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Lean and Build imbalances along with related concerns

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11/7/2023 2:10:46   

1.) Monsters deal 40% more damage than a normal attack from the player yet FO lean doesn't account for this in anyway and this problem is even worse for mages. Can armors on the current lean system get something to account for this on normal attacks? Maybe FO armors can have their leans damage intake clawed back or if it isn't too much trouble damage increased.

2.) For mages maybe normal attacks can get 4/3 or more since they also cast spells that are usually unaffected by lean and mage normal attacks deal 25% less damage. This normalization should be excluded on skills like poelala does with skills.

Also I'm not sure how these may, should or could affect gameplay and balance as that's very important that can be discussed here too. For example this can have a lot of implications on how elecomp and other parts of the game work.

EDIT: I'm going to be updating this post with more ideas to fit the new broader title.

3.) FD currently as a lean is overpowered by at least 28% melee, has 100 proc weapons that synergize with FD to get 20% more melee for free and these need to be nerfed until they are closer to balanced. This problem only gets much worse with my next point. FD is powerful but it is typically only a tool used for Beasts which may be even more powerful.

4.) Beasts are currently overpowered, their boosts underpay by a massive amount due to them using formulas that are getting swept while also dealing way too much damage when boosted. Guests get at least 30% melee for free while boosted pets and guests can boost their damage by another 30% or even 50% in some cases without outside items. This trend of broken items synergizes with FD so well that they need little resource regeneration and they get more than 100% bonus melee at very little cost. This pushed damage/status weapons out of regular use in many beastmaster inventories for more beastmaster themed items, charge items and passive items. Rangers need to be given more options than 100 procs, guests etc. since people have always wanted it and when the items were good people used them and even switched builds but FO ranger is one of the most under represented builds.

I acknowledge that Beasts and CHA are being worked on but I feel the need to highlight it. Some things I can't really touch on with my limited knowledge: CHA weapons need to be removed or reworked to use ferocious/CHA lucky strikes and CHA skills should probably be clawed back in power somewhat using a new formula.

5.) Warriors should have their items and toggles differentiated more. They should an extra 5% melee in power to play with in flavor effects,not for free but let warrior items give up 25% melee instead of 20% melee for flavor effects for example a weapon that sacrifices -20% melee in MRM and the MC for +20% damage and a trigger for example. They can also have weapon effects that aren't widely available on other weapons like elevuln, berserk, reverse berserk, chi shield etc. Maybe something similar can be done for rangers, rogues and archers. Ranged weapons and 100 procs can perhaps get items more fit for getting around monster mechanics like choke, damage reduction, healing, status cleansing, SP/MP drain or 3 or 4 hit normal attacks.

6. N/Neutral is treated like it should not get anything but I think it should get decreased damage taken and increased damage dealt by 7.5%(just a placeholder number) each or something else so it can better use its own synergistic items and have a chance at using other leans items when it needs to feel versatile. It should feel more more useable from the beginning of the game to the endgame; not something that immediately makes the item feel like it doesn't belong in an optimal setup. I don't see many neutral armors being made but the current ones can at least be improved a little and so can 20 procs. Since this 100 proc update I believe FD has been further cemented as OP and Neutral as useless so Neutral deserves a lot more than having what appears to me as FD having N damage and worse than FD in damage taken.

It may be what is used to measure other items but it shouldn't be made (un)intentionally weaker than other armor types, it should have its purpose.

< Message edited by kreem -- 11/7/2023 8:10:10 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 1
11/7/2023 17:36:22   

This mechanic harks back to when Armour leans were first conceived. Essentially, it boils down to a simple assumption - how much of Player damage is assumed to be affected by the lean.

In the player turn formula, both monster and player turns are worth 140% Melee. Since armour lean is applied to all incoming damage, this means all of the monster's 140% Melee is affected. For the player though, it's divided into three components:
1). Player Damage (Weapon Attacks + spells if you're a mage) = 100%
2). SP = 20%
3). Pets = 20%
The multiplier to outgoing damage is going to vary depending on which of these components you assume to be affected. Current values work under the assumption all of the above are affected (1:1 ratio e.g., x1.25 for x1.25 as in FO). However, you could assume either one or both of the other components aren't affected. After all, most pet damage is unaffected by armour lean (aside from pets that affect player damage like Poelala/Dunamis/Thernda and Lust/Envy). SP can also be spent in a myriad of ways - Guests aren't affected, but damage boosts from miscs will. It's not at all simple.

Calculating for FO, FD, and Spellcaster depending on whether one or both of the components are factored out (sorry Neutral):

One component:
FO Melee/Ranged: 1 + (0.25 * 1.2) = *1.3
FO Magic: 1 + (0.25 * (1 + (0.2 * 4/3))) = *1.317
FD Melee/Ranged: 1 - (0.25 * 1.2) = *0.7
FD Magic: 1 - (0.25 * (1 + (0.2 * 4/3))) = *0.683
Spell: 1 + (0.375 * 1.2) = *1.45

Both components:
FO Melee/Ranged: 1 + (0.25 * 1.4) = *1.35
FO Magic: 1 + (0.25 * (1 + (0.4 * 4/3))) = *1.383
FD Melee/Ranged: 1 - (0.25 * 1.4) = *0.65
FD Magic: 1 - (0.25 * (1 + (0.4 * 4/3))) = *0.617
Spell: 1 + (0.375 * 1.4) = *1.525

The above are attack damage multipliers. the nerf to FD goes hand in hand with the buff to FO (since you trade one resource for the other).

From my subjective standpoint - technically this is a fix. However, it's not something I would prioritise as FD needs efficiency incentives and FO/Spellcaster already have enough damage output.

Other stuff:
  • Guests are being tackled as part of the stat revamp
  • Yes, Pet/Guest boosters are ridiculous and need tackling. That's a massive undertaking though, several GBis on its own
  • From discussions on Discord: CHA weapons are discontinued, so to speak
  • Neutral is a problem. As you saw above, I can't exactly modify a value to account for the additional damage you deal and take... when you don't deal or take anything different from the norm. It's all relative.

    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 11/7/2023 17:40:26 >
  • AQ  Post #: 2
    11/8/2023 4:22:25   

    One idea to fix armour lean is to consider strength build view.

    Strength build
    Assumption for pure strength build (neutral armour lean and offensive armour lean)
    250 STR, 250 LUCK, 250 END, 0 DEX, 0 INT and 0 CHA.

    Assumption for strength beast master build (defensive armour lean)
    250 STR, 250 LUCK, 250 CHA, 0 DEX, 0 INT and 0 END.

    Character damage output - defensive armour
    [melee attack] * [lean] + [pet attack] + [sp generation]
    = 0.8 * 0.8 + 0.4 + 0.2
    = 1.24 melee unit

    Call this result A.

    Character damage output - neutral armour
    [melee attack] * [lean] + [pet attack] + [sp generation]
    = 1 * 1 + 0.2 + 0.2
    = 1.4 melee unit

    Call this result B.

    Character damage output - offensive armour
    [melee attack] * [lean] + [pet attack] + [sp generation]
    = 1 * 1.25 + 0.2 + 0.2
    = 1.65 melee unit

    Call this result C.

    Character damage taken from monster - defensive armour
    = 1 - [1 - [A / B]] * [penalty]
    = 1 - [1 - [1.24 / 1.4]] * [19 / 20]
    = 0.8914 unit (correct to 4 decimal points)

    Character damage taken from monster - neutral armour
    = 1 unit

    Character damage taken from monster - offensive armour
    = 1 + [[C / B] - 1] * [penalty]
    = 1 + [[1.65 / 1.4] - 1] * [20 / 19]
    = 1.1880 unit (correct to 4 decimal points)

    < Message edited by ruleandrew -- 11/8/2023 6:19:24 >
    AQ  Post #: 3
    11/8/2023 11:21:34   


    I acknowledge that Beasts and CHA are being worked on but I feel the need to highlight it. Some things I can't really touch on with my limited knowledge: CHA weapons need to be removed or reworked to use ferocious/CHA lucky strikes and CHA skills should probably be clawed back in power somewhat using a new formula.

    I think that CHA weapons should move forward in item creation, but there needs to be a new standard that applies to everything that Replaces normalized stats. This idea that you just stop making CHA weapons or delete the idea altogether etc etc etc is the absolute worst thing to do. You essentially leave an existing problem alone , not address it, but then move forward as of those items never existed. Instead, you move forward with the design space but you implement better balance standards to keep it in check.

    This should apply to anything and everything. Weapons, skills, armors, spells, etc etc etc etc. It should apply to CHA, END, LUCK, and even if there's some sort of mainstat to mainstat replacement idea (not sure there's a case usage here, just saying)

    The idea here is the base power gets a 10, 15, 20% power hit (whatever is deemed necessary) right off the top anytime CHA/END/LUK replaces a mainstat in any part of the normal equation, whether it's damage stats, lucky strikes (like with ferocious trikes), and even perhaps if Luk is replaced with something else in the minor roll (like psycho fiend weapon)

    In addition, you replace the Dex part of the old CHA weapon BTH formula with "highest of mainstat" just like the plan with pets.

    This change ensures by replacing mainstat with a secondary, it will *never* be optimal. In addition to gaining a flat redutuon to power for mainstat replacement, the BTH formula also further reduces damage for 0 mainstat players. These players will take a massive hit to weapon damage and be forced to rely almost exc;lusively on pets and guests. That should be the penalty/trade off. The result is if a player wants to try and use a secondary a main, then fine, but you wont come close to do the same damage as a mainstat in terms of player damage, and your pet will also take a BTH hit. Its doable, but you're going to be climbing an uphill battle. It's no different than other situations. These 0 main stat players are sacrificing damage and BTH for defense, in most all situations. It's End > mainstat in their build decision. This, IMO, is the best and most sensible path forward.

    Also, I think luck needs decoupled from base assumptions for damage, accuracy, and blocking. The damage loss from lucky strikes should be rolled back into mainstat to keep the damage model the same, then move the 5 bth to main stats and remove the blocking help completely (adjust monster bth down by 5 to offset this.) Then what you have is 3 secondaries that serve their own roll individually and separate from mainstat. I would also double the rate of base lucky strikes , but cut the damage in half. So you get 20% rate at half lucky strike damage. Then lucky strikes is less powerful in terms of damage output in single applications, but goes unchanged over time. Then give Guests luck-based lucky strikes, reduce base rate and hypercrit increase items by half (offsetting the change) and leave +lucky strike damage items 100% alone. (nerf to lucky strike damage) But lucky strikes will then be in addition to damage models and not included within it, carving out a role for luck a bit better. Dont give luck accuracy and blocking bonuses. Give luck actual luck based style bonuses. I would also reconfigure initiative to re-ignite luck's prowess on initiative. Maybe halving the power of the 3 mainstats each, and rolling that amount back into luck. Luck should not be assisting as little as it does currently. Makes absolutely zero sense.

    As for the lean issue, if it can be addressed globally then cool, make some changes. But if not, it's an impossible issue to address. I think the MUCH greater issue is the mistake that was made to make bows do 100% melee. Killing off the neutral lean and the weapon special reduced variety and it , IMO, has only served to push min-maxing with the players. I want to see it revitalized and given item support. (armors and miscs, and weapons with bonuses to weapon special damage) I actually think bows need to be 90% melee and the FD warrior lean should also be 90% melee. I also think SP upkeep guests should be treated differently than MP upkeep guests. It's the only way to truly come up with balance for guests. Lucky Beast mage vs Full defensive Beast Ranger vs Beast Warrior should, in theory, be equal in damage over 20 turns just like non beast builds are balanced. yet, they're not, with FDBR outclassing them all by a lot. Makes no sense.

    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 11/8/2023 11:40:40 >
    Post #: 4
    2/16/2024 8:17:17   

    I want to fix armour lean and build imbalance problem while making the game more fun.

    Planned character damage taken from monster - defensive armour
    = 0.84 unit

    Planned character damage taken from monster - neutral armour
    = 1 unit

    Planned character damage taken from monster - offensive armour
    = 1 / 0.84
    = 1.1905 (correct to 4 decimal points)

    Planned character damage output for 100 % special weapons and warrior lean mode
    = 0.9 melee unit

    I want to boost offensive armour performance while reducing defensive armour performance on the merit defensive armour is a bit overpower.
    100 % special weapons should really deal 0.9 melee unit since 20 % special weapons do not have sigificiant design space.
    AQ  Post #: 5
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