RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (Full Version)

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J9408 -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/12/2019 19:41:50)

Years ago back when Assassin class was released, rogues were quite popular. I say the problem with Rogues is, there is not enough "DEX" specific equipment or classes.



Dreiko Shadrack -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/12/2019 19:58:42)

quote:

lol why do you think that rogues don't exist? Its one of the three choices when you first create your character. Its even one of the three classes you have to train before moving on to the other classes.


Literally already explained this in the previous page, about 3 posts ago.



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/12/2019 21:00:36)

Yes what you're explaining is a ranger, what WE'RE talking about is a rouge. Just because you don't understand the difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



I Overlord I -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/13/2019 3:20:48)

People already consider non-100% proc. rangers to be "warriors" for all intents and purposes, so why should a subset of them that specializes in short-range weapons like daggers be considered any different? At least "rangers" have the decency to use mid-range weapons like spears, lances, javelins, polearms, pikes, and flails. Aside from theme, there is very little separating "rogues" from traditional warriors. They even have the same stat distribution unless you max out LUK solely for RP purposes and similarly force your warrior to have a good amount of END at the cost of some DEX.



Dreiko Shadrack -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/13/2019 10:15:52)

The crux of that particular issue here is that some of us are talking about the state of the game at this moment while others are talking about things they'd want to have explored in the game from roleplaying conventions.

First we need to fix what we do have before we tackle what we'd like to see added upon, such as developing the Rogue archetype.



Dreiko Shadrack -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/14/2019 6:55:41)

quote:

What we are talking about the state of the game at this moment. There is virtually no difference except people can't seem to fathom the roguest playstyle. Which is another problem in of itself. As it stands, warriors still have work, but are relatively fine, where rogues, a basically forgotten concept, need that attention.


This is exactly my point here, the rogue playstyle does not exist in AQ at this moment, it may have been planned originally but along the way it was dropped or it morphed into a non-100% proc ranger. It's something that is less important to tackle than the issues faced with the playstyles that do exist at this moment in time.

You've already created your own GBI thread for this, let's stop usurping this one for this discussion, it's not the place for it.



I Overlord I -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/15/2019 6:03:39)

quote:

Like Mr. Uber said, just because you don't understand the difference, doesn't mean there is no difference.

I do understand, but way to be condescending and presumptuous. That will be sure to win people over. Lol

Silliness aside, "rogues" don't exist as anything more than basic rangers in accordance with AQ lore. Refer to the Rogue class, which was meant to be the pre-req for the proposed Ranger class. Just because you seemingly can't grasp that doesn't mean there needs to be a change (especially as the last few daggers released boost magic damage -- not ranged or melee). Archetype nipped in the bud.



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/15/2019 19:35:28)

quote:

I Overlord I said:
Refer to the Rogue class, which was meant to be the pre-req for the proposed Ranger class.

According you AQ lore is there a Ranger class? No; there is however, the ninja class and the assassin class which better fits into what we're describing. You bringing up classes only further supports our platform and invalidates your statement. If you did understand like you claim you wouldn't be trying to compare them to a nonexistent class. So I'd say his presumption was correct.



I Overlord I -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/15/2019 21:15:55)

"proposed"

I, too, struggle with rudimentary English.



Mr. Roguish -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/15/2019 23:50:22)

quote:

I, too, struggle with rudimentary English.

Way to be passive aggressive.

quote:

"proposed"

The simple fact is you're bringing up things that aren't relevant and trying to use it as a position for a rebuttal. You brought up AQ lore and mention something nothing more than "proposed", whereas you were given examples of what actually exists.

Look, this has gone way too far and is off topic from the point of this specific thread. I stated a point, recognized that it would be more efficient and effective if I created my own thread for discussion on this topic, so I did. Plenty of people actually understand and agree, there's no point in trying to convince just two people trying to tell me that I don't have and play a rouge character every week because the archetype doesn't exist. You can have the last word because I know you won't be able to sleep without it but I'm deleting all my other comments because I have my own thread for that information.



Incantatus -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/17/2019 3:26:30)

Warriors can no longer use Celtic Wheel for moonwalker's grace (due to new game engine update). yay to an even bigger gap now.



AliceShiki -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/17/2019 3:30:02)

@Above. Just use Celtic Wheel + Osiris misc then.



Branl -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/17/2019 9:19:58)

Why is Moonwalker's a MP only spell? Mages benefit the least from Dexterity. [&:]



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/17/2019 10:23:48)

quote:

Why is Moonwalker's a MP only spell? Mages benefit the least from Dexterity.


The same reason why Arcane Amplification is a SP spell, to bait Warriors into using it since is SP but it grants no mana, further extending the gap between Warriors and Mages.
On a serious note: probably because Warriors had enough Base Mana back then when it got released.



roobee -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/17/2019 12:54:07)

Here is a list of some warrior exclusive items, which I thought might be helpful info when considering how to balance warriors and mages.

katar of earth deals sp damage
katar of water deals mp damage
magnablade greatly boosts damage
carnafex visage: str+dex misc
zardade: omni-element defensive misc + str boost
vitae thirster: element seek sword, including harm
giant killer: normal player boost against str>0 enemies
witchwaster: normal player boost against int>0 enemies
kusanagi sword: autohit normal player attacks
thrale’s scorn: massive normal player boost



Andlu -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/17/2019 14:02:06)

quote:

Why is Moonwalker's a MP only spell? Mages benefit the least from Dexterity.


Because it was a suggestion item, and the original poster suggested it to be a quickcast spell that granted DEX while costing mana



RMC -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/17/2019 15:27:10)

Since the other thread got locked i'll just post my reply here
quote:

That's mostly outside of the point of what you'd wanna do or not. If you stack stuff like poelala, blood contract and everything that provides *4/3, mages do as much damage as warriors in auto attacks, and still have a higher burst due to spells. Which then you could just swap to grakma which gives a full 1.21 boost to spells, without halving it, making mages even more broken

That's only an issue because of multiplicative damage boosters which allows the *4/3 boosts to stack with each other when they're not supposed to. Unless multiplicative boosters get adressed, which seems very unlikely given the recent patch notes, there will always be imbalance between warriors and mages.



Andlu -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (1/17/2019 16:20:31)

That's why we're even trying to get CIT nerfed. Having *4/3 is just broken with the current strats, making it so that the only thing mages have worse than warriors is higher SP cost which also gets completely ignored with essence orb



aq DarkKnight -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (2/12/2019 16:54:17)

^Like how Mage have a 50 INT-drive shield call Celtic Wheel, we will need a 50 STR-drive shield equivalent for Warrior so they do not fall behind. This has already been discussed on page 2. Thus if CiT shield ever gets nerf, we should get a replacement for it, even though it wouldn't be CiT anymore. Otherwise, that would slightly weaken the Warrior builds. As of now, Warriors and Mages are one of the three strongest builds as well as equal in versatility in the game.



Noremak Soothsayer -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (2/17/2019 15:23:17)

Alright, I'll bite.
The Dex problem has been talked to death so I'll try to skip it. A warrior and a rogue are the same build 200str/200dex/200luck. (I lied. I hate it.) I'd love to be a crafty rogue but daggers and rapiers don't scale with dex. Also, I refuse to use 100% proc weapons because I can't use armor skills, further exacerbating the problem for me. Fix: make dex more damaging and give STR a bonus to blocking? (I'd say it takes strength to use a shield.)

Also, level scaling class armors need to be a thing. The system is perfect with subraces right now. You can get the scaled armors but only if you're that subrace, making player choice all that more important. Why put it all that time and effort animating the classes if you're just going to out level it? This is why I hate reaching lvl 90-100. I wish I could level lock my character to 75 just for that reason. Defining your character and how they do things are the heart of RPG's and must be brought to the fore front. In the same vein, the moral compass needs to be brought back. Fix: Scale class armors and more morality quests. (And maybe just let me level lock my character so I can experience the joys of early to mid game with all the awesome class armors so noone has to do any work. I'm okay with never leveling up again.)

The moonwalker MP spell is an awesome spell. The issue is that hybridization is a terrible idea due to a lack of equipment. If there were more support spells (i.e. spells that boost a stat or defense rather to directly do damage damage) and items (e.g. a sword with a sustained buff to damage for MP), hybridization would be more viable. Until then, a magic archer/mystic knight/shadowblade don't exist yet. (Just thought of another idea: an invisibility spell that can only be used before the battle starts during the prep phase for initiative and BTH for the first turn.) Fix: new items, even if just copy and pasted old armor skills with no or minimal animations.

Similarly, to boost build variety, we need items with different damage equations. For example, ranged weapons use STR/10 + DEX/40 + LUK*3/80. Why not make some weapons use STR/10 + INT/40 + LUK*3/80 or CHA/10 + DEX/40 + LUK*3/80? Heck, you could probably make a weapon scale with END (idea: the mace of healthy life choices) or weapons with reduced scaling but higher base damage just to boost interest in defensive or alternative play styles. Even better, make a dex weapons scale more with dex with lower base damage. Fix: probably could just swap out numbers of existing weapons to save time while creating new weapons.



AliceShiki -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (2/17/2019 15:56:17)

@Noremak Soothsayer Mmmmmmmm, I think you missed some information staff provided in recent months, so I'll try clarifying some things~

1) Stats are going to go a heavy overhaul in the next months (no ETA atm, but expect it this year at the very least), warriors and rangers probably won't be the same anymore, and DEX will become a mostly defensive + initiative stat, instead of the "one stat to rule them all" like it is rn.

2) Plans for future class armors are to have them scale all the way to lv 150, next in queue are Paladin and Necromancer, but the other classes should be revamped to scale too in due time.

3) We already have a few weapons that use different stats for damage. Werepyre subrace weapons use STR/INT/LUK instead of STR/DEX/LUK. Lyre of Lyrics uses CHA/DEX/LUK instead of INT/DEX/LUK.
They aren't many, but they definitely do exist.



Noremak Soothsayer -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (2/17/2019 16:54:39)

@AliceShiki I've been away for a while. Thanks.

1. Hmm, not sure if I dig that. Sounds like rogues becoming warriors if dex becomes pure defense.
2. Oh yes. So glad these are in progress. Classes and proc on monster type are my favorite things about this game. If I could solely hunt undead, I would.
3. I actually didn't know about the werepyre weapons (like said, left for a while) but that's awesome. We need more. Alot more. The damage calculation should be in the item description for how varied it should be. We have way too many generic items and that's why mass fixes are being implemented.



AliceShiki -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (2/17/2019 17:56:07)

quote:

1. Hmm, not sure if I dig that. Sounds like rogues becoming warriors if dex becomes pure defense.

Staff is being highly transparent about their intentions towards the future of the game right now. If you think you don't agree with everything they're planning, I highly suggest checking This Thread out and voicing your opinion on it~
quote:

If I could solely hunt undead, I would.

You actually can! For meager 6000 tokens you can buy your one and only shiny Ebony Sepulchure Form that will make all your foes undeads that tremble before your holy might! Order now and get a discount of... Well, nothing, but you can still get it! xD
quote:

I actually didn't know about the werepyre weapons (like said, left for a while) but that's awesome. We need more. Alot more. The damage calculation should be in the item description for how varied it should be. We have way too many generic items and that's why mass fixes are being implemented.

I'd like more weapons that change MainStat for CHA for sure, but those are honestly not that popular, so I don't have much hopes for it...

Damage calculation in description is very unlikely to ever happen, staff tends to avoid putting too many numbers visible in-game, probably not to overwhelm new players~

Forums are there to help you though! ^^)/



Kaelin -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (2/18/2019 1:59:48)

To clarify a point, DEX will be coming off of Melee and Magic attacks, but it'll still be properly present on Ranged weapons. With the plans we have, Ranged weapons only carrying DEX will at least do slightly better than they do now, and you'll get an indirect damage boost through extra Initiative as well. There are things we'll still need to figure out with Rogue class, but I hope our changes can support high-DEX users whether or not they also train STR.



Kilvakar -> RE: Balancing Warrior and Mage (2/18/2019 19:57:26)

It really sounds like once all the craziness of the recent updates gets ironed out, STR, INT and DEX builds will all be distinct and non-100% proc ranged weapons will be quite useful, as they won't require STR anymore. So that should theoretically mean that rogue builds using ranged-type melee weapons will definitely be able to deal damage, although maybe not quite as much as a pure warrior, while still having that extra defense and initiative that gives them more of that rogue feel.

As for the mage/warrior balance talk, I really don't think that warriors should be dealing the same amount of damage as mages. I mean, the whole classic difference between warrior/mage/rogue is that that mages are supposed to be glass cannons, warriors are supposed to be tankier, and rogues are kind of the "middle ground" between the two. The fact that a lot of (though not all) warrior players seem to think that the game is unbalanced if they can't do as much damage hitting something with a sword as a mage can by dropping a meteor on it honestly seems a little strange.

But on the matter of SP nukes, I do agree that those should be equally as powerful as magic nukes. And yes, a STR drive shield would be awesome. I do think that we're seeing some more good warrior items coming out lately, especially stuff like bloodzerker. I also think that after the stat change mess get fixed, we should see a lot more balance between the three builds. (At least for pure builds. Hybrids and Beastmasters are currently screwed, and we'll have to see what is done to fix that in the future)



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