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RE: =AQ= Entropy Saga Finale

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5/1/2023 23:39:11   
icetears
Member

Amazing finale and the boss was a real challenge. The reward armour is nice as well. I would agree to change the skills as proposed by chaotic and sapphire
Post #: 26
5/2/2023 15:04:35   
Aura Knight
Banned


 The "bug fix" ruined this. Can we please stop forsaking fun? Much as this sucks to hear, AQ will not attract a new audience. It's a relic of a game with a loyal enough following but the aversion to enjoyment done in the name of balance will bring an end to that in time. People liked it on release, you all had 3 days to properly test it so there's little excuse. Even if it was better than devs expected the community reaction should have convinced that it's fine. There's the excuse of not allowing future good items if the past ones stay as they are. *Snips the attitude. See pm's.* ~Anim


No one is against fun. It's unfortunate that the bug made it to release, our apologies if this had a negative impact on your playing experience. That said, we're always willing to accept constructive feedback. Not the attitude though. (See pm's.). ~Anim

< Message edited by AnimalKing -- 5/2/2023 16:01:24 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 27
5/2/2023 16:05:33   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 As was explained in the prior page: The reason the Reckoning skill was doing double damage was because it had leftover code from the NPC skill. Its damage was calculated as if it was split between two hits, and since it dealt two hits, it was dealing double damage. Contrary to whatever peculiarly persistent misinformation may be spreading, we have set values for what a given cost in resources produces in terms of balance. This is done by setting a central unit as the value of a standard melee attack, with the value of any given action or amount of resources relative to this "100% melee" value being the core measure of balance.

I would submit for consideration that one answer makes sense between catching a simple copy-paste error within 24 hours (Per player requests that we be more timely with such fixes) and the very elaborate series of events that would require us to:
-Suddenly break years of development structure
-Intentionally make a skill that completely abandons everything we have explained about balance to produce double the damage of what any spell paying the cost of Reckoning would
-Somehow test an item for three days before it was even completed.
-Decide after three days of testing something that broke all rules that it should perhaps follow the rules.

I will make suggestions to improve testing procedures based on player feedback, but please follow the rules about constructive posting.
Post #: 28
5/2/2023 17:39:00   
Aura Knight
Banned
quote:

-Somehow test an item for three days before it was even completed.


So it wasn't properly tested due to time issues?

quote:

it was dealing double damage.


You're aware of the cost right? How's double damage an issue when the bloodzerker series does this for cheaper? Sure it's probably wep based but it's fine to have.

I just cannot understand how you justify making things less fun in the name of protecting a balance standard you yourself made. Your words claim otherwise but what I see is the opposite. Balance is not synonymous with weakening which is what really happens. I think sometimes it's better to leave things as they were. If players like it, let it go.

Was a great armor now bit above average.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 29
5/2/2023 18:10:03   
Corvid
Member

Aura knight, I’d encourage you to research what the balance standards are, why they exist, and the basic game mechanics. This should clarify some of your confusions. It must be frustrating to have an item be bugged on release and then subsequently fixed. Just trust that devs have the player’s interest at heart, even if it seems confusing at times.
AQ  Post #: 30
5/2/2023 18:14:24   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 
quote:

So it wasn't properly tested due to time issues?


I implied no such thing. The quoted statement was a refutation of the unsourced assertion that the item was in testing for three days. The item had not even been finished at this point, so the notion is inapplicable. For all other points, please refer to the above linked explanation of what balance means and the warning to follow the rules.
Post #: 31
5/3/2023 0:21:05   
Aura Knight
Banned
quote:

I’d encourage you to research what the balance standards are, why they exist, and the basic game mechanics.


I recognize the encouragement. Thank you. Regrettably I must decline the offer for it would negate the fun of playing for me. I prefer the simplicity of click button, see number. The theory of why said number must be or not be what it was takes away from the fun of gaming. It's not for everyone. A big concern from the perspective of a more casual player is others go too far with the debates or are fixated on forcing weakness masked as balance.

If people like something, might be fine to leave it as is.

quote:

I implied no such thing. The quoted statement was a refutation of the unsourced assertion that the item was in testing for three days.


I thought you mocked the absurdity of three days to test. How about testing after completion? You would think faulty product is an issue. The trouble here is the armor was well liked so why not leave it? It's ok for rewards at a finale to be better than other kinds.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 32
5/3/2023 3:16:29   
  Ianthe
 formerly In Media Res

 

 Update: the quest now lets you jump to the challenge battle once you've finished the quest once. You'll have to play through the quest once more to unlock this option. Also I got the checkpoints working, for sure this time!
quote:

The trouble here is the armor was well liked so why not leave it? It's ok for rewards at a finale to be better than other kinds.
Cray's covered this before as part of the whole "balance standards" thing: if we release a deliberately overpowered armour then the next time we release a Wind armour we'll also have to make it deliberately overpowered too or else what's the point? And then we have to do the same for all other armour elements, and then we have to update monsters so that they're not too easy, and then we'll have to release over-overpowered equipment, etc. etc. It's a vicious cycle we want to avoid.
AQ  Post #: 33
5/3/2023 8:05:23   
Aura Knight
Banned
quote:

if we release a deliberately overpowered armour then the next time we release a Wind armour we'll also have to make it deliberately overpowered too or else what's the point?


I'd say this is design fault. Set a better standard and make future rewards follow it. The fear of adding strong items using the excuse of inability to add more later is a pretty weak talking point. Not every new reward has to outdo the previous.

Forget avoiding the cycle, y'all seem scared if we get options. Variety will only help.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 34
5/3/2023 8:25:35   
Primate Murder
Member

If we're suggesting some changes to the reward armor, here's my idea:

- Keep skill one an elelock toggle, but instead of paying sp and inflicting cold, it takes -25% damage penalty to gain a charge (for skill 3).

- Keep skill two a weapon-based one, but with a damage penalty to inflict The Cold.

- Remove The Cold trigger from skill 3.

That way the two skills do not directly compete with each other, and the monster probably won't die from the charge-gathering skill alone. The second skill can be useful for reducing monster's MRM (for the low bth skill 3), but it is not a necessity.


@ Ianthe

Thanks!

AQ DF  Post #: 35
5/3/2023 9:27:13   
Aura Knight
Banned


 I'll add this idea too.

Make cold a toggle. You deal reduced damage if the option is active.

Skill 3 power comes from consuming the cold. So, a cold eater. Berserk effect moved to skill 2.

Lose the wind imbue.

Skill 2 remains as is with added berserk.

edit: clarification on the making it a toggle. skill is free with damage penalty. think matchmaker with its control effect

< Message edited by Aura Knight -- 5/3/2023 9:32:00 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 36
5/3/2023 10:10:21   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 If you would like to present suggestions for what might constitute a better standard, we are open to constructive criticism. That would, however, require no longer willingly rejecting the information on what the definitions at play are. To make a point, be presented with refuting evidence, and refuse to engage with it in order to continue doubling down makes it impossible to produce constructive criticism. If you would like to take the time to read about the topic, we'd be happy to take your feedback. Until then, given the repeated requests to follow the rules, this is now a matter for moderation.
Post #: 37
5/3/2023 10:25:58   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Well I broke no rules here. Having opinions and expressing thoughts on an open forum is perfectly fine. My annoyed tone aside, you cannot use some technicality to silence the validity of my complaints while being "open" to "criticism" from people who only praise your reasoning. That's not how proper discussion happens. You're abandoning reason in attempting this. And no, this isn't some sad attempt to troll. I'm legitimately annoyed at the decision. Don't flaunt your power over me while I have none to counter with.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 38
5/3/2023 11:38:08   
Sapphire
Banned


 @Aura



You might find the game more fun by 1 click winning, but others find that boring. In fact, I would venture a guess that if monsters were too easy, this game would lose more players than it keep them because of the sheer ease in which the game becomes. I would also say that in some ways, it's kind of already there, tbh.

If an item gets released that so blatantly OP compared to previous items, as Ianthe said, it begins a vicious cycle.


Anyway, if this wind armor is leagues above all other wind armors, it makes all other existing armors obsolete. It also means staff has to make something just as good to make it compete with this one. Power creep then doesn't just inch upwards, it leaps forwards by quite a bit. Then what about the other elements? If fire armors, or darkness armors, or whatever cannot reasonably compare to the best wind armor, then the subsequent releases are then disappointing to the players unless that power is matched. As Ianthe said, again, the vicious cycle begins and it's actually more work on staff. All 2 coders.


I think it would benefit players who continue to focus on the their own frustration with this release and take a step back and try and take a 40,000 foot view of it all. A better perspective might be in order. And this is coming from someone that isn't even all that gung ho about this game's mathematical balance. I don't mind a little hand waviness here and there, but 2x power is , IMO, a common sense fix.


Post #: 39
5/3/2023 11:51:29   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Simplicity surely can't be a factor in player loss. Unwanted change is. There's little incentive for variety when we have clearly defined metas. Innovation needs more freedom with the options we're given. The fixation on balance is hurting the game. Relaxing on that a bit will be good. Fun must come first.

quote:

If an item gets released that so blatantly OP compared to previous items, as Ianthe said, it begins a vicious cycle.


Dunno how to prevent this. It's something which kills the past items. The later attempts to bring them up to par will cycle things back to the point where the previous issue persists.

I truly think there needs to be a re-evaluation of how much to balance things. AQ is in no way competitive so there's no need to set standards as if it were.

I do also believe I overexaggerated the hate for the armor. Tried it again last night and while not as happy as day 1, it still has good parts. Wish skills were cheaper and damage higher still but fine for another wind option.

edit: so I been thinking what to use to make the cold stacking better. the mirror ryussei guest comes to mind. cold benefit could be better if guest damage was boosted too. will there be a time we see LS for a guest or that an impossible thing? anyway im starting to like a more offensive evasion strategy but the bth penalty feels slow too.

< Message edited by Aura Knight -- 5/3/2023 14:19:26 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 40
5/3/2023 17:44:21   
Jakau Ryuu
Member

I dunno, I'd consider having a variety of approximately competitive pieces of equipment a lot more fun than "this is the only [x] you should be using because it's miles ahead of everything else due to a mistake the devs aren't "allowed" to fix". And heck, as someone who comes and goes a lot, the ongoing powercreep in this game already looks pretty bad from here given how hard it always is to "modernize" my gear layout on my characters; let's maybe not try to actively make it worse. <.<;

Also, you're picking fights with devs and mods well after they've asked you to drop it, most other forums I've frequented that'd've netted you a suspension by now. And no, that's not "flaunting power", it's enforcing the forum rules you agreed to when you signed up. They're not asking you to blindly praise everything, just keep some perspective and try to be constructive rather than attacking them and making accusations of being "anti-fun" or "abandoning reason".
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 41
5/3/2023 18:08:30   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Rules require me to be nice. I've said nothing with intent to offend. Not going to sugarcoat my thoughts either. Silence can't be forced while also encouraging constructive criticism. What's wrong with me thinking they made a bad decision? If disagreements end in punishments the forum should cease to exist. Nobody gets to push aside negative reviews to protect feelings.

None of what I've said comes anywhere near the realm of offensive. I do however need to admit the off topic nature of my commentary. This is for the release not my personal disapproval of how certain things happen. Said what I needed, I'll accept whatever results from it.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 42
5/3/2023 18:53:56   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 That's quite enough. Please stop doubling down on a strawman argument and let the thread move on going forward. To everyone else, we appreciate the support, but there's no need to reply to rule breaking posts. Let's keep the rules for constructive criticism in mind as we return to discussing the release proper.
Post #: 43
5/3/2023 19:10:57   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Fine. Other than my posted complaints, the release was fun. Always nice to be put in strong armor and rush through mobs. Would like to see more like this. The attempted uniqueness with the reward I can appreciate. The Cold is not a commonly seen status but can be a powerful one if done right.

There any hope for celerity to be added to the armor to get 2x the cold effect? It would give -18 bth total rather than -9 but guess outside sources can be used for this. Dodge builds are more defensive but a reworked cold status could see this flipped.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 44
5/3/2023 21:01:21   
Corvid
Member

One of the most exciting parts of this release is the major cliffhanger and foreshadowing at the end. Seems like we might be getting new monster types and major new plot directions this year
AQ  Post #: 45
5/8/2023 15:59:55   
battlesiege15
Member

What does "... Overwhelm him" mean for the boss fight? Does that mean hit the damage cap for the turn?

Also, beat the boss after a few tries. Was hoping the Challenge battle would
spoiler:

have more than just a title. Still, a cool title and battle though. I have yet to figure out the battle mechanism for Entropy though because it kept using the Harm attack randomly and destroying my HP. Also, I like that we have max MP in the Entropy temporary armor but have 0 spells to use lol.
Also, any chance we can get a form armor of the boss because the art style is magnifique!
AQ AQW  Post #: 46
5/8/2023 16:14:28   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@battlesiege15: It refers to hitting the boss 6 or more times in the same turn
AQ  Post #: 47
5/8/2023 23:25:27   
Corvid
Member

@battlesiege
An entropy form as another token package/armor compression weapon would be a blast.
AQ  Post #: 48
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