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Sand Scurrier, Furious Trobble, Pig Drake and Essence of Carnage

 
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All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [AdventureQuest] >> AdventureQuest General Discussion >> Game Balance Issues >> Sand Scurrier, Furious Trobble, Pig Drake and Essence of Carnage
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8/11/2019 19:02:36   
Legendary Ash
Member

Sand Scurrier
quote:

Pet is Light, toggles between +5% damage and DefLoss.
Light pet, MC effect is a toggle, normally is +5% damage, click its head to have it pay 50% pet damage + MC (so total of 22% Melee), it will then do a 2-hit attack that attempts to inflict a Hits*2 duration -9.5 MRM DefLoss on the foe. Inflict with CHA/LUK, mob resists with END/LUK, 50% save.


Balance Equation Turns*Defloss*(Guest+Pet mod)*5*.5 save/4.25
The wrong Defloss amount in the wrong balance equation is 4*9.5*5*.5/4.25 = 22.35294% melee
The wrong Defloss amount in the corrected balanced equation is 4*9.5*5*1.4*.85*.5/4.25 = 26.6% melee
The correct Defloss amount through the correct balanced equation 22*4.25/(5*1.4*.85*.5*4) = -7.857 Defloss for 4 turns

The Guest + Pet mod should not assume Guest's 60% melee since balance standards assume pure builds, such as a 200 Dex/Cha/Luk using a Cha weapon that deals *.75 damage to move 25% melee onto the Guest's base 30% melee and pet's 40% melee for a theoretical 170% melee.
The Guest + Pet mod that Devs assume as 100% melee is from a hybrid build such as Str or Int with Cha, to get 25% melee from using Melee weapons or Spells, for a total of 195% melee.
A 200 Str or Int/Dex/Luk build deals 100% melee +20% from pet +25% from skill for a theoretical 145% melee.
As standards assume a non Cha Pure build, effects take /1.4 for global status condition balance purposes, there shouldn't be a /1.7 or /2 as Cha is not assumed to be standard.

Nerfbat/Nerfkitten/Nerfit has the same /2 problem in calculating the -60% penalty
The wrong Defloss amount in the wrong balance equation 40*.6*4.25/(.4*5*5*2*.85) = 6 Defloss per attempt
The correct Defloss penalty amount through the correct balanced equation (6*.4*5*5*1.4*.85)/(4.25*40) = -42% penalty

Cephalopod is missing the /.85 which other pets such as Lavender doll were correctly balanced with.
The wrong Blind amount in the wrong balance equation 26.4*.5*5*1.4/4.25 = 21.74 melee
The correct Blind amount in the correct balance equation 22*4.25/(5*1.4*.5*.85) = -31.42857 BtH Blind

Furious Trobble
quote:

ALSO you can click on the spell during the first ~two seconds of casting time to split the big trobble into three little trobbles. Three hits, -60% damage, and it gives you BTH Boost (+17 BTH, 2*[hits] turns)

Like the Eye of Naab, Furious Trobble suffers from BtH that only affects pet and guest that excludes the player on the first turn, the BtH is applied to the player after the spell's hits connect, which is after the player's turn.
An incorrect balance equation would be 17*6*5*1.4*.85/(4.25*2) = -71.4% penalty
Another incorrect balance equation would be 17*5*5*1.4*.85/(4.25*2) = -59.5% penalty
Extra work to correctly balance the equation, player dmg that includes skill is worth 1.2 and pet is .2 for a player side total of 1.4:
17*5*1.4*.85(5*1.2+6*.2)/(1.4*4.25*2) = -61.2% penalty

Pig Drake
quote:

Boosts your defences. Gives you +10.8375 blocking for two turns, modified by the Poelala level boost and multiplied by [Your CHA]/[Expected CHA]

Should only have half of its defence boost be scaled to Cha/ExpCha as that is the standard for balancing status conditions that consume more than half melee + MC.

Essence of Carnage
quote:

DEFIANT
Costs the listed MP/turn. You heal MP equal to [outgoing weapon damage]*[90-2X]%*[MPMult], where X is the number of hits that connected, multiplied by *(0.5 + 0.5*CHA/VStat) to a max of *1.1. This is multiplied by the Dunamis outlevelling penalty without a buffer, and damage from Magic weapons is multiplied by *4/3 to bring it in line.

Also, you store the +X, and the next time you cast a spell you spend all the X and gain +[stored boost] % damage. So if you deal 10 weapon hits and then cast a spell, then the spell gains +10% damage. This boost is saved between battles, but is lost if you switch modes.
evel	5	15	35	55	75	95	115	135	150G
									
MPCost	16	24	42	63	87	114	144	176	206
									
MPMult	3.91377	2.75328	2.11670	1.77971	1.57560	1.43705	1.36313	1.32670	1.31333

Guestmeleeworth*2*MpHealed - MpMult*.9(Neutral Armor +Melee/Ranged weapon+200 Mainstat no Luk because its a Guest)/MpUpkeep
.6(2*206 - 1.31333*.9(5.59*32+11.098*12.5))/114 = -19.2588% cost penalty
1.31333*.02(5.59*32+11.098*12.5)/(653/1.25) = 1.5969%/2% = 100-79.846% = -20.153% damage penalty
Here spell damage and cost is balanced with *.8 damage and *1.2 cost, but the other mode is imbalanced.
quote:

RAMPANT
Costs the listed SP/turn. Functions like Dunamis: You gain +27% to Melee and Ranged damage from your weapons and spells, multiplied by *(0.5 + 0.5*CHA/VStat) to a max of *1.1, modified by Dun's outlevelling formula with no buffer.

Also, you gain a Backlash-like effect. Any time you take damage from a monster attack the monster takes damage equal to (damage inflicted*0.386) as Harm damage. The monster can resist with a save at a +0 bonus (inflict with CHA/LUK, resist with CHA/LUK). This doesn't trigger on type "other" attacks or on certain special monster attacks (e.g. insta-kills).
Level	5	15	35	55	75	95	115	135	150G

SPCost	10	15	26	40	54	71	90	110	129


The 38.6% Backlash takes a *.5 due to monster damage being half of player output damage and +27% Melee/Ranged damage boost adds up to be 36.65%/63% for an MC guest equates to .581746, approximately an omni element *.6 penalty only to damage, however the Sp upkeep is 129/86 = 1.5 which is .1 more than an omni element *1.4 penalty only to cost.
Total omni penalty is 1-.581746 = .418254+1.5-1 = -.91825, unlike Dunamis/Thernda/Poelala which only have a -.4 damage penalty.

The correct Sp cost should be the standard Sp Guest upkeep if the *.6 penalty should apply only to boost and backlash like Dunamis/Thernda/Poelala, or split to have MC Guest .63*.8 damage = 50.4% melee be distributed to the Melee/Ranged boost and Backlash/.5 as monster damage is half of players' and have a *1.2 upkeep cost.
I recommend having the Backlash stay as .386 and put the rest of the points to a 50.4 - .386*.5 = 31.1% Melee/Ranged damage boost

Chiropteraxe
quote:

Melee Axe, Light and Dark versions. -3 BtH lean and 0.25 base lean, also has a 20% 2-hit special which has the same -3 BtH lean. MC effect is the special attempts to inflict a (25.62*MobRes)% stun rate Fear for <Hits> turns on the foe. 50% save, inflict with VStat/LUK, mob resists with CHA/LUK.

The wrong Fear amount in the wrong equation 2*25.62*.85*1.4*.5*82/85 = 29.41176% melee
The correct Fear amount from the correct equation 25*85/(.85*1.4*.5*82) = 43.554% /2 turns = 21.777% Fear

Cephalauncher
quote:

Ranged Water Gun, essentially a gun version of the pet, toggles between a +5% damage two hit attack, and a one hit attack that attempts to inflict Blind. [Attack deals -25% damage and attempts to inflict Blind (1 turn, -36*[monster Water res] BTH). Monster can resist with a save at a +0 bonus (inflict with DEX/LUK; resist with DEX/LUK).


The wrong Blind amount in the wrong balance equation 36*.5*5*1.4/4.25 = 29.647 melee
The correct Blind amount in the correct balance equation 30*4.25/(5*1.4*.5*.85) = -42.857 BtH Blind


< Message edited by Legendary Ash -- 10/6/2019 16:27:00 >
AQ  Post #: 1
8/11/2019 19:42:02   
sobodobo
Member

It is not 6 turns of 10% melee Poison and 10% melee EleVuln, it is one or the either per turn. I mean you have to pick a mode on the Desert Raider Armor and attack with it, you can't use both modes at once.

< Message edited by sobodobo -- 8/11/2019 19:54:01 >
AQ  Post #: 2
8/17/2019 19:58:35   
Legendary Ash
Member

Added Furious Trobble and Pig Drake to the first post, balance equations are worked out for them, and removed Desert Raider Armor from it.
AQ  Post #: 3
8/31/2019 22:27:09   
  In Media Res
 Halloween Forme


Sand Scurrier:

-x DefLoss increases your BTH from 85% to (85+x)%, and it affects your whole field, so it's worth *1.4, for 1.4*x/85 total. 50% save + four turns means:

0.22 = 1.4*x/85*0.5*4
∴ x = 6.68


Kam forgot the 1.4. 6.68*1.4 = 9.4

Nerfbat: Looking back on my notes I had a HUGE spreadsheet for quintuple-checking the Zardbie Scythe, and I just handwaved it as 5% Melee ~= -1 MRM.

The DefLoss lasts for an average of 5 turns + 40% save:

1.4*6/85*0.4*5 = 0.1976

That's of a Melee attack, so 0.1976/0.4 ~= -50% of a pet attack.

A standard MC bonus is +5% damage, which we can spread out as a cumulative +1% damage per turn (starts at +0%, ends at +10%, so +5% average). We use that here along with a bitter dash of RNG (just a bit for flavour!). Nerfbat gets two of these, so it takes an additional -5%. The entire penalty is put on the nerf attack, so double it, -10%.

-50% + -10% = -60%.

... I'm as shocked as you are :o

Ceppy: Kam's dev notes have a LOT of handwaving.

-x Blind reduces accuracy from 85% to (85-x)%, so it's worth 1.4*x/85. 50% save + 1 turn means

0.22 = 1.4*x/85*0.5*1
∴ x = 26.7


It's just 0.3 off, which is about a 0.3% chance of affecting things? I'm just calling this a rounding error.

Lavender Doll:

1.4*15/85*0.5*2 = 0.247 Melee = 0.618 Pet

That needs updating.

Furious Trobble: the BTH Boost status doesn't affect pets/guests.

Pig Drake:
quote:

Should only have half of its defence boost be scaled to Cha/ExpCha as that is the standard for balancing status conditions that consume more than half melee + MC.
I don't remember this being a thing?

Carnessence:
quote:

The 38.% Backlash takes a *.5 due to monster damage being half of player output damage
I don't remember this being a thing?
AQ  Post #: 4
9/1/2019 1:18:42   
Legendary Ash
Member

I think the /.85 for requiring a hit is a necessary component of the Blind/Defloss status calculations, a proof of this standard is in Molten Staff's info sub and your reply to my Post# 129
quote:

MC is -4.25 BTH, /0.85 because it requires a hit, /0.2 for rate, /0.5 for save. -4.25/0.85/0.2/0.5 = -50 defence, spread over 2 turns.

Oh, derp, /1.4 for affecting the whole field. Okay, it's now 3 turns of -12 BTH (3*12 ~= 50/1.4) ~IMR


Patriot Griffin's info sub is another proof of a 22% melee Blind being approximately -31.5 BtH due to /.85.
quote:

In the LTS: Patriot Griffin. Kam says:
Fire clone of the Griffin pet. That version did the old "Attempt status, if the status is up do the +5% damage attack", this one will be using the toggle bit as per usual with our modern deals. Attack1 is just +5% damage, Attack2 gives up 50% damage + MC for a -10.5*MobFireRes BtH Blind that lasts <Hits> (max 3) turns. Inflict with CHA/LUK, resist with DEX/LUK, 50% save.


Nerfpet's info sub is another proof of using /.85 in Defloss.
quote:

Attack#1 (3-hit attack): Each hit increases the "buff counter" by +1. All Nerfkitten attacks deal +(10*[Buff]/3/5/0.85)% damage and gain +(8.5*[Buff]/3/5/0.85) BTH. Maxes out at +10% damage and +8.5 BTH.

With a -10% penalty for the Buff attack it should be -42% + -10% = -52% penalty for Nerfpet's Nerf attack when /.85 is included in the equation as in the Post 1 of this thread.

The three quoted info subs instances of /.85 is why I think Defloss and Blind is supposed to include a /.85 in its calculations similar to how paralysis/immobility is balanced.

For Carnage Essence I'm sure that the spreadsheets of player damage, monster damage and player Hp would verify that standard monsters deal 151 damage at Lv 150, which is 1/20 the standard Hp of a player and that players with a Pure build deal around double their Hp as damage in Neutral lean armors, using half of a spell worth, .5(358 +11.098(200 Int/8 +200 Luk*3/80)) = 338.53375 *.85 accuracy = 287.7536875 damage.
Thus Backlash is 151/287.75 = 52.475%, approximately half of the damage dealt by players, the .386 Backlash is deceiving according to player standards, which is different from monster standards, and the result is the upkeep by the guest does not represent the values used to balance the Guest.
The *1.5 Upkeep of this Guest has still yet to be addressed by Devs, if it should be balanced similarly to other Booster guests like Dunamis/Thernda/Poelala, the equations are in Post 1 of this thread.

< Message edited by Legendary Ash -- 9/1/2019 13:46:30 >
AQ  Post #: 5
9/1/2019 11:24:45   
roobee
Member
 

quote:

Boosts your defences. Gives you +10.8375 blocking for two turns, modified by the Poelala level boost and multiplied by x(0.5 + 0.5*[Your CHA]/[Expected CHA]) to a max of 1.1.

The Pig Drake info sub has already updated the BTH boost to have only half modified by charisma
Post #: 6
9/11/2019 0:28:50   
  In Media Res
 Halloween Forme


quote:

The three quoted info subs instances of /.85 is why I think Defloss and Blind is supposed to include a /.85 in its calculations similar to how paralysis/immobility is balanced.
Ohhh, I can see it. -85 BTH should be equivalent to paralysis, and my above formula has them at 1.4 and 1.4*0.85 respectively.

Wait, how do I know that we're not overvaluing paralysis? I mean, Ael originally arrived at 1.4*0.85 by saying that the monster misses 15% of the time, so 15% of the time the paralysis is wasted. It's entirely possible that she was wrong and paralysis should be worth a whole 1.4. Sorry, give me a minute to think out loud.

Theoretically giving up all your actions should be equal to negating all incoming damage. No action to your side = no action to the other. If we're doing an attack then the attack needs to land, so you have a 15% chance of the monster getting a turn and a 85% chance of the effect. To account for your 85% hit rate, the inflicted paralysis is only worth 1.4*0.85. As an example, if the paralysis has a 50% save rate then:
15% chance of nothing (missing)
[85/2]% chance of x damage (connects) and no paralysis (saves)
[85/2]% chance of x damage (connects) and paralysis (fails) (worth -1.4*0.85 turn)

If we want it to deal 100% damage 85% of the time, then x = 1-1.4*0.85*0.5.

RIGHT! Yes, I'm good with this. Thanks for bringing it to our attention ^^ I'm not sure when I'll have the time to fix all of these, but I'll put it on my todo list.

Backlash: There's a difference between "this is the standard" and "with these assumptions, this should be the standard".

With some of the Balance Engine stuff I've put together I can just modify backlash damage by *[expected Melee attack damage] / [expected monster attack damage] with a single line of code. I could even have it calculate the former factor with PowLvl and the latter factor with MonLvl so that there's a built-in incentive to buy the proper PowLvl pet. It really depends on where us devs want this to go on the hypercorrect vs simple scale -- I'll have to ask Kam about it. But yes, thank you for bringing it to our attention again ^^
AQ  Post #: 7
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