:

Passive effect: all monster attacks gain +10 bth lean.

MC: cleanses you of all Choke and Panic statuses and replaces them with EleEmpowerment (all; power: 1.1x, lasts until the end of the battle). First time is free; each subsequent costs 100% melee sp.

Not a fan of this personally. I think the +10 bth lean is a waste. How many monsters inflict Choke and/or Panic on you in the game? It's too niche to be good. Extending this to any negative statuses that affects your attacks wouldn't do much to help the item out either. These are super rare cases.

Misc:
The original idea proposed by Lv1000 and Dreiko while not inherently bad, could be more unique after seeing the suggestions here.

quote:

+50 Cha + 50 End
2 Toggles- Toggle 1-> Scaling Stat Increase-> The more choke % is on the monster, the more STR/DEX/INT is added to your stats for attacks/spells the next round. (/2 for spells?) 0% Choke = +100 stat. This is for 1 round.
Tops out at +100 added onto your stats if 0% choke. This is not a choke eater, rather just a damage enhancer if choke is inflicted and grows as choke grows.

Toggle 2-> Inflicts HP barrier each round and will do so even if you don't attack like the Daw miscs, gains in potency based on wind element. HP barriers enhance choke effects.

Very interesting idea!

quote:

Anything used would be arbitrary nonsense.

To be fair, when standards are first introduced or when new standards are introduced, the numbers are all arbitrary anyway. Only after a period of time do they become the "standard" for other items. Stifling creativity in the name of balance is not something that I'm a fan of. We have tons of fun misc items that don't exactly follow the standards and that's what makes them fun and good to begin with. Considering this is going to be a premium perma-rare item that only a handful of current, active players who actually donated something will get (even if it's a small amount), I don't see the problem with making an exception. Balance is important, but exceptions have been made before. Can it be made for a perma-rare, premium item? I don't see why not

quote:

I had the idea that since Skeletor has vast powers of telepathy, that this could function similar to Talados Pendant where it provides additional Status Potency towards "Mental" Effects including Fragile. Perhaps we could revive an idea from Hyperaldelphian Dragon Fang that this could also inflict a Fragile Status.

Again, no synergy with choke or ele empower. I like the fragile idea but the status potency is meh to me

quote:

A nice idea though wouldn't have much synergy with the rest of the set assuming it's choke and ele empower so unfortunately this is gonna be a no from me.
+50 CHA/LUK
x0.5 [Element] Resist

Effect: Pays 20% misc damage bonus + MC and attempts to inflict a ([20+5]/0.7/0.85/1.4x[Hits/Attempts])% = 30.01x[Hits/Attempts]% Choke for 1 turn after all player normal attacks, specials, spells, etc. This has a -20 Save Bonus, player MainStat/LUK vs. monster END/LUK

Set Bonus (Requirements: Misc + Shield + Weapon): The above Choke is instead a ([20+15]/0.7/0.85/1.4x[Hits/Attempts])% = 42.02x[Hits/Attempts]% Choke for 1 turn

- Upkeep: At lv 150, the upkeep for this would be ~93 SP

Agree with Lupul's take on both Choke and damage negation having not much synergy

With regards to suggestions and who should have the biggest say, I feel that ANYONE should be free to throw out suggestions even if they had not won anything. However, I do feel that the biggest decision makers should be the top donors (aka top 25). Not that top 50 or top 100 should have no say at all but the overall direction of the set should be decided by the biggest whales and maybe top 50 and/or top 100 can debate on the set items based off the general direction/effects. It is simply impossible to please every single person unless everyone gets their own custom set (which would obviously be impossible) so the most logical way would be to go with the suggestions that the top donors likes/supports the most.

< Message edited by Korriban Gaming -- 9/5/2022 10:05:04 >

AQW

Post #: 59

9/5/2022 9:11:36

LUPUL LUNATIC
Member

quote:

My objection to the shield is twofold:
1) Effect on enemy hit is biased against Rangers. I'm a filthy Dex haver, so I'd prefer the effect to be more generalized, and thus, I'm admittingly biased against on (being) hit effects. I don't see the harm in it being an effect based on player hit.

While effects on enemy hit are worse now for Rangers, the effects on block compensate this now too because you do get more blocking. Its just the nature of the build.
The only thing i definitely disliked about your approach was the using of turn delay. Remember when old Poes had turn delay? They were changed.
Why add Elemental Empowerment on turn delay on a FO setup ? While i agree on not suggesting OP things i agree on at least using the most fair/balanced mechanics it exists (if it has a precedent) on the donation items. This means adding a 1st turn start then on 2nd turn do x (in terms of Shields like Golden Head has) instead of x1.01.

I am on the same opinion as Gwen that i like the initial shield design and if numbers are too high, then they can be adjusted.
As for Misc, i agree that it is just a Loaded Dice, good but boring. And considering the last 3 miscs released (Optico/Mutter/L'ouis) we could definitely did better with some toggles. I dislike the x[Element] Resist i just wish it did a toggle instead (like "Get the Power" i suggested), otherwise its nothing wrong with it well other than chunking SP upkeep as was already stated by Aerin.

< Message edited by LUPUL LUNATIC -- 9/5/2022 9:28:34 >

AQ	Post #: 60

9/5/2022 11:02:33

Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

I'd like to make a quick correction before this thread derails into a discussion about balance itself, so it can stay on topic past this post:

If the set introduces a new mechanic that requires the creation of a new standard, it would be just that - A new standard, to be followed by any other items that use a new mechanic. AdventureQuest is not a pay to win game, and we can't deliberately make paid exceptions to how item mechanics work. It would be a major ethical issue and really increase Kam and IMR's workloads going forward to maintain conflicting standards. Once again, please refer to the explanation of what balance is in the context of AQ for the breakdown of why this is the case.

Post #: 61

9/7/2022 19:08:46

.*. .*. .*.
Pfft hahaha!

Not going to dive into mechanics nor balance because I was never good with that.

I just get a beastmaster feel from the way the armour looks like, so I would be very happy if some of these items could be beastmaster friendly since I believe none of the other donation sets ever had one so that would be a nice change, but that is just my opinion.

Also hoping for Orko to be the pet, maybe named as OhNo, since he usually messed up in the show.

Anyhow I am curious how these items will turn out, and if they will be a tribute to He-Man?

Post #: 62

9/7/2022 19:31:09

Dreiko Shadrack
Member

the pet is the sad looking tiger from the preview. [Image]

< Message edited by Dreiko Shadrack -- 9/7/2022 19:32:04 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 63

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