RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (Full Version)

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I Overlord I -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/28/2018 16:24:38)

FD builds are "left out" because they're more efficient than any other build (yes, even Poe mages). Taking 80% damage while dealing 90% as a baseline (even more with modern armors like Neko) technically makes them the most OP build even if it doesn't seem like it. It's just that most people don't like playing them because time = money and battles of attrition tend to get boring. Especially when there's only a 0.2% chance that you'll ever die.



Warren. -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/28/2018 16:32:25)

Alright

The solution is to release Warrior type items starting with armors and make it only useable for a character with 200 STR. The issue is simply Mages have more exclusive things going for them.
Many of their good items comes from needing INT. So simply release strong STR reliant things.
A Blood-Warrior's Armor skill should simply be reliant on the STR stat. So if you want optimal damage out of the "Blood-Warrior" armor your gonna need 200 STR for full effect. so:

1. Release a Blood-Warrior armor thats based off STR stat for absolute optimal usage.

2. Release a shield that has a 50 STR drive,

3. Release a misc that has a Quickcast conversion of paying SP to get HP, Similar to Pixel Ether but just a way for warriors to heal up quickcast by sp. I think this would be a great thing.


And if the Blood-Warrior goes well lets say the first element would be Fire Then release clones but different elements. Similar to the Blood-Mages.
Though for this idea to be actually effective the blood warrior has to be very strong, Otherwise nobody will use it. Also Put them In the UR GGB shops.

But at the end of the day I think mages in their state are truly fine. No modifications to mages are needed, only true exclusive support for STR based things which will make using a warrior more attractive is the way to go.



aq DarkKnight -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/28/2018 18:06:14)

quote:


1. Release a Blood-Warrior armor thats based off STR stat for absolute optimal usage.

2. Release a shield that has a 50 STR drive,

3. Release a misc that has a Quickcast conversion of paying SP to get HP, Similar to Pixel Ether but just a way for warriors to heal up quickcast by sp. I think this would be a great thing.

That's an excellent idea and a exceptional solution that I am sure that everyone could agree on, @Warren. I'll definitely vote on it to made it a reality. Now we need everyone to come together for another deliberation and then get @The Hollow's stamp of approval on it.[:)]



KingInTheNorth -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/28/2018 18:10:21)

I definitely like the sound of BW armors. Start with fire, and maybe call it Infernal Bloodberserker or something along those lines.



Shiba -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/28/2018 18:26:02)

What's the point of an SP>HP misc? The reason we all love Essence Orb is because we have a lot of extra HP that otherwise goes to waste. We *really* do not need an SP>HP misc. And even if it is helpful to some, it does nothing to fix the issue at hand.



Kilvakar -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/28/2018 19:46:21)

Just my two cents worth on this whole debate:

I agree with everyone saying that the builds should be different in their roles. It simply doesn't make any sense for every single build to be able to defeat an enemy in the same amount of time. Mages *should* be able to nuke faster than warriors, it just makes sense. Giving warriors the same nuking ability as Bloodmages would literally just make them the same build, just with better weapon damage and less utility from mana. I'm in complete agreement with Caecus and High Paladin that warriors are absolutely not useless, they're just not the preferred build for hardcore players who only care about how fast they can kill things and how many kills they get in wars and such.

I totally support the Blood Warrior armor idea, but I would hope that it increases weapon damage rather then providing an equivalent SP nuke.

The STR drive shield would be great.

More weapons like Thrale's Scorn, since the Bloodblades are already toggleable.

More unique items without toggles. Give us some more swords, hammers and axes without magic toggles, and release more staves, wands, tridents, etc. for mages without STR toggles. It would also be cool to see more ranged/melee toggles rather than melee/magic. This isn't really a GBI, but it would certainly alleviate the issue some people have with mage and warrior weapon inventories being too similar.

I really don't think that the stun/nuke strat needs to be nerfed/removed. Everyone can make use of it, not just mages. Even after Purple Rain, which can only be used once per battle, a warrior with high END could still use Essence Orb to get more stun-lock turns out of Shadowfeeder and Love Potion.

On the topic of warring, since I've heard it pointed out that pretty much all the top scores in wars go to mages, we could balance that out a bit by adding another effect to momentum where it also gives you some sort of STR bonus or a bigger damage bonus based on your STR. Yes, that would only favor warriors, but it might be a possibility to even the playing field when it comes to wars specifically. Since war contests are now a thing and wars are 1000% more competitive, this buff could make it so that warriors are able to compete in the rapid kills department, but only in that specific instance, and keep the difference between builds in the rest of the game.

And finally, on the subject of FD builds, they're not "weak," they just are meant to truly play as a tank, which is a style that most of the hardcore players don't favor. They should still get more items suited to their playstyle, so they can have a more varied inventory.



ruleandrew -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/29/2018 4:48:36)

Mage are relative weak against tank monsters while Warrior are relative strong against tank monsters.

One way to balance warrior and mage is to allow warrior and range players access to super strong melee weapons and super strong range weapons (deal 2 standard melee unit in one player turn). However the super strong melee weapons and super strong range weapons will drain the player health pool every player turn.

Drain amount: the player lose (45/11)% of the player base health point



Taeyang -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/29/2018 9:45:40)

quote:

Schedule is very tight for the rest of the year but I'll plan on making a Blood Warrior/Berseker type armor before the end of the year.


It's nice that the staff have decided to do that and we really appreciate it. As others have already mentioned, having more Melee/Ranged weapons that doesn't have a magic toggle and also a Strength/Dexterity shield would be a great addition in the future.

On the issue of balancing warriors and mages, I agree that the current builds should be kept as it is because it wouldn't make sense to make a Warrior deal the same damage as a Mage. That just loses the significance of having different builds in the game. Hopefully, the staff are able to release more items that doesn't necessarily cater to Warriors specifically, but for other builds in the game. I'm pretty sure all of this will take a long time considering the fact that the staff are incredibly busy so it is best if we could just wait and see.

The only issue that I have is with the number of wars that we've had recently. As Kilvakar have mentioned, in most, if not all the time, the top players are usually the mages. They clearly deal the most damage in the quickest time. The only way a Ranger, Beast Warrior, Warrior or a FD build would be able to compete/overtake them is to grind even more battles.(which not everyone have the time or patience to do so) The momentum was a great solution to do just that but having a damage buff or bonus based off your highest stat alongside the momentum would be able to level the playing field for most builds.



battlesiege15 -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/29/2018 14:52:03)

I haven't had time to read through this thread really but I agree the 20 turn model has become real whacky with these massive burst equipment for mages.

I think one of the biggest changes to this would be through the HP cost of these items. Right now, the damage is based on a flat HP cost but that's not best for all situations. Would it be possible to adjust the HP cost based on the damage you do? Say you deal 150% of expected spell damage because of all the boosts you have so you take 150% of the listed HP cost in compensation. But if you were to do less than expected damage, your HP would also be adjusted accordingly and won't be as high of a HP cost.

Or maybe make the HP cost more of a Backlash status that converts X% of damage you dealt into Harm damage instead of the listed standard HP cost.

Another solution for this could be to have the HP costs adjusted somehow based on END as well. A 151 HP cost for bloodmage armor won't be significant for a pure mage with 150 END. END as of now doesn't do much besides status rolls and max HP so adding a END component to base HP costs could be helpful.

As for magic skills, instead of a raised SP cost for the same damage, how about keep the same SP as for Warriors/Rangers but deal less damage instead of raising magic SP cost for the same damage. I can't remember if this has been done before but making magic SP skills cost 100% SP and deal 75% damage would technically be the same as 4/3*100% SP cost and 100% damage correct? This way, the INT boost combination from Poe/Celtic/etc won't be as significant on a lower base power skill. This is especially important because Essence Orb makes SP a negligible issue.

Of course, this would only be for future armor skills with magic toggles.
Also, as popular as the Bloodmage armors are, I do think that it's a little unfair having such powerful armors being available in many elements and in the end, all they are just simple reskins of the originaly Pyromancer Bloodmage. Like, I understand it saves the staff time with coding but the items lose their appeal really fast. And the same goes for weapons with Magic/Melee toggles. These weapons weren't as common before nowadays, it seems every kinda cool items have a magic toggle slapped onto it.

Also, the Magic toggle on mainly Melee weapons a free option for inventory for magi while Rangers are left behind.
One last thing, how about just adding new effects to monsters to make them more challenging/less prone to burst damage? A phone game I play added these things that are essentially shields of some kind that had effects such as preventing any heal damage, adding effects after each attack, and damage adjustments. Maybe similar things could be implemented like damage caps to monsters so they can't be burst damaged or a field effect that reduces Spell damage (rather than a cap, say -25% spell damage... Similar to a resistasnce misc item but for monsters), MP locks, etc.

These are all just some thoughts I came up with so sorry if the logic is flawed/incorrect.



Aura Knight -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 3:22:22)

Thinking on it a bit, I'm beginning to question as to whether there is such a huge gap between mages and warriors. I mean, yeah warriors rely on their SP a lot as opposed to mages who can use both SP and MP but at the same time, the skill cost for warriors seems to be a bit lower at least on certain armors which would allow sufficient SP for other upkeep costs. If we consider mage vs warrior assuming the subraces, vampire and werewolf play very similarly. The one major difference is that werewolf's fear strategy relies on a few pieces of the terror set which could be used to make the argument that warriors are not exactly F2P friendly as opposed to mages who don't need such items. Warrior builds have access to skills just as easily as mages. What they lack is an extra cushion that mages get from the intellect stat but that shouldn't be much of a problem. Warriors are not supposed to rely on intellect. If they did, they would be better off being called hybrids. Speed shouldn't be a huge issue for warriors unless damage from warrior build skills is weaker. And for this to be improved upon, just give warriors a bit more damage. Sounds simple to me. And if that's the case, it probably isn't so easy.



sleddyboy3 -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 4:34:40)

@Aura Knight: I would disagree, the skill cost difference is pretty negligible due to Essence Orb. Also, Warrior is definitely not F2P friendly, as the Dunamis and Thernda pets are locked behind $50 paywalls, and Poelala pet can be gotten in UR GGB. Considering this, there is no reason to play a build that costs significantly more real money, has no exclusive items (in the way that mage has Bloodmages, especially since all the new weapons coming out can swap between melee/ranged/magic versions), and does less burst damage in a meta where sustained damage is completely irrelevant. Due to insane power creep, no monster lives for longer than 2 or 3 turns, so warrior's previous strength (sustained damage) is now useless. Sorry, but times have changed; there's no reason to pay more for less efficiency. I don't think there is even a single warrior on the most recent war leaderboards...

EDIT: I take it back, looks like a lot of the top players for the previous war were warriors. However, I'd probably say the point about skill cost differences being irrelevant still stands, and the point about being super expensive still stands (I'm seeing a lot of premium items)

EDIT 2: Don't get me wrong, I love playing as a warrior, but it's super expensive if you truly want to be competitive.



Aura Knight -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 4:46:29)

Yeah mages do have things easier. It's no wonder they're so popular. Hopefully with this thread staff can get some nice ideas on how to make the proper changes to balance things out.



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 7:18:40)

Well let's make things simple:
BloodMages = Spells with Elecomp and +50% spell damage as Free effect
BloodWarriors = Not Spells (Normal attacks) with Elecomp (Ele-locked) and +100% melee damage as Blood Free effect , favors Warriors because Melee/Ranged weapons have more B/R

Doesn't make sense? I think it does,it is exactly the equivalent of a BloodMage armor but named Blood Warrior.
And as a cherry on top would like the Armor to be Earth since we lack strong Earth damage options!

As for Blood Warrior Weapons : I suggest a simple toggle for a STR-drive in Melee form and INT-drive in Magic form (Melee-Magic toggle because seems fair).



SkyingFleps -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 7:41:15)

Blood warrior (elelocked)
[skill] spend 125 hp for 5 str gain (name: Sacrifice)
[passive] the lower your hp the higher your damage (Blood rage)



123456aq -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 9:10:34)

I'm quite glad someone said it.... i mean atm mages get way way too much boost like blood spells are 3x melee add in poes and like 400 int and you kinda see the issue there is no reason to be anything other then a mage statistically because of how powerful the spells are for almost 0 cost and now that they will get their own buffalot which just makes 400 int way easier to obtain. i think boosters in general need to get capped at 250 mainstat because playerboosts are way more powerful then actual guest and pet stats. maybe just make blood spells not 3x melee because 3x3=9 2x5 is 10 which is basically why mages are superior as skills from warriors cant compare with mages before boosts as warriors only barely get past mages in 2 more turrns. My ideas are to: cap boosters max given boost at 250 mainstat statistics. Nerf all spell damage to 150% to make it alittle closer of a fight. Or just add blood things because putting a bandage on a stab wound is really gonna make a difference..... We've given mages too much leeway and let them get away with things we shouldnt have remember the pre buff AoS where it was complete garbage and everyone had a fit because of how useless it was? I understand that all the items are "balanced" seperately but I think having almost every monster instadie isnt exactly balanced... also yea id say a 5-10 turn model would be more fitting as thats how long fights take before the monster dies or the player dies because of off element attacks unless they stun it ahead of time. EDIT: also look at kindred that does like what 6x melee to just try to COMPETE but since mages can use it it just makes the gap even larger because instead of 1.4x now its like 7x so something that can outburst warrior and outsustain warrior and is cheaper and equipment is easier to find/not locked behind paywalls? why ever be anything else? EDIT2: all boosters in general should use CHA IMO so they cant get boosted by all these insane statboosts because cha boosts arent as many so it would be easier to balance



I Overlord I -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 9:43:03)

quote:

As for Blood Warrior Weapons : I suggest a simple toggle for a STR-drive in Melee form and INT-drive in Magic form (Melee-Magic toggle because seems fair).

wyd



Warren. -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 10:12:14)

quote:

BloodWarriors = Not Spells (Normal attacks) with Elecomp (Ele-locked) and +100% melee damage as Blood Free effect , favors Warriors because Melee/Ranged weapons have more B/R


Something like this sounds good.


quote:

Blood warrior (elelocked) [skill] spend 125 hp for 5 str gain (name: Sacrifice)


Also this idea is great



Thor -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 21:38:49)

Really like the idea above^


I think STR in general should do more damage as in being buffed.
Above 150 STR should give more SP. (Not that we need it but that will be a good way of also buffing them, giving STR something more)



Lineolata -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 23:02:28)

Yeah, I agree, it'd be a nice buff to mages. Snarl, eat terror, use STR drive, buffalot and a misc to get 200+ STR... and then more SP for mage shenanigans! Sounds great to me.



mr hehehe -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/30/2018 23:14:41)

It's strange how much people care for "time efficiency" in what's largely a single player game. In wars: the only arguably only competitive aspect centered around gameplay, the momentum system closes the damage per round difference between builds. In fact if you kill a mob in two rounds it would take largely the same amount of time to complete that encounter as it would to kill that mob in three rounds due to the delay the game server takes to save the results of that battle. When it's a single player game, why would it matter that choosing to play a certain build or a certain way would cause you to progress through the game slower than a different way? You're not really playing the game for anything other than enjoyment and you're not really committing effort towards any endeavors that produce a real-life product or benefit. It really seem arbitrary to compare ingame progress between different approaches to a largely single-player game, which by design doesn't and isn't able to offer many competitive outlets.

I think it is a good idea to introduce more warrior themed items, because unlike mages and even rangers there isn't really much equipment that form a coherent identity for warriors. There's a lot of equipment that reward you for casting spells, equipment that rewards you for using ranged equipment and 100% proc weapons as well as for using pets. The defining features of most warrior setups presently are 0 proc weapons + FO armors and sp nukes, combinations that can be effective with and are very frequently utilized by other builds.



roobee -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/31/2018 10:03:19)

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but another overpowered tactic mages have is that with omega astramorph and pixel ether they can refill their MP bar for cheap. First use up your MP. Then, use omega astramorph to make your MP bar tiny. Use pixel ether to fill it up. Then go back to your normal armor. I do not know of a similar tactic for warriors.



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/31/2018 10:20:47)

Today after some debate there was a good subject i came across.
Warriors reliant on weapon-based skills , versus Mages.
Soo, the weapon-based skills are their go-to sustained damage skill but the problem i see is that ele-comp goes into reduced SP cost.
How about an experiment with an Armor like this :

FO Lean, Armor skill: a Weapon-Based skill with Ele-Comp going into damage instead of reduced SP cost (possibly with a blood-effect for flavor)
It will make Warriors have more burst and compete with Mages to the point where the difference would just be because of Mages getting a MP bar (albeit very small but that is the flavor of Mages).



battlesiege15 -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/31/2018 10:55:22)

Weapon and spell based SP skills right now have options of either EleComp going into damage or into reducing SP cost.

Examples:
Damage EleComp- White Knight Z
SP EleComp- Headless Horseman



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/31/2018 11:44:01)

Since SP is not an issue anymore, EleComp for weapon-based skills can go into damage.
White Knight Z is not a weapon based skill because it does not apply weapon effects and it does not respect weapon's Special. It does have EleComp into damage and this is why the armor is very good.
The problem with White Knight Z is still the fact that Melee gets converted to Ranged (for Dunamis Warriors).

But releasing weapon based skills with Elecomp into Damage will favor Warriors in the end,more now that Essence Orb exists.
Or :

FO lean , Armor skill : Weapon-based skill with EleComp into reduced SP cost but with a bloodmage effect (for +100% melee) can be just as good, could be a candidate for a Blood Warrior armor.



Rayimika -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (8/31/2018 13:24:32)

The main issue here are two underpowered stats : Intellect, only use of which is guest upkeep, and endurance, having trained one the fight gets drawn out that long you end up taking more damage than health gained. My suggestion is split mana and magic damage between INT and Wisdom and combine SRT&END into one. I feel burst damage is underpowered in general, so how about spell-type skills elecomp would always assume FO and weapon-based to compell to double moglin boost 1.6 FD. Another issue is that CIT should always act as if you were in N so that divided by lean(and ramp up blocking).



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