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3/19/2024 11:18:30   
  Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist


Guests have been adjusted to baseline 30% Upkeep for 45% Output. Style Bonus for CHA goes into 5% melee and 20% to Ferocious(ly) Strike for 2x damage. This now enables non-CHA Guests to exist according to Standards.

Dunamis and Friends are currently influenced by both Mainstat and CHA. Due to their Omni-Elemental nature, they take a 0.6 penalty.

Currently
0.6 x 45 = 27
Formula was therefore adjusted to
13.5 + 13.5* 0.5 * (YourSTR/ExpSTR) + 0.5 * (YourCHA/ExpCHA)))
Therefore, for a Pure Build at 250 STR, the damage boost is 20.7%
Dunamis & Friends take a sufficiently large enough penalty that it almost never gets 1:1 parity as a Skill would. Perhaps removing the CHA requirement might be good for these Guests. This would bring their baseline modifier up to +27% melee, and only in an FO armour do these Guest gain parity. At +27% this value is still weaker than pre-Revamp Dunamis (+31.5% melee)

For Elemental Boosters
22.5 + 22.5 * (0.75*[MainStat/ExpMainStat] + 0.25*[CHA/ExpCHA])]
At 250 STR, the damage boost is 39.375%
Elemental Boosters are a difficult thing to deal with.
Removing the CHA requirement and allowing them to scale entirely on Mainstat brings them to +45% to a particular element which is potentially problematic in itself.
Retaining the CHA requirement presents a conundrum. Boosters should have a consistent stat requirement. However, Elemental Boosters are large enough modifiers that we should hesitate to remove the CHA requirement

I would propose the following: Elemental Boosters to retain their CHA requirement, thus keeping their relative power slightly lower at Mainstat only. However, allow CHA's 5% melee Style Bonus to apply to Elemental Boosters.

Therefore at 250 Mainstat / CHA, Elemental Boosters receive +50% melee to that element. This would strike a balance between a player looking to maximize all out damage from the Player character, while providing a viable alternative to Beastmaster characters.

TLDR:
Buff Dunamis, Thernda & Poelala so that they all reach baseline +27% melee, scaling with Mainstat only
Buff Elemental Boosters conditionally by allowing the +5% Melee Style Bonus to apply so that they are competitive with 'Generic' Guests.

Edit: Formula corrections. I was pulling them from the Pedia entries.

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 3/19/2024 19:44:59 >
AQ  Post #: 1
3/19/2024 11:50:49   
LUPUL LUNATIC
Member
 

quote:

Therefore at 250 Mainstat / CHA, Elemental Boosters receive +50% melee to that element. This would strike a balance between a player looking to maximize all out damage from the Player character, while providing a viable alternative to Beastmaster characters.


I want to say this already applies, i get 51.5% boost with 250 Mainstat/CHA and caps at 56.6% boost so that is 50% melee x1.1 (over the cap floor) and x1.03 (outlevel formula)

quote:

TLDR:
Buff Dunamis, Thernda & Poelala so that they all reach baseline +27% melee, scaling with Mainstat only


Right now i get a 20.8% boost from Dunamis (only with 250 STR), i do agree that they should just use Mainstat and reach that 27% boost.
AQ  Post #: 2
3/19/2024 12:30:19   
CH4OT1C!
Member

I think it's important to note that this GBI reflects a logical extension of one I recently posted. I won't repeat the details here for brevity, but the upshot is we need to make a decision around whether Guests should be treated fully as skills (the domain of every stat) following their treatment in the stat update, or as the CHA version of skills (and thus regular skills shouldn't be able to scale on CHA for fairness). I raise this because the outcome of that GBI has very important implications for the decisions made in this post.

Assuming that Guests are treated as being able to scale on any stat, then I agree with the solutions you propose here @Ward_Point. There's no reason to deliberately have these Guests hybrid scale, and having the elemental Guests scale on CHA helps to curb their power.
AQ  Post #: 3
3/19/2024 12:57:53   
Sapphire
Member

I have a mixed approach to this.

First, I agree with the mainstat scaling-only approach. The Guest slot, which is supposed to be reserved for CHA, is used to boost player damage. I therefore view booster guests as a stat replacement for CHA, so it should scale only on main stat.

I think this should pertain to elemental boosters as well.


But this echoes where I stand with anything that replaces an item that normally gets a specific stat and is replaced with a non standard stat. It should take a penalty. They can make spells that do END stats, guests that do DEX stats, spells that do CHA stats..etc etc etc just take a penalty so that it cant ever be better than the normal standard item on paper. This penalty should be 10%, so .9.
fro
I also don't think that any damage boosters should receive the 5% style bonus because the style bonus was meant for direct damage from guests. Its the same reasoning that Ianthe just edited and mentioned in the FS thread that a booster guest is a booster guest, so they're not dealing direct damage and therefore, they can't FS..here, they can't get the FS and the +5%. Player damage is far far far too easy to boost.

Now, one area for Dunamis/Poelala/Thernda that I know will get some negative feedback from some is that I don't think the Omni penalty is appropriate. Omni penalty should only be applied when a single item can access every element by itself, a la UDSoTE. There has been some debate on things like omni elevuln and omni eleempower which get .9 instead of .6.
.9 is more appropriate for those because they don't access the elements by themselves, they enhance them. So they're always useful.

Warning, Tangent below
However, I think ultimately there's a 3rd standard not in existence that's missing that would rectify the issue. There should be an A.) Omni penalty (.6, and only represents a single item that by itself without no partnership, can access all elements), then B.) Always useful (this is self explanatory) but the new one should be C.) Universal Boost/Access--> .75 that sits between the two and that's when an item allows another item to access all or multiple elements, universally boosting everything. So for example, omni elevuln or eleempower still require a weapon/spell/armor to enhance it, so those get .75. The Psycho candy spell still requires a weapon to follow, it gets .75. etc. This would remove the confusion with what gets always useful and what gets omni because many always useful would actually now be getting the new .75 Universal Boost/Access standard. Universal boosters and damage miscs, etc would all get this. But all that's for another day.

END TANGENT, although somewhat included below

But when the item can partner itself with another item to assist in every element, then to me it's more or less "always useful" because it can't access multiple elements all by itself. So I think Poelala/Thernda/Dunamis should start at 45%, not get the +5% bonus, but then get a .9 penalty for always useful, and another .9 penalty for scaling with mainstat. (stat replacement) The end result for those is +36.45. (Although I did state I think there is a missing applicable, not yet used .75 Universal penalty for enhancing all damage of a type (different than omni elemental, which would exist for single items that access all elements by itself) and that would drop those to +30.3%)


For elemental specific boosters, they also shouldn't get the +5% because they don't deal direct damage, the same reasoning as FS, and they should also scale with only mainstat. The result is a single .9 penalty for scaling with mainstat so they're at 40.5%.

I know the disparity between the general and the elemental specific would be closer, and I have included a new balance standard that doesn't exist with the stat replacement penalty. So I get some might see my reply as a huge waste of time, but I truly think it's the best route to go because I think it provides better consistency when applied to everything similar. (Stat replacement penalty, boosters not getting any style bonus, new .75 penalty for universal damage boosting ideas)

If I were to shortcut and trim the post, TLDR, I would just say none of the boosters gets *any* style bonus because they don't deal direct damage, but I agree they should scale with main stat. (I just think there's a bigger picture with non existent penalties that should be created)

Post #: 4
3/19/2024 13:02:12   
CarrionSpike
Member

quote:

Buff Boosters conditionally by allowing the +5% Melee Style Bonus to apply so that they are competitive with 'Generic' Guests.

As @LUPUL LUNATIC points out, this should already be the case. At 250 INT/CHA my Poelala guest is giving +41.2% damage to Magic normal attacks. This is 41.2*0.75/outleveling penalty/0.6 = 50% melee.

quote:

(YourSTR/ExpSTR) + 0.25 * (YourCHA/ExpCHA)))

Also, unless this is a typo, this should be: (0.5 * (YourSTR/ExpSTR) + 0.5 * (YourCHA/ExpCHA)), Dunamis/Poelala/Thernda were changed to scale 50/50 with MainStat/CHA a while back.


As for changing how Booster Guests scale, I think that they're in more than an OK spot at the moment. They provide a meaningful damage bonus with relatively reasonable restrictions (can't Ferocious Strike, and require some amount of CHA investment for full power). If anything we need to be careful with any changes to Booster Guests as to neither make them obsolete or have them overshadow other options.
Post #: 5
3/19/2024 13:19:34   
Andlu
Member

You are expected to carry a weapon of every single one of the 8 elements, so the omni-elemental penalty on the boosters make sense, or else you'd also be powercreeping them too much, they'd be way way too close to what elemental boosters are, but with basically no need to have ALL 8 versions avaliable
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 6
3/19/2024 20:07:43   
  Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist


Then I'm definitely running on outdated formulas. Based on the feedback before me, it looks like the 5% Style Bonus of CHA is already in place for Boosters.

As such, I would suggest that they be adjusted to comply to full Mainstat scaling, but retain the 5% melee Style Bonus obtained by 250 CHA.

Effectively, the numbers would remain similar, but resulting in a net buff to 0 CHA Players and no change to 250 CHA Players
For Omni-Elemental Boosters
(+27% via Mainstat (Subject to 1.1x cap due to Mainstat vs ExpStat) + up to 5% melee CHA style bonus ) x MC (1.05) x Outlevel (1.03)
Boiled down
[13.5 + 13.5 * (Mainstat/ExpStat)] + CHA Style Bonus] * 1.03 * 1.05

For Elemental Boosters
[22.5 + 22.5 * (Mainstat/ExpStat)] + CHA Style Bonus] x 1.03 * 1.05

EDIT: I forgot the Mastercraft. Non-Typical Stat for a Guest should no longer be a thing. Everything should be boosted by a further 5%.

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 3/20/2024 22:59:35 >
AQ  Post #: 7
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