RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 11:43:42)

Shade bringing it back up to 33 max will help out the higher levels, but not the lower levels. getting 2 hit ko'ed isn't cool in any kind of duel unless you or your opponent are at fault for going in without good or any gear.

The lower levels will just add the extra points they need to use it, and max malf and max plasma bolt together is a very lethal combo especially on mercs since they don't have the old blood shield. Plus when is it ok for a regular move that works with the same stat as an ultimate be more powerful then it? It isn't right seriously.

Shade on the CH thing people were complaining about how CH were abusing heal loops. While it wasn't all CH there were some who would spam dex and tech while leaving str and support low. They knew that static if it connected would give them mid to high teen number of energy (which was overly abused and way op as I have been pointing out) regradless of what it hit. No one has been able to explain this to me yet so please explain how was it fair that you could gain a 15-16 (Using that as an example) energy back when you only hit a 3 or 4 (another example)

But seriously,I am using my alt which is a cyber hunter without enhanced gear, and I am still winning a good amount of my fights. I mean sure I lose to fully enhanced varium players, but still I am winning without using static or using it only once per duel and I am not using a str build with this my alt either. So Shade the only people that nerf hurt was the ones who either over relied on static or those who were abusing it.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 12:08:15)

And why should you hit a 3 or a 4? If I regained 16 energy pre-nerf, I would need at least 52 raw damage. 52 raw damage really shouldn't only hit 3 or a 4 on a Malf'd player; we must seriously have a Tanking problem here. And we regained that only once every 3 turns, so we regain an average of 5.3 energy per turn. Many TM's regain at least 5 energy per turn;so Static really wasn't that strong.
quote:

So Shade the only people that nerf hurt was the ones who either over relied on static or those who were abusing it.
That's like saying if we nerfed Reroute to 10% regained at MAX, and then say: "The only players hurt by this nerf are the ones who were either abusing it or over relying on it". Then we say: "Eh, it's simple, just get more energy!" "It was because you guys were abusing Malfunction Loops and the Plasma Bolt Loops!" "Don't rely on one skill to help you win!" "Don't put your eggs in one basket!" "Adapt, Evolve, or Die, simple as that!" "TM's deserved this nerf!"

I never really had a problem with TM's when I was starting out as a non-varium; back then those Plasma Bolt still had a 33 energy requirement. It might of been because of all those SUPP Mercs running around though xD

quote:

Shade on the CH thing people were complaining about how CH were abusing heal loops

._. Erm.....First, you said Heal Loops were ok but EMP Loops weren't, and now you say Heal Loops are OP'd and don't even mention EMP Loops.....I'm confused.



Steel Slayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 12:18:12)

@ Mother1, /agree, energy cost isnt the answer for PB. Nerfing the base damage maybe 6 or 8 should be enough.
@shades
quote:

Sure, they're Tanky, but what about their Offensive power? You can Rage on them, but they'll just heal back up with a level 7 heal. Then they completely obliterate you with 20-24 STR (Or the Infernal Android), while you keep doing 5 damage to them every turn. Unless Rage comes every other turn, TLM's are still VERY powerful, and I have not beat a SINGLE Tank/STR Hybrid TLM in 1v1 since the Static Nerf.
Sorry, but if a TLM has this much str, they arent tanking, would be almost impossible to get def+res much over 40 with this level of str(a real tank IMO has at least 45 on both). Unless maybe they only have 20 support? In which case, they're gonna have to eat crit sometime. Malf them, massacre, EMP their heals, dont forget cheap shot's 25% crit rate, they go down fast enough. I'll agree static got a bit over nerfed, but as Mother1 said, it was ridiculous before. It should stay based on actual damage, the % should maybe go up a little bit, say 35% at max, certainly not more than 40%.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 12:23:22)

quote:

Sorry, but if a TLM has this much str, they arent tanking

Exactly. They're STR/TANK Hybrids. Have you seen those types of TLM's before? The ones with 7-9 +39 Aux, 20-24 +35 Primary/secondary, 25-30 +5 +1 +10 Defense, 31-38 +5 +1 Resistance, 95 HP and default energy? As soon as you rage, they just heal back for all the damage you just raged for. You deal like 7 damage per turn while deal about 20. They Atom Smash Loop you with the spare energy after they heal, and really, I don't see a reason for them to get buffed right now.



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 12:25:35)

In 2v2, Multi still works well.

With my 141 Dexterity, as Tech MAge, I usually Malf, then Plasma Rain, then other moves.

It usually does 45 to the malfed player and 35 to the regular (non-malfed) player.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 12:29:36)

^It does, doesn't it? I usually do about 45 in a 1v1 on a non-malfed player, and at least 32 on unmalfed players in 2v2.



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 12:31:22)

Yeah.

I've raged 61 on a malfed player [;)]

If it wasn't nerfed I'd be doing 50s in 2v2.



Steel Slayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 12:58:00)

quote:

Exactly. They're STR/TANK Hybrids. Have you seen those types of TLM's before? The ones with 7-9 +39 Aux, 20-24 +35 Primary/secondary, 25-30 +5 +1 +10 Defense, 31-38 +5 +1 Resistance, 95 HP and default energy? As soon as you rage, they just heal back for all the damage you just raged for. You deal like 7 damage per turn while deal about 20. They Atom Smash Loop you with the spare energy after they heal, and really, I don't see a reason for them to get buffed right now.
Yep, Ive seen 'em, and I crush them. 38+5+1=44 resistance at the high end of the range. With the focus build I've been using, I've got 67 strength(16-20 damage range, I really try not to go much lower than that on ANY build), gives me51-55 damage on strikes, for a minimum damage of 7 as you described, up to18 depending on RNG. Level 4 malf on this build takes off 32 Tech, bringing their resist down by 10. Now im getting a 23 damage strike on average. Thats a 4 turn kill on 95 health if they dont heal, and my EMP says they DEFINITELY dont heal. Also, you say 7-9+39 aux, thats 31 support at the most. They are begging for a crit, and with support that low their bot is useless, no worries there. Cheap shot gives it to them, and if that doesnt do it, if I'm a hunter, I always have at least a level 1 massacre on hand.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 12:59:30)

Shade is a difference between reroute and static. With reroute you have to take a beating to get your energy back where as with static you do the beating to gain energy. Plus the majority of TM don't max out their reroute like most CH do with their static which means we have to take even more of a beating to get the same amount of energy CH would get back from one strike of static. I will use my current level for example. for me to gain 15 energy through reroute I would need to take 60 damage! 60! and for me that is almost 75% of my bar and for high health TM that that is almost 50-70% of their actual health which is a lot of damage and this is with reroute at level 7!

Now if you have maxed out reroute (with TLM do more the TM) you would gain 18 energy for that same 60 damage, however you still would have to take a decent beating to gain this energy and that is the amount at max you would have to take to gain a level one heal and with most players who have decent defenses this would take sometime unless they are dealing with str players or players who Spammed a certain stat to do heavy Damage.

As for why I am not mention EMP loop which is still a issue but not as big of issue it is simple. While Emp loops are annoying a solution has been thought up for it by users. Most the EMP down to the 4th tier in Plasma gernades spot, place defensive matrix in EMP's spot, and place the Plasma gernade in the old Defense matrix spot. This would not only help with the EMP looping (since now you would have to pay for it with skill points instead of just using paying to power it up or in most abusers cases just use it at level 1) But it would put it in par with the other energy draining skills since it wouldn't be easy access like before.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 13:16:04)

@Steel I have 6-8 on my Aux; only way that I have enough points to invest in energy. So they actually have a better chance of critting me than I have of critting them. EMP is not an option for me; I'm DEX abuse, and when I tried EMP'ing them while I was TECH abuse, they simply kept striking me until I was dead, since I could keep up my usually high DEX while I used TECH abuse. Also, I can't keep 16-20 STR, since I need all my spare points going into Energy. I currently have 14-17 STR. Massacre, for me, does about 20-25 damage. I don't have enough energy to waste on a level 4 Malf; and I have low SUPP, so I only take away 16 at level 1.

@Mother1
It really isn't that different. Static can be blocked, so it's not that reliable, and Reroute may not give you energy when you need it. And although for Static, you deal damage, instead of take damage, Reroute works on your opponent's turn, so you get to deal damage too (with a different move). Static works on our turn, so sometimes it backfires; I heal, and a few turns later, my static comes up at the same turn my heal can be used again; I have to wait a turn to heal since I need to Static for that energy first; but I'll probably be dead on my opponent's next move, so I'm basically screwed.



Steel Slayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 13:18:29)

Wait, you're using dex abuse build in 1v1?



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 13:22:37)

^Yes of course it's one of the only things that work besides TECH abuse and SUPER STR MAX MALF abuse. You should try it; it works well in both 1v1 and 2v2.

quote:

Plus the majority of TM don't max out their reroute like most CH do with their static which means we have to take even more of a beating to get the same amount of energy CH would get back from one strike of static.

This really isn't our fault; Static depends on STR, while reroute is fixed for all builds, so unless we're doing STR abuse, we need MAX Static to make up for less STR.

quote:

While Emp loops are annoying a solution has been thought up for it by users. Most the EMP down to the 4th tier in Plasma gernades spot, place defensive matrix in EMP's spot, and place the Plasma gernade in the old Defense matrix spot. This would not only help with the EMP looping (since now you would have to pay for it with skill points instead of just using paying to power it up or in most abusers cases just use it at level 1) But it would put it in par with the other energy draining skills since it wouldn't be easy access like before.

It's a good solution, but I'm not sure it'll fix your problem. EMP Loop will probably still exist. Most CH's use Malf, and with such a bad Static, they don't really invest in it anymore, so they have points to spare. Most of them will invest in EMP, since Shadow Arts is a good move but has a SUPP requirement, making it unusable when you need to invest in Energy, since all our other stats would drop tremendously.



Steel Slayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 13:39:58)

I've tried that 1, works great in 2v2, but I didnt like it for 1v1, but now I can see why you're having problems with TLM, that build would be strong against dex abuse. I had a very effective massacre/dex tank build for 1v1 during the war, I'd be happy to tell you about it if you want.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 13:44:03)

Actually when you think about it, the old 29% raw damage static was on par with reroute maxed out. Minus the fact the way you get the energy is different, you still get energy on about the same level. The average cyber would gain about 11-15 energy on the old static which still has its old 2 turn cool down. Reroute is active all the time and if your taking decent damage you would gain that same amount in three turns. It's like this for static assuming you don't get blocked.

Static-move-move-static
Static wasnt even overpowered. It's just a matter of perspective. Plus the fact cybers have the all stupid solution plasma armor. And easy access to the best energy drain in the game. Cyber skill tree needs to be reworked.



Steel Slayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 14:38:20)

Zeoth, pre-nerf static was way, way stronger than reroute. Reroute was never able to give enough energy to infinitely loop heals, since 33 health gained from level 1 FM(most energy-efficient heal, at higher levels this gets worse) wont get you enough out of reroute(max=30% of damage taken) to do another heal. 33*.3=11.88 energy regained, FM costs 17. Trust me, I played 6 months as TLM, reroute couldnt loop heals forever, it just seems like it when youre the other guy ;)

Pre-nerf static, on the other hand, with a decent amount of strength gave you 17 energy easy, and with the rotation you just showed
quote:

Static-move-move-static
you could do it TWICE between heals(4 turn cooldown on FM), giving you enough to not only loop heals, but even have energy left over to do other things like EMP. Trust me, having played as both TLM ans CH during the war, static was FAR superior to reroute, pre-nerf.



Xx.Nemesis.xX -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 14:58:50)

I guess I should mention that static chargers used static with respectable strength or else they couldn't heal... Now people don't learn to just use reroute with high strength build? I know this was a bad era but think of it this way... Blood mage was better than tech mage... TM made people angry with op-ness,cyber hunter was allitle more powerful than balance... Does anybody notice that all 3 classes require varium? They are evolved classes for a reason but now blood mage has to have are build cause plasma cannon nerf, cyber hunter just is pitiful and tat nerf got a major nerf then a nerf just to be there... I mean on 1 point I understand but then I just find myself sayin a curse. This pleases some players but now even a fully enhanced varium user has trouble against starting classes *cough* bounty hunter*
This is just my opinion.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 15:22:09)

When they nerfed FM, they said it was a mistake they made to let it improve with support. They were wrong. Strength/dex/tech abusers obviously can't get the same amount of health back as a support abuser while having higher damage/defenses.



kingpowerlord -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 17:10:46)

I was a battling a techa abuse TM today who had 55-66 resistance and max technician. He 2 hit kod me even when I healed.



Steel Slayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 17:19:37)

I remember that fight, king :) that dude had a 100 damage plasma bolt! Good thing he only had like 50 health, but yeah, i wouldnt have belived it if i hadnt seen it.



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 19:02:07)

We have never balanced the classes and we probably never will first BH was OP then Tech mage was OP then Merc then it was Tactical Merc then it was blood mage and maybe it's CH turn agian we've never REALLY found balance and we never will really pointless making this theard it might help some what but over all not a bit.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 19:07:18)

Block Inst Working the way it need to. Triying 111 dex then +44 reflex and a smoke screen on Str bms but Most of the time i dont even get 1 block. So going back to tech again.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 19:10:09)

^Aren't you 5 focus right now Rayman? :P You only blocked me once in 3 battles And I blocked you once too :O And you had tons more DEX than me xD



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 19:11:41)

Yes im 5 focus. 50+61dex and 44 reflex+smoke+ max sa on bms and most of the time i dont do 1 block, So ill stop this dex thing and go to tech again.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 19:13:33)

IMO, DEX abuse is only good on Hunters since they can use Multi with it. But it's the hardest stat to abuse :P Most times it doesn't even work lol.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/2/2012 19:16:38)

Im not Even abussing Dex I need high dex to have decent def 31-38+1 Because it seems i need the Hybrids armors to Give much more war to the players.
Oh well if im not blocking is my luck i guess.



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