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Would we have more players if we increase wins?

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12/28/2013 10:21:03   
Scyze
Member

edwardvulture has already created a similar thread about this. Would we have more players if we omit loses?
So this made me think: would we see more players if we almost had free wins? I'm talking about NPCs, a lot of people quit because NPCs didn't count towards your battle records.

Don't bring up anything to do with pay to win or someone being sad by only challenging NPCs in the past. Other than that, please discuss as I want to hear your opinions on this.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
12/28/2013 10:48:36   
Variation
Member
 

 I'm sure we'd get more old players back but I don't see the developers going backwards and making them count towards your record again. One thing that I really think would help this game is if they allowed npcs to give exp past level 10. This way you don't have to be a punching bag. You can npc your way to the max level and then start worrying about pvp.
Post #: 2
12/28/2013 10:55:14   
Scyze
Member

@Variation,
I have thought of that idea in the past but I don't think it's smart after Level 10; it's a bit too early at that level and it should be higher. I think that once you've reached Level 25 you should gain Experience but not the same amount as you would normally. The main reason why I never suggested that was because I thought that we would see players with very few battles being Level 36 (max at the time). If you make the players battle until a certain level it should be fine, IMO.


< Message edited by Scyze -- 12/29/2013 14:35:30 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
12/28/2013 11:01:28   
Variation
Member
 

 ^Yeah good point.
Post #: 4
12/29/2013 1:31:57   
Drianx
Member

All I can say is that I would return.
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
12/29/2013 1:55:52   
Mother1
Member

I know the players who left because of NPC win being removed from their records might return. But still at the same time though balance from the day when delta ended up to now has changed vastly, and a lot of the things they used in delta may not work now.

So all I can say is maybe at best
Epic  Post #: 6
12/29/2013 2:11:04   
GearzHeadz
Member

Increasing wins could mean a multiple of things. Increasing ways to win, or increasing rewards from winning. Another way to increase to value on a win is for drops. It doesn't have to be weapon drops, but it could be like gem drops from some of the bosses do. Just getting one of those on occasion could be enough to make someone happier.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
12/29/2013 14:35:51   
Goony
Constructive!


 In the latest livestream Epicduel Artists - Livestream, Charfade mentioned that the developers were reviewing the role of NPC's with the view to including them in the game to count as wins again.

In my opinion, the only way this could work is to have NPC's that randomly joined the 1v1, 2v2 or Juggernaught pool. I know from my time testing that NPC's can rage and it would be interesting if these "special" NPC's were limited to "X" amount of battles per hour versus "X" player. The whole idea of them would be to create base models for each class that spawned at the same level as the player.

These should be slightly weaker than players and could be scattered throughout the map so that they could be challenged to give players a way to test builds and perhaps be used as a "trainer/tester"
Epic  Post #: 8
12/29/2013 14:40:31   
Mother1
Member

@ goony

I actually suggested something like that sometime ago. If it does go through another of my suggestions will come into the game
Epic  Post #: 9
12/29/2013 14:43:25   
Scyze
Member

I really liked how the Infernal War was supposed to be played and I would love to see more events like that in the future. The main thing I liked was that you could do battles and end up having an NPC as your partner or your opponent. It would be great to see this being added, back, to EpicDuel and the limitation will make it non-abusable.

< Message edited by Scyze -- 12/29/2013 14:51:40 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
12/29/2013 14:55:01   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 A few things that could be done to improve this and attract more younger and newer players would be to have NPC fights count for EXP up to for example 5 levels below max level.
But have NPC battles give less EXP then a PvP fight.
That way, newer players can if they want train up to a decent level and then go for the top fighters through sheer PvP.

Then have a pool of NPC characters for 2vs2 and Juggernaut (1 vs 1 makes little sense to count for PvP)
That way, more balanced fights are possible. Make them of equal strength as a player considering a player always will have the brain power to overcome NPC strategies.

Less waiting time and more balanced fights with more wins. You shouldn't aim for 80% wins unless you are truly stronger then the rest.

Wins alone don't measure how strong you are but also how frequent you play.if I fight 5 times and win 4 out of 5. I have 80% yet when someone fights a 1000 times, and wins 700 times, he only has 70% Yet I find winning 700 times more impressive regardless of the %

This will not fix balance in itself but would give a solution to unbalanced fights that occur quite a few ties.

I would not try to stay stuck in the past for this will not fix the game. Rather move forward and try to use innovative ideas to balance things out and attract more players.
Wins and losses are nothing compared to the fun people have to have. Overpowering a person means nothing to me compared to having a good fight with a lot of tactical thinking and cooperative teamwork but ending up with a loss.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 11
12/29/2013 15:19:11   
edwardvulture
Member

This might make even less players press 1 on 1 or 2 on 2...
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 12
12/29/2013 15:43:21   
Scyze
Member

Knowing that it's not always going to be PvP all the time, it counts as a break from PvP. Yes it might make people press the button less but won't losing make it the same?

< Message edited by Scyze -- 12/29/2013 15:44:07 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
12/29/2013 15:44:39   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 Care to explain your point edwardvulture?
The way I see it you have more balanced fights which is something I have seen a lot of complaints about.
And those interested only in more difficult fights just train until through NPC untill 35 (for this example) and then PvP their way up.
PvP should of course still offer more EXP then NPC fights to still make that more interesting.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 14
12/29/2013 15:56:13   
edwardvulture
Member

@Therril Oreb: I did suggest removing loses on your record (along with battle counts,link on the first post), but I don't really get the the bad in where if loses aren't kept track of, you lose, it doesn't go on your record. And you still get exp and creds. I don't get the arguments against that. Winning against NPC's is just as big or perhaps even bigger as an illusion as having loses not go toward your record. After all, this is a PvP game.

@Scyce: But if loses aren't kept track of. There is essentially nothing to lose. Losing becomes a temporary setback and wouldn't discourage players from playing anymore.

< Message edited by edwardvulture -- 12/29/2013 15:57:48 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 15
12/29/2013 16:02:21   
Mother1
Member

@ edward

While I myself am not for returning NPC, you have to remember players like to win and not lose. NPC believe it or not were punching bags for some players who knew their builds, and could grant easy wins for most.

Not only that but for some it was an escape from bad balance that cause PVP to be less fun for many.

When they removed NPC wins people not only lost their escape from bad balance, but are now at the mercy of the flavor of the week builds that work best with the bad balance. As a result of this many players left.

Now there are either 2 choices

1 Give the game a jenny jones make over (meaning rewrite how the game works from robot specials, to the simple strike) which would take a ton of time and effort,

2 Put NPC back into the mix giving back the original escape some players had while they take the time to fix balance issues without losing more players.
Epic  Post #: 16
12/29/2013 16:09:54   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 An easy way to solve this is to have a seperate counter for NPC wins.
People won't complain that some people got their general win/lose ratio through NPC but without proof and those that treasure the NPC wins can still have it count.
You can have a leaderboard over the amount of wins over certain challenge NPC's that are stronger then average NPC's to increase the fun.

PvP can be achieved through different ways :)
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 17
12/29/2013 16:22:17   
edwardvulture
Member

Relating to my topic:
Remember that quote that G00NY used to have by his sig or something?

I think it went something like this but I'm paraphrasing:
If doesn't matter if you win or lose, as long as you have the courage to get back again.

Removing loses would cause players to keep fighting without a second thought.

@mother1: Anyways, I think I have the counter-argument to your argument on my suggestion page.

Relating to this topic:
I've been playing since beta. I would have been playing in alpha but I had no idea that this game existed before the AE merge. I have to say, battling NPC's is monotonous even if it showed off as wins on your record. It was the easiest way to farm for exp and creds. Right now, I'll just say that I think about 1/3 to 1/2 of my wins are from NPC's(big stretch because I really don't remember). Everyone did NPC's. Every varium player, every free player from every level range. Why? Because it was a guaranteed win. Logically an NPC win does not equal a Pvp win. To be honest, I think it was right of the developers to have npcs not count as wins even though balance was far from perfect. What they are a source of now, is credits. This will allow people who does not have cores to hold off on real fighting until they have all their core slots filled, this giving some kind of level playing field. It would be logical that NPC's don't give exp because when we fight them, you use a pattern and repetition does not even come close to all the different tactics one has to think of in a regular Pvp fight.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 18
12/29/2013 16:28:55   
Drianx
Member

The way you put it guys makes it look like only unskilled players were angry because of NPC wins removal, when in fact it was the other way around.
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
12/29/2013 16:42:44   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 It has very little to do with who opposed the removal of NPC wins. i don't see a reason to count NPC wins since once you figure an NPC out, you can easily win over it.
But ED is a turn based combat game so depending on your class, you might need different ways to combat an NPC tactic.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 20
12/29/2013 23:01:33   
Pemberton
Member
 

 ^ I find it funny that you are moderating and teaching about epicduel when you don't even have an epicduel account. AQ, DF, MQ, AQW...but no ED.
No offense but I just find it amusing.
Post #: 21
12/30/2013 2:44:35   
Goony
Constructive!


 Hmm, I was one of the players that supported the removal of NPC's from counting as wins...

The NPC's were being abused because players could use a specific build to quickly gain wins. Combine that with brainwash and credit boosters meant that players were avoiding the PvP mode and advancing factions, influence and records without even entering a battle against other players. With a 15 NPC limit per hour it was quite easy to get 150-200 wins per day and not fight another player...

The experience gain is irrelevant to these players as they were, in the main, already at the level cap.

That experience factor has changed with the introduction of Legend at level 40 and being able to advance your character to level 100 to gain additional skills/skill points to use. So, if NPC's are going to count it needs to be in a way that means that they can't be targeted with specific builds that are just purposely trained to give quick wins.

My signature :p

_____________________________

In Epic Duel,
success is not final,
failure is not fatal
and it is the courage to continue that counts!
Epic  Post #: 22
12/30/2013 3:14:19   
xxDantExx
Member

@Goony : agree... or so make NPC's more powerful, reduce the NPC battle limit to less than 15, lessen the credit rewards or no credit rewards at all, and no more w/ the
brainwash thingy.... and if i can add, npc wins doesn't count to faction wins & inluences or war points anymore...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
12/30/2013 6:17:25   
Scyze
Member

What makes me laugh is that some people say you don't have an account if you don't link it here on the Forums. I don't have the DF link being shown, but the thing is, I have an account; I am also a Dragon Lord.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 24
12/30/2013 10:05:57   
FrostWolv
Member

My view regarding Remove NPC counts

Not support removal of Loss counts

I love 2v2 and this might ruin it ........ suppose in 2v2 its me with level 34 against two level 38 .... there will be two scenario:-

First Scenario :- My teammate thought again high level ... their is no loss count so it is better for me to disconnect and relogin with a hope for better 2v2 match ........ resulting me against two opponent

Second Scenario:- My teammate went afk and went for a walk ... me and my teammate died ..... my teammate comes back from the walk and says "yes I got a free 32 credits and 13 exp, My life is good, i should do it again"


My view for NPC Counts:-

Totally Supported .... specially for non-capped players

Few weeks back I introduced 4 of my friends in this game .... everyone were thrilled in the beginning .... but after a week or so all left, explaining me how much they hate luck factor (crit,block,def,STUN) and match against high level players.

I joined this game in beta ... If I didnt found an NPC back then .... I wouldnt be here still playing this game.

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 25
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