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12/29/2012 12:45:31

Steel Slayer
Member

One of the things the devs are talking about in Omega is making the game more stat based and less luck based. Here's a suggestion on one way to help do that-remove the caps on blocks, deflects, and crits. Currently, the lowest your block(and deflect) chance can go is 2%, pretty sure its 1% for crits. WHY?!? What sense does it make that some1 who has been smoked down to 15 dexterity can block some1 with over 100? Why should a strength BM have any chance to crit a support merc? The whole point of stacking these stats is to have an advantage, the lower-end caps bring a HUGELY undesireable luck element into the game. I suggest leaving the scaling where its at for blocks and deflects, just get rid of bottom end caps and let stats drop chance to 0% if thats where the stats bring it. I'm ok with Shadow Arts giving a minimum block chance, since skill points are invested in it, would be bad to see that comletely wasted.
Also, there has been talk of doing something to make support a little more worthwhile, how about this, change scaling on crits from 7 to 6 points of support, and remove the 20% cap on crits(no biggie there-even at 6 point scaling, you'd need a 96 point support advantage to hit the cap, dont see that very often), and get rid of the bottom end cap for crits too while we're at it. Another thing to try would be let support increase stun chance, instead of only being able to decrease it. Why not? Stuns are rarely even tried, since they very seldom work, and NOONE bases a build on them. If support could actually increase stun chance, maybe that would change. None of the stun moves right now do very much damage without huge investment in stats, and none of their damage scales with support, so you would have to be choosing between damage and stun chance.
My point here is, capping chances=luck, just letting the stats decide would be better. I wouldnt support getting rid of blocks/deflects/crits altogether, then everyone would just run strength builds.

Epic

Post #: 1

12/29/2012 12:46:50

J.U.S.T.I.C.E.
Member

Not supported. hence the reasons of Builds creativity

AQW

Epic

Post #: 2

12/29/2012 12:47:09

ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!

The caps are there to prevent abuse of stats. You can't win against a BH if he blocks every single one of your moves because he has 140+ dex while you're Smoked.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 3

12/29/2012 13:01:57

Mother1
Member

Not supported this only promotes stat abuse big time. I would rather have a game that is luck based with planning that I can win rather then a game with no luck and can't win due to stat abuse.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 12/29/2012 13:06:15 >

Epic

Post #: 4

12/29/2012 13:03:50

Stabilis
Member

ND,

Maybe it does not have to be that way. The 15 Dexterity should NOT block, at the same time the 150 Dexterity should NOT block absolutely.

But honestly speaking, I believe that anything is possible, but I do not believe in condemning reason for the example of some guy in a thick smoke with terrible reflexes coincidentally being able to turn around and block some guy's punch with his own arms every 1 out of 100 times. Which is why 0 out of 100 is more reasonable because 1 out of 100 is actually common from an experimental point of view... something that can be worked with. And... run-on sentence.

What I would actually consider is the % of occurrence being:

n E Q/ 0 < n < 1

(n is an element of rational numbers such that n is between but not equal to 0 and 1 (%)).

Fixed: I do NOT believe in condemning reason. Lol condemning reason.

Edit: Stupid phone keyboard I just made about 10 edits to this post.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 12/29/2012 13:11:14 >

Epic

Post #: 5

12/29/2012 13:49:10

Steel Slayer
Member

Guys, im mainly talking about the LOWER END caps here, the minimum 2%block/deflect chance, and the 1% crit chance. Guess i could have been more specific there. The top end caps could stay if you want, please read the whole post before you react to it.

Epic

Post #: 6

12/29/2012 13:54:34

Mother1
Member

It still promotes stat abuse with the classes who have debuffs that can malf and smoke you. You know those high support CH and TM with Malf, and tech BH with smoke? I have seen minus 50 done to people as well as myself with Malf and smoke, and removing these would OP those kinds of builds more so tech BH then support CH and TM. You get hit with a hard enough smokescreen and boom you have no chance to block. This will be devatstating in one vs one and even worse in two vs two. Especially if you that BH partner is a offensive build.

Epic

Post #: 7

12/29/2012 14:09:22

Steel Slayer
Member

Mother1, thats exactly the point. If some1 is in a strength abuse build, why should they still have that 2% block chance? Especially if they are smoked? Half the point of smoking your opponent is to have less chance to be blocked-thats called strategy. I'm sure you know, losing a fight because some1 got UNBELIVEABLY LUCKY when they had no business doing so HURTS. If I lose to some1 else's strategy, I can always come up with a better plan next time, but you cant plan on luck.

Epic

Post #: 8

12/29/2012 14:27:50

Mother1
Member

@ steel slayer

Are you listening to yourself right now? Strength is extremely OP right now and you want to buff them by removing mins? Your idea will be a nerf to all builds other then strength. Also explain to me why we have dex, tech, focus, and support builds?

Dex builds work there plans with Blocks which is luck
Tech builds work with Deflections which is luck
Support make these builds to rely on crits which is luck
Focus is a mix of all three

Also have you ever heard of underdog players? You know those players who are overpowered by a person's build but somehow come out on top? You will be destroying those players because of this. The reason the mins were put there so that debuffs such as smoke and malf wouldn't be OP. Removing them with Overpower these debuffs.

Remember when Str BM was extremely OP? What happened then? half of the community jumped to that OP class to get easy wins against the masses. Was the game any fun for those who weren't a Str abuse BM no it wasn't in the least. That is what will happen if they remove mins. Everyone will just jump to a class with a debuff, power it up enough to get rid of your chance to block or deflect, and destroy you. It will become be a BH, CH, or TM with this kind of build or die.

Epic

Post #: 9

12/29/2012 14:45:31

Steel Slayer
Member

quote:

@ steel slayer

Are you listening to yourself right now? Strength is extremely OP right now and you want to buff them by removing mins? Your idea will be a nerf to all builds other then strength. Also explain to me why we have dex, tech, focus, and support builds?

Um, mother1, how would this make Str builds OP? They would never block deflect or crit. Thats the point. If you dont put points in dex, you dont block.

quote:

Also have you ever heard of underdog players? You know those players who are overpowered by a person's build but somehow come out on top? You will be destroying those players because of this. The reason the mins were put there so that debuffs such as smoke and malf wouldn't be OP. Removing them with Overpower these debuffs.

Exactly. If my build and/or strategy are better, and I lose because of luck, how fun is that? It isnt. Yes, this means sometimes I will lose to people who have a better build, but thats ok, I can learn from that and get better. There is nothing to learn from getting blocked 3 times in a row by some1 with 10 dex. The debuffs are hardly overpowered, you can counter them with a buff of your own, bot them off, or both. Strategy.

Also, with Omega, enhancements are going away. So, bye bye stat abuse.

Epic	Post #: 10

12/29/2012 15:20:08

Mother1
Member

@ steel slayer

Blocks, deflects, and crits have happened before with strength builds. I know this because they have done it to me before. Also even without extra stats how do you know there won't be abuse? You can say that since you don't even know it.

Plus I have to ask you how is it fair that a strength abuse build (which is the most brainless of all the builds) win against all the other builds? Right now balance is a mess due to all the nerfs to all but strength and focus builds. So why buff an overpowered build even more?

next I have to ask you how do you know that extra stats will be gone completely? Yes we know all items will be the same power wise, but how do you know that enhancements are going to be gone. All they said was that we would be compensated for them and they never said how they were going to do it. For we know we may get enhancements for free for a few items. We should wait and see what they are planning on doing before this happens.

Epic	Post #: 11

12/29/2012 15:33:27

Steel Slayer
Member

quote:

@ steel slayer

Blocks, deflects, and crits have happened before with strength builds. I know this because they have done it to me before.

I know, thats my point, the minimum caps are what let them do this. THAT is what I am proposing be removed.

quote:

Plus I have to ask you how is it fair that a strength abuse build (which is the most brainless of all the builds) win against all the other builds? Right now balance is a mess due to all the nerfs to all but strength and focus builds. So why buff an overpowered build even more?

Again i hafta ask, how is this a buff to strength builds? The whole point of this idea is exactly what you are saying, STR builds are OP, this would nerf them.

quote:

next I have to ask you how do you know that extra stats will be gone completely? Yes we know all items will be the same power wise, but how do you know that enhancements are going to be gone. All they said was that we would be compensated for them and they never said how they were going to do it. For we know we may get enhancements for free for a few items. We should wait and see what they are planning on doing before this happens

OK, you got me here, i dont know that all the points from enhancements will go away, that was an assumtion on my part.

Epic	Post #: 12

12/29/2012 15:49:00

Mother1
Member

@ steel slayer

Near then end of the infernal war I used the strength abuse BM build which had 110 strength altogether, while keeping it at level 4 focus meaning I had enough dex, tech, and support to be above the needed requirements for mins to stay in. Your idea of removing them wouldn't hurt builds that work with both of these together.

While I used this one on mechachilds to try and get the final war cheevo, it still works to the point where I could block, deflect, and crit since I left enough in these other stats to be able the mins. Builds like my old one would get buffed.

But I have to also ask what about the lower levels who have fewer stats then the higher levels? Any higher level player would be able to mop the floor with them and it wouldn't be because of stat abuse either but a lack of stats.

Epic	Post #: 13

12/30/2012 15:30:19

Kellykatherine
Member

Supported, but with much lessened change; e.g. 1% --> .5%

@depressed void

I feel like you make a very good point about even something out of reason having a slight chance of occurence.

And while 1% seems low to talk about, in battle, these occurences somehow happens MUCH more than 1%. I have honestly had lvl 30s with 3-4 dex left after I smoked them blocking 3 times in a row, which is by calculation, 1 in 1,000,000. Now tell me, how do they do that and yet i've never seen anyone with the 1 in 1,000,000 rare battle achievement to this day? Now of course I have no access to the game's codes, but I feel like something is very quirky sometimes.

@mother1

and be honest with me: does anyone like underdogs THAT much in games? in real life, we do like a good underdog story every once in a while; that's why slumdog millionaire did so well in the box office and stuff, but in game, underdogs winning all the time is just no fun.

I feel like this is just a case of how you define 'stat abuse'; inevitably, some games are more luck based while others are more stat based, probably with the two extremes being something like aqw vs something like starcraft (in which every round you start over and the only difference between players is their own experience). Clearly you see a difference between the audiences; young children vs 20 year old men, and Epicduel tries to maintain a balance between these two extremes, which I commend them for. However, I have noticed here, and in many other places, you seem to be quite conservative when it comes to changing the game system, and while large changes are obviously unbalancing, a small tweak here and there will always be necessary to make progress. So while you are definitely someone I greatly respect and you help keep the forums in check quite often, perhaps open up a little and give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism for future suggestions rather than outright 'not supported'.

Epic

Post #: 14

12/30/2012 16:07:53

Mother1
Member

@ kellykatherine

in this thread I did stat why I didn't like the idea. The game is already unbalanced enough as it is, and I also seen the effects of extreme debuff builds. they are quite devastating and removing Min would not only be a buff to these builds but the OP strength builds that are running around right now. Removing mins is like removing hope for any lower level to win against a higher level especially if said higher level is a full varium player and the lower level is non varium. Do you think it is fun for non variums to keep being the punching bags to varium players just because varium players have more stats then them? Even the best planner in this game would lose if they are outmatched by power.

If things were completely balanced between builds I would be more open to supporting removing mins which I said in an earlier post. However as it is now I can't support it because the this idea the brainless OP strength build (since mins help keep them in balance) and it would make lower levels who can recover from a strong smoke or malf even bigger punching bags. While the point of these debuffs is to make them less likely to block and deflect they aren't they to completely take away the chance of doing so which is what OP is suggesting with removing mins.

Also underdogs don't win all the time. if they did they wouldn't be underdogs would they?

@ Steel slayer

Your idea would nerf strength builds because they wouldn't be able to crit maybe, but it would nerf other builds worse. while extreme strength builds use a lot of strength they still have enough of the other stats to get some block, and deflections in even if it is low due to the way their items stats are played.

Plus I would have to ask what about the hunter class? As long as they have shadow arts even if you removed mins from the rest they would always have the chance to block even if their dex was reduce to the point were they had none. It wouldn't be balanced in the least.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 12/30/2012 16:14:22 >

Epic	Post #: 15

1/1/2013 20:14:20

Steel Slayer
Member

Seems like youre a little confused on how block deflect and crit chance works, Mother1. I see this alot, so I'll explain this real quick. The chance on these is RELATIVE, meaning that it doesnt matter how much of a stat you have, all that matters is how much more or less than the other player you have. Even if you have 150 dex, if the person you are attacking has more, he will have a higher chance to block you, and you will have a lower chance to block him. Works the same for deflects and crits. Which is why this wouldnt buff strength builds in any way, since to get all that strength, they have to have less dex/tech/support. Here is a link to the Battle Mechanics page on the wiki, which is my source for this info, and has all the formulas for how this stuff works. On the shadow arts thing, that chance should stay and be a minimum IMO, since its a skill, points are invested in it, and that should not be taken away. On a separate note devs, we should get a link to the wiki put into the game somewhere, maybe at the bottom of the screen where the links to the ED homepage and these forums are? Gonna go make a separate thread on that, to make sure it gets spotted.

Epic	Post #: 16

1/1/2013 22:05:53

Mother1
Member

@ steel slayer

I am not responding to your previous post but to an older post

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=20993730

Take a look at the last post made my Lycus in that thread. While I know you want mins to be removed because you feel that people who have been smoked hard enough shouldn't block, people who have lost enough tech shouldn't deflect Etc, this would hurt lower level players who go against higher levels. You know the ones who are at a level disadvantage against higher levels. They already have a stat disadvantage and for them to always lose because "I have the better build so I should always win" or "I smoke them they shouldn't be able to block" isn't in the least fair to them.

Removing mins is like removing a part of luck, and while some people hate luck "The more competitive to over competitive players" because it cause them to lose, for the rest of us it would suck the fun out of the game. We already have people running away from Jugs because then know they have no chance to win. Heck I have had some lower levels run away from me because they knew they couldn't win. Removing mins will only cause this to increase even more because it would be putting these players at an even greater disadvantage. If we are on the same level and have the same number of stats or close to it, then it is one thing. But for someone who has less and is at a disadvantage is another.

Here is the piece of lycus quote that is relevent to what I am talking about

quote:

Luck, a game you can predict everything that happens is an incredibly boring game. Yes, maybe there are changes we can make to make things a bit fairer (as said above a lot of things balance wise are being changed which may also impact this a lot). However at the same time, I am sure a lot of people would agree that with better builds you get better win rates, why is that relevant? Well, if better builds get better win rates, then that means that skill does have a big impact on how many wins you have. The thing is, if you went against an opponent much lower in level than you, you have higher stats, that guy should automatically lose the fight if no luck was involved? Yes skill may play a part, but to win over a large level difference you need a little luck. For anyone who plays Call of Duty, luck plays a massive part in that aswell, if you run out of a building at exactly the right time as an enemy runs past, you get an easy kill with minimal skill, all down to you just being in the right place at the right time.

Luck plays a part of everything, and the thing is the human brain will naturally pick up the times that you are unlucky and hard done by instead of those times you are 'lucky' because you take that for granted. With builds if you have a high dex build with Shadow Arts and you block a few times in a battle you will take it for granted, even if it happens 3 battles in a row without you being blocked. However when you go into the next battle and get blocked twice, and you then loose the battle, that's a completely different story and you notice it and will be angry about it. Despite the fact you have blocked 3 times to 1 ratio wise over the course of those 4 battles. You will always look at it in a negative light, not because your a negative person, but because you are human. Yes, there may be some issues with the current system, but all this also plays a big part.

Now as he said for a person who is a lower level then you they will need a bit of luck to win. Luck comes in many forms most of which are blocks, deflections, crits, and stuns. Your idea of removing mins to make the game stat based and skill based will only make it harder on these lower levels who are trying to compete. While in omega things will be some what different, as of right now many lower level who are fighting higher levels are dealing with not only a player with more stats then then naturally, but they may also be dealing with someone who has extra stats from enhancements to top it all off. So that right there is saying "I am already at an overwelming disadvantage this is going to be nearly impossible for me to win" If mins go it will be "I am at a huge disadvantage and if I were to get smoked or Malfed hard enough I am screwed."

I know you and many other players don't like the idea of mins since it supports the one in a million chance that you might get unlucky and the lower level might beat you. However try to look at it from the other person's perspective. Because I know if they removed these and many of your opponents began running because they knew they didn't stand a chance, eventually you it would get boring because of this.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 1/1/2013 22:06:18 >

Epic	Post #: 17

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