RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (Full Version)

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Mange -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 17:49:33)

quote:

Just going to throw out there that the biggest turn off for many people I have talked to is the amount of rare equipment.

Now these were new players, friends that I had invited to play, and they didn't say it in those terms. They said that all of the stuff disappeared after about level 5. They were playing along and doing great till they reached the "G.A.P". Giant Area of Plain. Which basically started at level 5 or so and lasts till about level 23. So I went and looked into those level ranges and found something interesting, almost every weapon/mech for those levels is RARE. Which once the rare event is over means it no longer exists. So we have a huge area filled with stuff that doesn't exist. Which makes getting through that area very Plain and boring because you are forced to use the same weapons for basically forever. This caused a bunch of them to quit.


Bottom Line - Rares are bad. They create an influx into the economy that when removed causes a rapid deflation and a Depression of sorts.


Actually rares are fine, since most are seasonal they come back around anyway, sometimes with an update. They also give people something to look forward to when a holiday comes up or a special war event, and sooner or later most become outdated anyway.

The problem your talking about is that large gap in the game where nothing intresting is happening, all the mechs are lack luster and unintresting when compaired to the newer rares, this is why there needs to be an update on some of the older mechs or newer lower level mechs need put in.



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 18:11:17)

@Mange
In a fight with living things, good idea. If it is with mecha, you are cooking up a bunch of metal and eating it? Is that really that tasty?



Mange -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 18:29:00)

quote:

@Mange
In a fight with living things, good idea. If it is with mecha, you are cooking up a bunch of metal and eating it? Is that really that tasty?


..it was a joke, I wasent saying some one should eat a mech arm.



candy.man -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 18:34:57)

I think the game should move away from its current grind based gameplay. I reckon future updates should focus less on dice rolls like planet 51 and quest repetition like Yokai. Future updates should play to the games strengths strengths, such as edgy, modern storylines, combat strategy and originality. Grind based gameplay interferes with the players ability to enjoy the storyline.



EinhanderX01 -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 18:53:24)

What's currently missing is a deep and fairly serious (compared to most of AE's games) storyline with which to ensnare players.

Granted, MQ is currently at the time when Holiday coding and planning begins, but I'm speaking about in general.

Yokai didn't have the emotional impact seen since the AvP War, which, while part of the main Storyline, didn't make it feel serious and worth staying on longer. Necryptos, while serious for the most part, didn't have any emotional draw to warrant players loving it and wanting to see more of it. Both also had incomplete endings, which didn't close their chapters properly, just leaving it bland and open for interpretation. Not to mention, in Necryptos' case, the plot was so bare, you could write a 1000 different stories to explain away every character and their action on that planet; from the mysterious Saleswoman in the caravan to the lack of empathy for Mina.

Westion's End would've been serious and emotionally engaging; had there been a FEW survivors instead of practically saving both cities' citizens. But it just turned into a gag at the end, both in part to the mass-save and the convenient disappearance of the ShS Dragonoid.

The ending of the AvP War is about as close as we'd get in recent times to an emotional ending. When Lagos fell to the Arthurians, a good number of players felt sorry for the Lagos citizens. And while mostly played straight, it was decently serious without being obvious. The next closest would be the loss of Char's fellow Mer'a onboard the derelict transport vessel, due to assimilation. Some of us felt for Char; because now, she pretty much was the only one of her kind (for now, at least).



The Game -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 19:44:37)

Unfortunately, I haven't played MQ in a few months, so please forgive me if some of what I say has changed or I am misremembering. First off, I am inclined to agree with Einhander concerning the lack of depth of MQ's story-lines and consequently my disinclination to take any of the characters or the story itself seriously. Westion, as mentioned previously, had a lot of potential for an amazing story. Again, it's great and all how it ended on a happy note with everyone being saved, but it just wasn't good storytelling. I can't speak for others, but for me, everyone being safe and sound negated the purpose of the entire story because there was minimal or no effect at all; in other words, the story had no real payoff.

And not to rehash what has been said before, but the AvP struggle played out great, I thought. Unlike most other plots, this one actually established some semblance of an emotional connection. It presented both sides of the story effectively and, in the end, I wanted to choose a side because I felt that the Arthurians were fighting to serve their own ends and labeling it "justice." Unfortunately, this ability to effect an emotional response from it's players is a lost art in MQ, and I'm saddened because I believe MQ has so much untapped potential. I want to come back and play MQ again, but the lack of story-line depth and the copious number of dice rolls is rather off-putting. I would be okay with dice rolls in classes if it was accompanied by an awesome story, as was the case in AQ's Assassin class, which I thought was a masterpiece of art.



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 20:15:09)

@Mange
Rares are fine.
The amount of rares MQ has is not.
Have you read the proportions before? I believe it was Ashtari who counted; rounded, the ratio of rares to non-rares is about 2 rares to every non-rare.

I like the solution, but then I've been pushing it for much longer than I've seen you around. XD



ZamuelNow -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 21:44:53)

quote:

Back in the old days...


...we had walk ten miles in the snow to fight ShadowScythe. Uphill both ways! And our mecha were made of tin foil and paper clips! *shakes cane*

quote:

Actually rares are fine, since most are seasonal they come back around anyway, sometimes with an update.


There's more than just the seasonal ones otherwise it wouldn't be that much of a problem. Not only is story important War content missing, we also got a number of SC previews that contained weapons and mechs. Plus, there were a few non-recurring things here and there.

quote:

What's currently missing is a deep and fairly serious (compared to most of AE's games) storyline with which to ensnare players.


I don't think it's missing--it merely needs to be handled better. The biggest flaws are not doing enough to make more of the NPCs memorable and making parts of the story easier to follow if you don't already know the complete progression. I'll talk about Yokai at a later date when I've completed it (started it so I do have some impressions). We do have good content. While I'm slightly soured and have negative bias against the AvP war, the conflict with Lagos and Arthuria did have some good things in both story and gameplay. Westion has positives and negatives and my opinion on the finale has shifted slightly due to some things. That thing mainly being the Mer'a conflict and thus one of my theories being right. And one thing that constantly gets ignored--the Crystal Asteroid War. It did so much right including being the one War where we "beat" DF.


...but...

It can be hard to get to stuff. While my New Player Experience thread is a bit skewed, Mer'a conflict, Vacation on Lagos War, and Yokai are new to me due to my hiatus and I had to try to figure out a few things. A lot of content needs to be cleaned up. I think one of the biggest victims is Xaria. I know she's been taken over by the ShadowScythe but I couldn't find any cutscenes showing where she got captured. Plus, new players get it even worse since Anastasia replaces her in WB's house even if you've never got that far in the story. New players can't feel sorry for her because they won't know who she is.



Glais -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/10/2010 22:19:57)

quote:

And our mecha were made of tin foil and paper clips!

And those were the good ones!
And we had to share the rock!

As pointed out with Xaria, the walkthrough just needs to be...better, for example at first since Xaria's there, have some small quest where she gets captured in the same fashion and Anastasia(I never even knew she replaced her) comes in.




ZamuelNow -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/12/2010 2:36:32)

Generally, I praise MQ's battle system over other AE games. Being away from the game and coming back to Yokai actually centers on the reason why due to something the planet doesn't do. MQ's strength and weakness is in the enemies. I'd argue that strength is when we have to fight enemies designed like playable mechs with a full 5-6 attacks and weakness is when you have to fight the ones designed like monsters (even if they look like mecha) that only have 2-3 attacks. I haven't played DF in a while but when I did the glaring weakness in the engine wasn't the armors, which seemed fine give or take some imbalances here and there, but rather it was the dull enemies that mostly had one attack and the "strategy" just boiled down to matching the element weakness. Mecha style enemies allow MQ to have more strategic battles since the enemies have multiple options and every battle can be different. There's various ways you can counter enemies and it mostly feels "fair". Monster style enemies seem to either be very disposable and dull or they lean too hard on exceptionally strong attacks. Things like forced cooldown and weapon destruction can't be used to stop individual strategies. Granted, mecha style enemies lack the AI for actual strategies but it feels like they outright undermine MQ's main design strength.

A lot of bringing this to the forefront of my thoughts is Yokai's enemies. There's some things I like on a "cool factor" level but there's a number of frustrations. Mainly, enemies with two attacks with no cooldown with rather strong debuffs. They also have high natural accuracy (I'm fine with that since I see it in their stats and there's ways to counter it) and an obscene crit rate (feels like the computer is cheating since it's not buffed there and Luck isn't that high either).



mechquestlord -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/12/2010 3:19:44)

nerf the mecharoni mecha. that thing fights like a lvl 20 mecha at times. and try to fix the supreme-master-fought-with-a-newbatron-and-find-out-that-your-mecha-is-lvl-15-or-so glitch soon. that means a player could go to lvl 40 without anything but their first mecha. (necryptos being the exception >8( its so hard!) the sooner glitch is fixed the better!



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/12/2010 10:50:22)

@Zamuel
The Stick wielders get boosted crit; it's a silent spec.



NaturallyMaria -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 4:03:29)

I'm debating on whether or not to make a separate topic of my own about this, but I guess I'll post here for now.

I just broke level 20 on my main character, which I also just upgraded to star captain. Having access to so many more things is cool, but then I realized something else... I feel like I've already seen everything the game has to offer. It's not just about having done all the main quests. It's that there's no ongoing stories I care about, no characters I really care to follow, nothing that connects with me emotionally.

First off, the dropship was awesome. I'd have liked a bit more of a reward for completing Sys-Zero's missions there, since the exp is kind of a joke compared to what you can get on Soluna, but the experience was cool enough. I felt like I was being dropped into the middle of a war, and that I could be an important soldier if I wanted to try.

After landing in Soluna though, that feeling kind of vanished. The first thing that stood out to me, probably around level 8-10, was that GEARS University feels really, really small. It's got five stories, but no more than five people worth talking to. The mecha classes are a given (though it would be nice if I was pointed there as soon as I arrived in Soluna), and the energy blade class is a good enough presentation of a hopefully-to-be-improved battle system. Beyond the classes and Warlic himself though, the content there is barren. Where are other NAMED students? Where's the class clown, nerd, or bully? Do any of these students matter besides me? This shows even more in the houses... Am I seriously the only member? I'd like to think that house allegiance means I'll meet other house members, maybe ally with them on future missions, or run into rivals from other houses. The truth of it is that it's just one more shop, and if I decided to ditch my own house mecha, I'll never hear from any of the houses again.

I would think that GEARS would be the ideal setting to introduce some recurring ally and rival characters. Classic character archetypes like the cocky rival, the dangerous ally, the friendly enemy, the teacher who knows too much? The guy that taunts me even after I beat him, and leaves wise parting words like, "Smell ya later!" Those would have been nice. Sys-Zero and Odessa Pureheart seem to be the closest attempts so far, but they both kind of fade into obscurity once their respective missions have been completed. Hugh Munn was almost the kind of character that MechQuest needs, but he was killed off far too quickly. Pretty much every other Shadowscythe is a complete John Doe... I mean, who piloted the Trog or Decimator? And what IS the Doom Harvester?

I think we need more characterization for recurring characters like Sys-Zero, Braddock Steele, the Queenadent, etc. Sys-Zero has the look of an awesome character, but he sits uncomfortably between the roles of revered legend and modern hero, not really filling either role perfectly. Braddock Steele feels a little more personable, but only seeing him on one mission is a bit of a let-down. You'd think that a great galactic hero would show up for the Arthurian war, or try to find the missing superheroes of Zargon, wouldn't you? And did I really have to destroy the Decimator on my own, while Sys-Zero was just hanging out in the cabin? The same goes for the house representatives; they didn't earn that position by doing nothing, but it kind of feels that way. I want to know what wars they've been in, what associations they're involved with, what kind of mecha they pilot and what strategies they use. When I trash yet another weak Mystraven mecha at the K&S, I want to know that I beat down the cocky jerk from piloting class, not just another nameless dummy, and that he might try to sabotage one of my future missions if I'm not careful.

I don't know why, but I seem to have Pokemon on the mind tonight. Conveniently, Blue/Gary is a perfect example of what I think the game needs most- a recurring character, with a recognizable name and face, that actually grows as the story progresses. He starts off just a little better than you, picking the starter that beats yours. It would have been nice if the houses had a relationship like that, with you finding a rival in a different house depending on what you picked. As you progress through the levels, you see him growing with you (and always just slightly ahead). Even as he grows and finds more powerful allies, you'll notice that he keeps some and dumps others, in an ongoing attempt to find the group that best matches his personality. More astute players might have even noticed that his Raticate actually died, explaining why you run into him at the cemetery. His final team is always different, depending on which starter you chose, making you feel like your choices affected the development of your greatest rival. He's both fascinating and infuriating, and you're always looking forward to your next meeting. That's one of the things that keeps you playing- you WANT to kick his ass!

Anyway, back to the game at hand. From reading through this topic, it seems like I'm not the only one that thinks the Arthurian/Pirate War was the best event in recent times. Granted, I haven't been around long enough to know what things were like before, but I'm assuming the order was somewhat close to the storyline given on the board in Soluna. Anyway, I think there were two main reasons the Arthuria storyline worked so well. One, there were rewards at multiple points along the way, and earlier rewards weren't totally trivialized by later ones. That made the entire war saga worth playing. And two, even more importantly, Robert and Robina were likable and believable characters! They had multi-faceted personalities (lol Alamonia sheriff), a full history with fleshed-out allies and enemies (unlike Yokai's nameless Norris devotees), and actually do more than just sit around while you save the day (dammit Sys-Zero!). I'd genuinely like to see how Robert's reign turns out, and maybe have an excuse to help him again in the future. I wouldn't mind returning to Lagos in general, actually, if only because it seems like there's a lot more potential to tap there (and I have some awesome ideas for ocean-themed mecha!).

I'm getting a bit long-winded here, so I'll finish up now. In summary, I think one of the first steps to improving MechQuest is to populate it with actual people, not just one-time-use NPCs.



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 9:38:58)

@NaturallyMaria
I agree. Especially about the rival. We need a Gary.

And starbuck comes into the story a few times. As do some others, but not very much, we should see more of them.
About the ShS though, we don't need to know the pilot of every mecha. That is like saying that we need to know the complete history of every team rocket grunt. Yes, a few reoccurring ones would be nice, but not all need backgrounds.
@Zamuel
I disagree. If they had to give every new enemy 6 new attacks, that would take a long time for the staff. Also, as you said, the AI is stupid. Give the computer 2 strong attacks, and it will use them. Give the computer 2 strong attacks and 4 weak attacks, and it won't use its strong attacks that much, resulting in it being easy.

That is the main reason the monks are so easy. If all they gave them was chi force, that would be a challenge. But they gave them lots of attacks, so they hardly ever use chi force, so most of the time, they are really easy.



ZamuelNow -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 12:51:38)

@NaturallyMaria: I tip my hat to your post ma'am. (Assuming you're a she due to the username) What's interesting is that you as a newer player are making a very similar comment to a thread that was brought up last year as far as character development is concerned. I'm also intrigued by just how far you've gotten in the game in comparison to your level. Then again, it's been known for a while that the level cap and the amount of content aren't even remotely close to matching.

@stealthwings: I counter your disagreement with a disagreement, oh ho! Two attacks...is monotony. The main reason the monks are easier isn't because they have 3 attacks. It's because the stick users are so strong in comparison and because some of their specials are not effective against some builds. I've mostly fought Yokai with a customized Strider. For a little while I switched to my ARH. It actually did relatively well but regen halting is a brutal thing to do to an ARH and that's one of the specials in the monk's sky high attack. It also gives the Aegis problems since it has above average EN costs. I despise fighting the Sam Rye with the staff on the front arm so once I discovered that I had a Viking in my inventory I switched to that for the non-master fights. As far as giving enemies six attacks being hard for the staff? Two words:

  • Westion
  • Lagos

The trick to it is just to make the enemies weaponry as things that can immediately be given to the players to equip. This also helps solve the problems of a lack of equipment. As far as the concept of "two strong attacks and four weak attacks", don't make the other four attacks weak. 6 strong attack but with actual cooldowns mean you get plan your moves rather than put up with accuracy debuffs every single turn or getting chain stunned seven turns in a row (this wasn't on Yokai plus due to what I was using I survived it).



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 13:17:13)

@Zamuel
How well would you do if all the monks had were chi force and aura corruption, and if they used chi force a lot? You would run out of EP very quickly, and then be helpless as they killed you.

I can kill the dual stick users easily, along with the monks who don't use chi force. If one uses chi force when they still have HP left, I lose with most mecha. If they only had chi force, then they would be a lot harder.

And on westion and lagos, they did not have very many enemies. There are more types of enemies on yokai (Lots of different sam-ryes). So it would be a toss-up between more enemies or more attacks. If the point is to avoid monotony, it will come either way.



Unlikely -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 14:05:21)

since there isn't a function to change your account name or characters name i think they should put it on as i really want another name because i have been having a stupid name since 2007 and i can barely live with it, i have skullcrusher mechas and dragonguard stuff so its fun to roam the game but the name is really getting annoying, its already in dragonfable, and since that is also an offline game i think that there should be a name change option for nova gems in mq



ZamuelNow -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 14:32:52)

quote:

How well would you do if all the monks had were chi force and aura corruption, and if they used chi force a lot?


That...would be a very poorly designed enemy. It is essentially the same problem from back in the day when player mecha lacked Immobility resistance and there were enemies that could chain stun you. It's overpowering as opposed to being a true challenge. Using that mindset, you could just fight Rolith's mech in Assault Mecha using a non-scaled lvl 10 mecha so he's doing 100 damage per hit. The dual stick Sam Rye bug me because while I don't have a ton of rares, I'm not a horrible player and I have 100 points trained in Accuracy + some mods yet I miss a ton.

Westion could be argued as having limited variety but Lagos, limited or not, is a better template since more enemies were designed as being interchangeable due to arm, shoulder, and head options. Yokai's enemies seem designed like they should be interchangeable but they aren't. Plus, I'm pretty sure that the whole of Lagos has more regular enemies than Yokai (haven't finished the zone yet though) it's just that the pirates blend together visually. There's a variety of pirates plus Arthurians.

It's interesting to see different people's opinions on the game and I'm enjoying these conversations.



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 17:21:13)

You could look at it like that, or you could see it as an enemy which actually stood a chance unlike every other enemy in the game.



NaturallyMaria -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 17:30:16)

I'd really like to see enemies with upgraded parts on higher difficulties, not just inflated HP. I also think that the SC's Hard difficulty should be the default for NSC players, because Normal is just a joke no matter how you look at it. Exp can be bumped up accordingly.

More than anything else though, I think we need more non-scaled areas like the K&S. Having enemies at a fixed level helps give direction to players, indications of which challenges to tackle next, as well as what level you need to be to use the associated prizes. It's really no fun for a new player to come in and finish Yokai at level 12, only to find out that the prizes won't be usable without grinding for another week first.

The same logic applies to within quest chains, too. The Big Rusty Rat is a perfect example of this IMO- it's a checkpoint that forces you to be at least level 8 to pass, to ensure that you won't get access to the Mecharoni shop before you're a high enough level. Those early jobs could also use some better mid-level prize mechas like the Police SPD, so you don't actually have to finish the WHOLE quest just to get one decent prize. I know the weapon shops open up halfway through, but really, those weapons are all horrible. >_>



mechquestlord -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 17:58:30)

have default weapons which you can select the spechial for? like in adventurequest because all the classes have multible abilities you select which one. why not bring it into mechquest?



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 18:41:08)

That is what customization is for.



mechquestlord -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 18:53:17)

i dont mean customisation! i mean 1 weapon with 2 different spechials that you can choose to happen!



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 19:06:39)

The point of customization is so that you can choose what special happens.



ZamuelNow -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/13/2010 19:46:23)

quote:

You could look at it like that, or you could see it as an enemy which actually stood a chance unlike every other enemy in the game.


As far as standing a chance, the main thing holding enemies back is AI or rather the lack thereof. The thing with enemies is finding the right balance. Too much power for the players makes things boring. Too much power for enemies means you can't win. Yokai bugs me since the dual staff members shouldn't be as hard as they are for me since I've trained accuracy. Though it could just be a playstyle difference. Or perhaps it's an issue with the randomizer.

@NaturallyMaria: I'd disagree about shifting difficulty for two reasons. First is the fact that not everything has been updated so there's a valid chance for people to use the "wrong" mecha a get stomped for it. The other is something you accidentally discovered with Yokai and is the second time I've seen this recently--high level mecha don't always properly scale down and generally wind up being easier than they are supposed to be. It actually goes hand in hand with your suggestion that we need more non-scaled content because the scaling is a little off in places. Difficulty spikes up a bit after lvl 25 and this was a rather deliberate action done by the MQ team to ease newer players in.

For the longest I've argued that Ghost Hunting needs to release its mech sooner. You get a mecha for catching ghosts after you finish catching them all and thus it has less use. Hospital and Police handle it better. Most of those weapons are badly in need of an update. However, the Airstrike shoulders are useful for only having 1 cooldown and the Acid Injection arms are a guaranteed DOT. I think SPD also has a few stunning weapons.



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