RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (Full Version)

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Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 15:06:55)

quote:

To all Cyber Hunters: it was Plasma Armour that caused this.

Most intelligent and logical thing said in the past 20 pages.
quote:

Depressed Void no it was all the heal looping and Emp looping that caused this.

Remove EMP and PA, then there would be no more EMP looping and its harder for CH to survive with less resistance from losing PA, most CH would've been happier about the nerf I just proposed instead of having to invest 10 skill points for a blockable attack that will give them 3-5 energy if it connects. DV was right because almost nobody complained about EMP before PA was introduced and back then static gave back a lot more.
quote:

^ Even if this true it can still be blocked, and I have still have seen a level 1 EMP steal more energy then a maxed out atom smasher.

And I've seen a lv 1 atom smasher take away a bit more energy than my EMP. As far as I'm concerned they are equal (ones blockable but can take away more and costs less while the other is consistent).

@depressed
Like your trait idea. Would definitely add strategy into the game, if we make the skill trees 5 by 5 and use your trait idea then strategy might be existent in this game.



xGreen Warriorx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 15:09:50)

Edit: ^ EMP doesn't need to be removed, maybe just changed to improve with support or something. Its another important strategic thing (like static charge, read below), and if it goes, it will destroy CH jugging for one thing, and for another it will make BM more OP against CH because we won't be able to make them unable to do fireball, plasma cannon, etc, which still do a lot of dmg even after the BM nerf.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Static charge, cyber hunters most unique skill, and what defines their strategy for me, has been nerfed to the ground. I've tried to deal with it by carrying energy boosters and adjusting my build to have more energy, but it isn't working, and I'm no longer having as much fun as a cyber.

I have several buff suggestions for static charge:
~1. Change it back to the way it was: 29%, deals dmg based on str.
~2. Make it have no cooldown, and reduce the % to 25.
~3. Change it to a passive, make it give you energy only when you strike, gun, and aux, and reduce the % to 20, 18, 16 whatever everyone thinks is best. (I think I would prefer this.)
~4. Change the % to 55 (based on dmg) and make the cooldown 3.
~5. Make it unblockable, and possibly bump the % up a little bit (1-5%).
Feel free to think of your own.

If you don't like one of my suggestions, please don't flame, I'm just throwing ideas out there.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 15:16:21)

MR. Black op equal? sorry but no. Even if atom smasher costs less there is always that percent chance that it can be blocked while with EMP it is always 100% Plus the amount of points you have to spend between the two is completely unbalanced.

For Cyber hunters they don't have to pay one skill point for a move that is 100% energy draining from the get go, while every other class (with the exception of bounty hunter and Blood mage) has to pay 3 skill points to use a move that has the possibility of being blocked. Even if the other moves cost less (and with TM it is free but has higher cooldown to balance with the other level 4 tier drain moves)

Even with bounty hunter they have to spend at least one point to get EMP where as CH get it from the start. Oh sure that is very 'equal'



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 15:24:08)

Listen to this devs...



Plasma AURA!!!
Passively decreases all energy based attacks to you on a scaling percentage.


Level 1: 3%
Level 2: 5%
Level 3: 7%
Level 4: 9%
Level 5: 10%
Level 6: 11%
Level 7: 12%
Level 8: 13%
Level 9: 14%
Level 10: 15%

Can be ignored on crit and rage.

EXAMPLE:

Enemy hits you with 69 Plasma Bolt. The Cyber has Level 7 Plasma Aura (12%). So, Plasma Aura would ignore 8 damage.

Say you were hit with 21 damage. A max Plasma Aura (15%) would decrease only 3 damage, versus Plasma Armors 11. Plasma Armor is better in the sense you are hit with 3-70 damage, however, once it goes above 70 damage, Plasma Aura is better. But...um...70 damage? Yeah...that's a lot...




Static Charge
Regain a set amount of energy back from each hit you give to your enemy. (static charge does 20% less damage)

Level 1: 1/2/3 EP
Level 2: 3/4/5 EP
Level 3: 5/6/7 EP
Level 4: 7/8 EP
Level 5: 8/9 EP
Level 6: 9/10 EP
Level 7: 10/11 EP
Level 8: 11/12 EP
Level 9: 12/13 EP
Level 10: 14 EP

Warm UP: 0
Cool Down: 3

Requirements
36 Technology at MAX

CAN be blocked





EMP
Just changed to Tier 3


EXAMPLE

Field Medic-CheapShot-Defense Matrix
Plasma Aura-Static Charge-Plasma Grenade
Multi Shot-Malfunction-EMP Grenade
Venom Strike-Massacre-Shadow Arts



Like really? Is that a horrible idea?



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 15:26:30)

@mother
17-21+35
A reasonable amount of strength right? At level 1 it takes away 48%, 52 x .48 is around 25 (rounding up from 24.96), the equivalent of my EMP and that's the minimum, it costs less at the cost of being blockable. So in my eyes they are equal, if you're saying getting blocked is such a big deal then follow your own advice that you gave CH (which was get more energy), get more dexterity.

Considering the most used part of the TLM skill tree leads to atom smasher you only have to invest 1 point (in frenzy) before you can reach it and many TLM do use frenzy so you pretty much just need to invest 1 point into it and then switch DM with EMP if tiering is so important.

@below
Yup, I already have a warning so I have to make sure nothing I say can be used against me when I post. [:(]
That's why I get ninjaed so often.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 15:28:10)

@ Above


Psssh.
I gots two warnings. I'm just trying to help the community :)



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 15:29:50)

Raynie, I support that suggestion 10.1%101%. (Typo lol)

It would be very beneficial to Cyber Hunters and the whole community.



xGreen Warriorx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 16:08:08)

^ Same, although I would like the Plasma Aura to be just a bit different:

Level 1: 3%
Level 2: 6%
Level 3: 8%
Level 4: 10%
Level 5: 12%
Level 6: 13%
Level 7: 14%
Level 8: 15%
Level 9: 16%
Level 10: 17%

Basically just a higher increment in the lower lvls, like most other skills.



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 16:10:48)

^Then a max SC is 1 L1 heal. Sounds good.

Why are we bragging about how many warnings we have?



xGreen Warriorx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 17:01:52)

^ Actually that was about Plasma aura. And I have no clue about the warnings. My bro has 1. :P



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 17:25:26)

I have a suggestion to further balance Strength and Support:

1 - "Unarmed Strike" and "Strike"

2 - Support improves Sidearm damage

3 - Auxiliary bonus damage removed

1 - Unarmed Strike is a weaker version of Strike. Using the arms and/or legs, a player damages a target for only base Strength damage without Primary weapon damage. If I have Strength damage that equals 12-16 (+35), Unarmed Strike hits for 12-16... without the bonus 35 damage from the Primary weapon. Unarmed Strike has no cooldown. Also... Strike has a cooldown of 1 turn.

2 - Sidearm weapons become a Support weapon alongside the Auxiliary weapons. Cooldowns are still 2 for the Sidearm, and 3 for the Auxiliary.

3 - The old Auxiliary bonus of 5 damage is removed from all Auxiliaries to simply have the Auxiliary damage as much as a Sidearm but have more cooldowns. The intention was to balance all weapon damage and leave the differences to different cooldowns and different weapons (Unarmed and Strike VS Sidearm and Auxiliary).


Furthermore, until the battle mechanics are less luck-oriented and more strategy-oriented (block, deflect, critical strike), Dexterity and Technology should have more balanced battle mechanics. Strike alone can still be used more often than having both Sidearm and Auxiliary.

This what Strike looks like with a 1 turn cooldown (Y means USED, N means UNUSED):

Strike

Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N - Y - N

This is what Sidearm AND Auxiliary look like with cooldowns (Y means USED, N means UNUSED):

Sidearm

Y - N - N - Y - N - N - Y - N - N - Y - N - N - Y - N - N - Y - N - N - Y - N - N - Y - N - N

Auxiliary

N - Y - N - N - N - Y - N - N - N - N - Y - N - N - N - Y - N - N - N - N - Y - N - N - N - Y

In total, Strike can be used 12 of 24 turns, Sidearm AND Auxiliary can be used 14 of 24 turns. 2 weapons VS 1 weapon of equal damage and according cooldowns are extremely balanced now! Sidearm and Auxiliary still potentially hit more damage because of the difference of block VS deflection. With this new set up, blocks and deflections should resultantly change to be relatively balanced. Should deflections become "dodges" or "parries" where the damage is completely stopped? Or should blocks become deflections wherein only 50% of the damage is stopped? I am not sure about you, but personally I prefer when the ranged attacks are completely stopped vs partial stop since I prefer longer battles. The above question could be polled.

Almost forgot, it is by chance that someone may ask, "where is the difference between Strength and Support now?"

My response: more stat perks!

Support's rage gain could potentially be moved to Strength.

These were some ideas, definitely ask questions regarding this if something bothers you here.



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 17:26:57)

Just replace BM's imitate with smoksreen that improves with strength.... lol im just kidding but i'd like passive defenses to be nerfed or not used at all.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 17:52:21)

Minus was the evolved classes, plasma armor is probably the grandest mistake ever made by the balance team. Couldn't even balance 3 classes and now you expect to balance 6? I doubt it.

@Mother1 If you were even around during Pre-Plasma armor days CH were probably one of the most balanced classes. Emp wasn't even a problem. It's all Plasma armor. God that was such a lazy solution and look where it got us.

Also can someone list all the recent nerfs? Ive been quite awhile :3



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 17:59:36)

quote:

(Almost every single CH used Static at level 5 or higher pre-nerf).
quote:

Also level 5 pre nerf? Maybe lower level CH but almost all the CH I see use 8-10 static and on a rare case seven but never 5.

Mother1:
I simply said 5+ to make sure I included EVERY SINGLE CH. There's always that lone wolf who doesn't use static; this was just to include them as well. No need to correct everything I say; if I did that to you, how would you feel? (Trust me, you've got a lot of errors in your posts too, and I'm not just talking about grammar or point of view). I state my point, you state yours, and we're both happy. Everyone on the forums knows by now that you hate Heal/EMP Loop CH, and I hate the Static nerf and blame Plasma Armor; how about we talk about something else for once? Like how great Depressed Void's idea is?



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 18:00:26)

Zeoth here is all the nerfs I remember

Blood mages

Fireball increase with 4 strength instead of 3
Plasma cannon base damage 18-36 instead of 22-40
Bludgeon replaces berzerker
Plasma rain powered by dex instead of tech
Supercharge powered by tech instead of dex

Tech Merc

Mineral armor now gives 10 protection instead of 11
Toxic gernades now does 12 instead of 14 due to balancing of moves
Smoke was replaced with Field commander as well as mineral armor being weakened to 11 from 12

Tech mage

Plasma rain was made to be powered by dex instead of tech
Supercharge powered by tech instead of dex

Cyber hunter

Static now returns energy based on actual damage instead of raw damage
Plasma armor weakened to 10 from 11
Static was weakened from 44% raw damage to 29% raw damage

Merc

Hybrid armor going down from 7 defense and 6 resist to 6 defense and 5 resist due to balancing bug being corrected

Bounty hunter

None that I have seen

This is all I remember if anyone else has more that I missed please add on



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 18:02:37)

Oh alright, that was further back than needed but okay xP. I just meant over the last couple months. All the same though.



Renegade Reaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 18:18:25)

the only thing i remember from bounty hunter is that in beta times i think, you could rage massacre.



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 18:19:41)

Alpha; Diamond Blades increased Primary damage.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 18:33:20)

^That reminds me....Does anyone every think that if the Alpha skills were brought back for all classes, maybe the game would be more balanced!?

EDIT: nvm that already sounds stupid xD



fhiz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 19:26:55)

I think this week's balance was definitely a step in the right direction.

Static charge - I'm not a cyber hunter. In fact, they are by far my least favorite class, but even I can see that static charge is too weak now. What it should be is a fixed amount 1-10 and still block able. Against my 29-34+5 resistance, average cyber hunters get's 4-5 energy back with max static charge, so what I said would be a buff. I also say it should be a fixed amount so it doesn't further disadvantage someone who wants to use a build other then strength. To go along with this, a level one emp should cost 11 energy so it can't be looped to such an extreme.


Fireball - This is good because it only affects strength blood mages. They were able to do too much damage and I'm glad they took it from fire ball rather then bludgeon or deadly aim so it doesn't affect tech mages.
Plasma cannon - I haven't fought too many plasma cannon builds so I didn't notice a problem with it.

minus 1 from p/m armors - I guess it's fine, but tactical mercenaries are already the weakest class in the game. They need some sort of buff.

Adrenaline? Hmm, adrenaline....Oh yeah! That thing at the bottom of the merc's skill tree that was just taking up space.

quote:

Adrenaline was not awarding extra Rage in some circumstances


On either of my mercenaries, I can honestly say that Adrenaline never did anything for me. Any time I needed rage for the kill, I was always a sliver away, and any time I had rage, it didn't matter, I would have killed them without rage. Maybe it will do something now.



ForTun3 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 19:50:27)

can i suggest that the bunker buster and plasma cannon be de debuffed or make it so it increaces every four skill points or as i said before half the debuff to -2 instead of -4? i just cant get it powerfull enough without sacrificing too much of something/making my build a completely differnt experience and useless really my bot is 30-34+24 and my plasma is only 64-68 so its only doing 8 more base damage at 33 mana a hit its not worth using... like 4 dmg is actually more like 8 to 12 when u factor in the 20% extra and crit... basicly where i used to do say 45 im now dowing say 35 or 32 and i can acheve this and more with a lvl 3 blidgeon with a primary att of 13-16+36-1... if anything needs a debuff its bludgeon...

so changing back to tecmage if it doesnt change


@shades of blue

yea i have thort that... i think a good experiment would be to remove every debuff thats ever happend and see how that goes then start re-de-buffing from their???

EDIT: the infernal android... ok reason why this debuff is bad.. basicly i have to raise my tech alot to get those 4 dmg back right 20 points if its working properly!
this will mean that my bot is also 4 dmg mor or their abouts but yea add the 50!% and you end up with more damage than what you were doing before so if you dont mind loosing a def point some hp and mb some support you will actually be more powerfull...

another suggestion... undo the debuff and make the new bot start at 100% and max out at 120-125% or 133% even? but make it do 12-16 dmg



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 19:55:12)

@fhiz
TLMs are weakEST class in the game? So Mercenaries are better? <_<



xGreen Warriorx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 20:46:48)

^ Yup. I was a TLM before smoke and technician got taken away, and the moment they were, I changed to cyber because yeah, it felt like they were the weakest class in the game.

quote:

tactical mercenaries are already the weakest class in the game. They need some sort of buff.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 20:59:38)

Talk about an OP passive armor and a skill that can take 20+ energy :P



fhiz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 21:44:01)

@trans

That's up for debate. Mercenaries have been buffed in the past two balance updates (blood commander and adrenaline) while Tlm's just received a further nerf.

Hp regain - Frenzy = blood commander. Mercenaries will get about 4-5health back per turn (16-20 in 4 turns) with blood commander while tlm's will get about that with a rage frenzy.

Ep regain - Reroute > nothing. Tlm's win here, but if you're against an abusive energy drainer, they will take it before you have enough to do anything with.

Defenses - Mineral armor < Hybrid armor. Split Def/res armors seem to be the trend at the moment and on my Tlm, if I try to keep my def and res relatively equal while using delta knight, I find myself getting blocked more often then I'd like.

Debuff - Nothing < intimidate. Intimidate is far more useful them a lot of people realize and it is one of my favorite skills which has saved me countless times.

Active armors - Blood shield = nothing. Blood shield is useless and we all know it.

Stun - stun grenade <<<< Maul. Stun grenade is weak and with mineral armor being physical, you will get no damage out of it using a realistic build. It is only useful for the possible stun, and they can't increase the chance to stun like bounty hunter's can. That's unlike maul which is a powerhouse of a move that you can increase the chance to stun with.

Berserker and bunker buster > Toxic grenade and ????

Adrenaline is useless....


I guess you could argue that frenzy is better then blood commander, and if you have a +9 resistance armor, then you'd probably prefer mineral armor, but the only real advantage a Tlm has over a mercenary is reroute. Which is a very big advantage especially in battles where you get emp'd/AS 3 times.


Little bit more to add. Before I switched to Tlm, my non varium(at the time) strength mercenary was getting around a 66% win ratio(no npc's) from levels 26-30. I recently started a new mercenary and from level's 18-24, I got a 90.5% win ratio(still no npc's) and won daily solo champ.

All in all, I'd have to say that mercenary's aren't only slightly better then TLm's, but they are also FAR more fun to play as.



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