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Celerity standard

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11/17/2024 21:23:29   
Grace Xisthrith
Member
 

 Could've sworn there was already a GBI about this, but I can't find it. Perhaps it was deleted, or perhaps I misremembered, or perhaps it was in the QA section.

In short, I'm here to quickly question staff about the standards for celerity.

Tribal shaman, Warwolf misc, and Pumpkin spice weapons use a different celerity standard than Reign Armor and Pet, Trickster, and other items. Namely, the first three take a x.85 to their cost, while the others do not. I'm listing modern items, which I believe were all released after the Pumpkin Spice weapons (perhaps not trickster?), since that was the first time I noticed the standard, or perhaps Tribal Shaman, either way, I don't remember.

I read a strong argument for the celerity status to not take a x.85 multiplier to cost, unfortunately I can't find it, and I don't want to restate it incorrectly. Either way, I'm hoping to ask staff their plan for the celerity standard, now that we've again received celerity items on a different standard from other very modern items. Should celerity items take a .85x multiplier to their cost, and be cheaper, or not?

I appreciate any response staff have time for, thanks for reading :)
AQ  Post #: 1
11/18/2024 7:35:12   
CH4OT1C!
Member

The logic underlying the argument is the same as the one for inaction statuses like Daze/Paralysis.

The turn model should inherently takes the assumed 85% hitrate into account. The player action is worth 100% melee, not the damage itself. Assuming that accuracy applies outside of the model creates a number of complications. For example, the 20-turn model would in reality by the 20/0.85 = 23.53 Turn model. While this doesn't directly affect base HP, it messes with the things like the once-per-battle bonuses. Due to misses, you'd be spending an extra 1.76 turns in each battle while their bonuses only assume a 10-turn average. It means that 349 HP/522 MP/392 SP are not worth 100% Melee, but rather 85% Melee, since you can miss (yes, that means a player attack would be worth 85% melee, a spell 170% melee, so on and so forth).

It is important to note that AQ can be balanced around the standard described above. However, it would be considerably easier just to treat the 85% hitrate as an inherent part of the model. Under those circumstances, Celerity would not receive the *0.85 multiplier to cost (valuing the action, not whether it lands). Paralysis and other inaction statuses would have that modifier removed for the same reason - the monster turn is worth 140% melee, not the damage they deal.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 11/18/2024 7:38:21 >
AQ  Post #: 2
11/18/2024 11:51:28   
Sapphire
Member

Dont think celerity getting the accuracy bonus makes any sense. Celerity isn't 'in the act' of attacking, it's just 'giving you the action' of a 2nd attack.

It's more about access than something you're currently doing.
Post #: 3
11/18/2024 19:30:53   
Legendary Ash
Member

Individual programmers may sporadically deviate in their personal designing process from what the Balance Standards have clear definitions of.
In any case it is ideal to communicate these errors in the form of a compilation GBI with thorough listing of the instances, presenting an analysis, taking a stance when given multiple standards and logic, and/or providing a unique solution.

In a past Sand Scurrier, Furious Trobble, Pig Drake GBI, we highlight multiple item designs by the two programmers that shared the lack of a necessary Hit Rate and/or Whole Field/Side modifiers.
As the forum informs the audience of the name of the author for each respective post, it necessitates that the content that is being questioned be properly addressed with attention paid as to whom its designer might be as a whole.

Exclusive perspective: Individual designs for each item are inherently independent unless they otherwise have intentional interactions exclusive to being part of a set
Inclusive perspective: Individual designs for each item are tethered to independent designers, who have personal interpretations of Balance Standards, personally determine according to their style their application and implementation.

The following is a chronological list of Armors with Celerity for comparison of their programmers and designs to the said weapon and misc with Celerity.

Pumpkin Spice require that you actually deal Fire damage with the hit in order to trigger the Celerity, to which Kam might have applied the Hit Rate modifier of .85, but is incorrect logic since it did not include a Hits connected/attempted mechanic.
Not all forms of mechanics require compensation, they may be in place as parameters/limitations to prevent it from being always useful to minimize their competitiveness in design space.

ANDrAS, the Warwolf Prime misc's entry states, "Basically this is a clone of Falcon Spirit on Tribal Shaman, but with an HP cost."
Tribal Shaman's Falcon Spirit is a Quickcast skill itself and the design is absent of a Hit Rate mechanic, both have no need for a .85.


Fiery Matchmaker
H-Series Tempest Power Armour
Infernal Champion
Knightmare Plate
Retro Nightmare Plate
Nemesis Plate
Pumpkin Spice Blade/Lance/Rune Tablet
Fallen Angel's Vindication
Trickster's Hide
Tribal Shaman
ChronoCroaker
ANDrAS Type-PC261
Warwolf Prime A/GARES Type-IWW45
Reign Plate
AQ  Post #: 4
11/19/2024 21:54:45   
Grace Xisthrith
Member
 

 Quite comprehensive, thank you
Among other things, an easy improvement for my post definitely should've mentioned initially that warwolf misc was cloned off of tribal shaman, so it shouldn't really count as a second example. I believe that makes Tribal Shaman and Pumpkin spice the only celerity sources with a .85x cost multiplier.
My initial frustration, about a year ago, with this topic was that pumpkin spice came out, which had a .85x multiplier, Trickster came out, which did not, and then Tribal Shaman came out, which did have a .85x multiplier. All of the subs were posted by a single developer, although who knows who made them, but switching the standard back and forth so quickly made it hard for me to try and understand what was going on


AQ  Post #: 5
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