RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (Full Version)

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liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 17:00:26)

^Nice theory there. I'll make one of my own. If Cyber Hunter can pwn every Class but a TM defeats Cyber Hunter, according to the logic I made, TM is stronger than Cyber Hunter which makes TMs "OP"

quote:

A cyber hunter does not need luck to win battles where as almost every other class needs some luck to beat a cyber hunter.


Even battle. A BM vs a CH. Both have different builds, no blocks no deflects or crits.

Lets put CH on first.
A "smart" CH will use EMP which really, only deals about 20 EP drain since most have it at level 1.
Great, BM Fireballs taking around 40 HP
CH will Malf about now.
BM goes and Boom, Gun for another 40 or so damage and healing
CH is forced to Heal
BM Strikes
CH can attack (BM still has a lot of HP...) About 40 Damage to the BM because of low resistance
BM goes and Strikes (May be Rage now) assuming it's not, CH is at low HP
CH Strikes again for 40 or so BM is at mid-low health
Rage gun, it's over.

quote:

The cyber hunter is OP and everyone knows it.


Great find, Sherlock! So what if everyone knows it? Does it prove a point? Have you seen us say BM is OP? Maybe even some BH is OP complaints? How about some Caster TM OP complaints? Well, if all Classes are OP, CH a single Class wouldn't be OP anymore, now would it?



5rr5 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:17:46)

This is starting to getting on my nerves. I have been waiting for this update for weeks, months and years!
Where is it!?
I want the game to be based on the stats, higher dex blocks more, higher support crits more etc.

Why can't it just depend on stats?

Isn't it so weird that a lvl 34 lose against a 30 ??



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:24:45)

@5rr5 Not sure which game you're playing but in less than 2 full days my superior support has given me close to 15 crits and made me start just about every battle I went into. Even against players 5 levels below me I still go first.



5rr5 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:25:40)

But they said in an update that lower level people had higher chance to start.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:26:45)

@5rr5 They changed how First Strike works so support is more important in who goes first. Lower levels still have a higher chance of going first but they're not guaranteed a first if you have much more support than them.



5rr5 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:31:16)

But I almost rage quit when I have over 120 support and a STR build with 30 support starts!



helloguy -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:32:19)

There's the invisible luck factor in this came



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:36:18)

Probably should point this out too from the first post.
quote:

No "luck" complaints - This thread is not a place to complain about an unlucky streak that caused you to lose a match. Please remember that while luck may seem to favor or disfavor you in the short run, over the long run it does average out.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:42:51)

I went ahead and retrained for 124 health and 50 energy with 26 defense and 29 resistance and these are the damages

33 fireball damage with max smoke
30 with bludgeon
21 with level 33 side arm
33 with regular strike at rage

Health at 124 energy at 50 and to get defense at 26-32 you need 86 dex and to get resistance at 29-35 you need 88 tech and the highest strength I got was 17-21 and this is not considered a strength build but more so a tank build. With strength that low you will not be getting squat for damage from the fireball unless they have really low defense. With strength that low the damage from the side arm will be too low to make a difference.

For the Blood Mage class to be considered balance they need to have good defense/resistance and have high damage. Damage less than 50 is not considered high damage. The damages I listed cannot categorize the Blood Mage as a high damage class.

Due to the combo of weapon/skill requiremenst it is impossible for a Level 34 Blood Mage to have high health defense/resistance and have high strength. Going against the same Level Players dealing damage 50 points or less, that class can’t be considered high damage class and to deal high damage it would mean they take high damage so the amount of health they get from max blood Lust does not mean anything.

The Blood Mage is far from being Over Powered then players think they are, to have high damage they need to debuff the opponent to lower defense/resistance and have extremely high stats to have high damage. With Plasma Rain being weak it does not matter if you have high dex with max reflex boost, they still get low damage with max Plasma Rain.

Cyber Hunters are weak against strength builds, you really have to clarify which class strength builds because a Cyber Hunter can easily beat a strength Blood Mage, even with the Blood Mage health at 124. With a level 3 EMP taking away 44 energy points is excessive for a skill at a low level and if you believe that is not excessive than tell us what is.

The Blood Mage is only a high damage class with extreme stats and is the most blocked class.
One gotta wonder why does so many want the multis to stay weak in 2vs2 and 2vs1 but want to get something done about strength builds. A multi build can easily defeat two strength builds if the multi is strong enough.
When I had low strength I went last but when I increased strength I started going first even against players with higher support so one has to question which decides who goes first strength or support?
When the level cap is raised we will have even more balance issues.
Balance issues are ever increasing with every little change they incorporate.



5rr5 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:45:27)

quote:

Probably should point this out too from the first post.

quote:

No "luck" complaints - This thread is not a place to complain about an unlucky streak that caused you to lose a match. Please remember that while luck may seem to favor or disfavor you in the short run, over the long run it does average out.



This is happening all the time to me, not only once. I was a beta tester in ED and I know how it was form the beginning, everything was much better! I remember the good old days, if just there come an update which could balance the classes. I don't understand why the Admins don't come and read these important stuff we players say!



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:51:43)

^

No worries, they do, just not often. You will be guaranteed that they read the forums at least every 7 days because of DNs. Rabblefroth is even a medium to the development team, as such, he has made a few threads and many posts!

EDIT:

Unfortunately some out of all ideas we have take too long to plan for and because of that a player suggested feature may only be implemented once every week or up to a year. It comes down to a list of priorities and time. They do listen though! Perhaps you want me to track them/bribe their internet service provider? I am kidding about the last sentence.

|
V



5rr5 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 18:52:39)

And you believe up to 100 % that they will listen to our ideas?



fhiz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/21/2012 19:24:19)

@ Hun Kingq

All I have ever seen you do is complain about how weak blood mages are. Blood mage can be a great class if used properly. Have you ever considered that you're just not a very good player?

I'm sure someone over in the battle strategy section of the forums would be glad to help you with your build. No one is too proud to ask for help every once in a while.



Now, my biggest issue with balance. (I've posted it a few times and revised it some in hopes that someone takes notice.)


Energy draining skills! (quick fixes)

Assimilation is just fine how it is.


Emp and atom smasher need a 3 turn cool down to make them less loopable.

Emp needs to be switched from tech scaling, to scaling with your character level to a fixed amount.

The amount of energy that atom smasher and emp take away should be equal because atom smasher is blockable and emp has a higher energy cost.

lvl 1=15 ep removed
lvl 2=17
lvl 3=19
lvl 4=21
lvl 5=23
lvl 6=25
lvl 7=27
lvl 8=29
lvl 9=31
lvl 10=33

Notice that it starts at, and increases at the same rate of skills such as fire ball and bunker buster. This means that if you invest 10 points into atom smasher/emp. you are able to completely counter something that you're opponent has invested 10 points into. This to me seems 100% fair, a strategic little give and take.


----edit-----

Looking back maybe atom smasher should do slightly more seeing as it is way at the bottom of your skill tree and emp is in the first/second row.

Maybe atom smasher could start at 17 and go up to 35. (follows the energy cost of field medic.)



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 5:52:27)

@ Fhiz

I told him plenty of times that BloodMage aren't UP and neather are they OP (Luck makes them OP but Luck ain't a Balance issue so)
I'm using a 5 Focus BloodMage, those that have fought me all thought ' What the hell ' because my build has no actual Damage skill...

I'm proud to be one of the first, if not the first 5 Focus BM that is succesfull, the Only real Weakness I have is EMP CyberHunters just because
I can't Regain energy ( Reflex Boost's effects cancel eachother out so it doesn't count ) nor can I destroy Energy myself so that makes it a bit harder against those...


I like the Idea of Making EMP Fixed, but I don't think Atom Smasher needs to be fixed... The skill is a Tier 4 and it is blockable...
EMP on the other hand is a Tier 1/2 and Unblockable hence its OPness

quote:

Let's put CH on first.
A "smart" CH will use EMP which really, only deals about 20 EP drain since most have it at level 1. a ' Smart ' CH would have an EMP at lvl 1 that does between 28-30 energy drain
Great, BM Fireballs taking around 40 HP a BloodMage lately has about 60 energy after EMP meaning No Fireball can be used (unless they have 66 energy which is rare)
CH will Malf about now.
BM goes and Boom, Gun for another 40 or so damage and healing Maybe it will do 40, maybe it will only do 20 damage due to Higher Deflect chances with Malf in play
CH is forced to Heal
BM Strikes CH have rather High Dex, always consider a Block chance
CH can attack (BM still has a lot of HP...) About 40 Damage to the BM because of low resistance a Smart CH would use Static Charge to regain energy
BM goes and Strikes (May be Rage now) assuming it's not, CH is at low HP
CH Strikes again for 40 or so BM is at mid-low health
Rage gun, it's over.



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 7:53:53)

@Calogero

Yes, that might be what would happen but, my scenario was a reply to this (Page 12, last post)

quote:

Just because a class's build loses by one type of build but pwns every other build does not make the class "balanced" or not "OP". The cyber hunter is OP and everyone knows it. A cyber hunter does not need luck to win battles where as almost every other class needs some luck to beat a cyber hunter.


So technically speaking, the Cyber Hunter needs no luck which means that it needs no blocks or deflects while a BM in this case, would need luck so the BM would get blocks and deflects.

But, to be fair, we'll just do no blocks/deflects/crits for either side.

So, the BM's strike will not be blocked and the gun will not be deflected.

As for EMP, my Level 1 EMP has never drained 28 EP. The most it has drained is 26. Although, I do have low Tech. Besides, if they can't Fireball, Bludegon does almost the same amount of DMG and in this case, it wouldn't be blocked.

A side note, I saw some videos of your 5 focus BM in 1vs1 but does it work well in 2vs2?



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 7:57:00)

My build works fine in 1v1 and Juggernaut, In 2v2 it's the same as always, It depends on Opponents and Partner... also Like I said earlier, EMP is my weakspot...



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 10:33:40)

@Calogero
I actually find EMP Grenade fine to me , though CH abuses it , yet BH doesn't .



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 12:23:38)

Fhiz, I am one of the best players in the game ask Nightwraith, Wiseman, and many staff that fought me and lost or fought with me and won. Show me where I wrote Blood Mages are weak. The skills at low level stats are weak and can’t categorized the Blood Mage being a powerhouse and the reason why they don’t have passive armors or a debuff skill that increases damage is because they are suppose to inflict a large amount of damage and if you think damage in the mid to low 30s is huge, you would have to really reconsider that thought process. The recent post was to address a players post in thinking a 124 health/energy with 26 defense/29 resistance is a strength build and only players that could have that health with defense and resistance and strength above 20 is the ones with Alpha/Beta weapons. Recently players are trying to get the energy cost increase on Bludgeon when the Blood mages have enough skills that cost energy and they don’t have any viable energy regain. The Blood Mage is suppose to be physical high damage dealers but if the damage is 35 and below at max skill with mid level stats then that description does not fit them.

Calogero try not using the bot to win your battles and that is the only reason why you have 5 focus.

I actually use skill and tactics to win battles ask one player that comes to this forum who won when I was testing for blocking with the lowest health possible to get high dex. That match was the only match I had a lot of blocks the rest, blocks was non-existence.

Fhiz, when the staff does something as they did with the multis someone has to confront them on that especially when there is so many complaints about strength builds and only reason the rest of you don’t want to stand up to the staff and tell them what they did was wrong is because you are afraid to do so or want to brown nose for some unknown reason but me I have in the past debated staff and will force them to give me a logical reason why they did what they did. Like there was no logic at all to make an unnecessary change to the multis as they did especially when Plasma Rain real damage was at 180 dex or they was no logic in removing Assimilation from the Blood Mage. No logic in removing technician from the Blood Mage. No logic in removing Berzerker from the Blood Mage when the merc class can do high damage with double strike then finish you off with Berzerker.


If everyone wants something down about strength builds then fight for the multis to be fixed, fight for the new classes to get new multis then that way the multis for each class can be adjusted without affecting the other classes.

Put pressure on the staff to release the new multis and the new ultimate skills for the new classes. Put pressure on the staff to balance the weapons and skills especially the energy drain skills.

If the Blood Mage is suppose to be a physical high damage dealer then they need to stop doing things that makes them inflict low damage.

Emp and Atom Smasher both needs to be dealt with because the Cyber Hunter abuses EMP and Tact mercs abuse Atom Smasher both those skills take away too much energy even at low levels.

Reduce the amount for energy they take away and make them a one-use skill and in 2vs2 and 2vs1 a players energy drain can only be drained once.

At this point in time balance is not in the game, the staff knows this and they have a long way to go.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 12:32:35)

quote:

Fhiz, I am one of the best players in the game ask Nightwraith, Wiseman, and many staff that fought me and lost or fought with me and won.


Cough Ego Cough what is your Win% ;)

quote:

Calogero try not using the bot to win your battles and that is the only reason why you have 5 focus.


And why Shouldn't I use my bot?
That's like saying as a STR build, Do not use Firebolt or Gun..

My Build is a lot more Tactical than you think ;)



5rr5 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 13:08:13)

I bet the next thing you guys are gonna say is removing EMP because it's OP! All classes need at least 1 OP skill so you guys can't just remove it because that's your weakness!



Algorithm -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 13:12:50)

quote:

Fhiz, I am one of the best players in the game. . .

pls help build level 19 blod mage pm me.
tnx
~algoirhjm



Lord Loss... -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 13:15:41)

I think bms are totally underpowered. so what if their strenght build is twice as affective than a str build of any other class. so what if their caster type builds can deal as much damage as mages, I say it should do 10 times as much. Big deal if lvl 1 bludgeon does more damage than lvl 5 berzerker, we need to make it so that it matches lvl 10 massacre. and I know many of you will disagree with me. also I think that instead of energy shield bms should have hbrid armor like merces only instead of 6 def and resist it gives 12 def and resist, do all this and triple deadly aim power. we have a class that is not underpowered and not op at all. who is with me.

This post was necesary to support the best bm in the game as said by many staff members aparantly.



5rr5 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 13:15:54)

quote:

Fhiz, I am one of the best players in the game ask Nightwraith, Wiseman, and many staff that fought me and lost or fought with me and won.

It's 80 % luck 20 % skill when you win a battle since you can easily die if they crit you.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 14:49:34)

@ lord aegis. Im a BH and I make sure to abuse EMP. I find it a very crucial skill in my high tech build. i roughly take away 40 EP at level 1



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/22/2012 14:56:59)

@ above

40 at lvl 1 o.O that a lot of tech u have there.



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