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12/30/2013 11:22:10   
Ranloth
Banned


Before I begin, I will be using older and newer system - before and after x10. Current one will be written normally, whilst the old one will be in () brackets, i.e. +10 damage (+1 damage).


After playing for a while, I've somewhat gotten sick of buying weapons for pure art. There is no way that the old system will come back, and it's not what my suggestion is about, but rather, improving the existing system.

During late Delta, we've had weapons having damage and stat leans - some weapons had more damage than the others, but less stats to compensate for it. The ratio was +1 damage : +4 stats.

With the introduction of Omega, this was thrown out the window. Quite sad actually. Not because all weapons are the same, but these leans have made weapons different from each other even on the old weapon system.

What am I suggesting? The return of weapon leans! With no more flawed rounding, the ratio of +10 (+1) damage : +4 stats works out perfectly. It actually allows weapons to be different from each other, but still balanced. We have some variety between weapons, and some players would prefer sheer damage over some stats. Example? Tank builds would love more stats, whilst offensive builds would likely prefer weapon damage.

In the long run, these weapons would be the same, in terms of balance, but could provide some variety for different builds. What if a new promo had stat lean and a semi-offensive core? Ideal for tankier builds, but could do well for offensive builds due to the core - just not the stat lean perhaps.

The leans would go from -50 to +50 (-5 to +5) , so nothing will go out of hand or impossible to stat; +50 (+5) damage lean (-20 stats) on a Level 1 Weapon is... impossible, unless it deducts your stats, because there wouldn't be enough stats to do so. Although, it'd have to be done in such way - because weapon lean would be fixed for a weapon, due to the upgrade system; -40 (-4) damage lean may be great at Lvl 30'ish, but not so good at Level 10, and vice versa.

Furthermore, prices would be standardized - damage costs more Credits/Varium to upgrade, than stats. With some leans, you could go full stats lean for lower cost, and retrain for full damage lean which would cost more, but you'd only pay 100 Credits more, as opposed to even few thousand difference!

Lastly, the leans would be fixed for weapons. Your weapon has +30 (+3) damage lean, and you want neutral (+0)? Buy a new one! After some feedback, the leans would not be fixed to a weapon. You could change it, just like you can re-arrange your weapon's stats now!

And a tl;dr, for those of you who don't bother reading:
  • Weapon leans, ranging from -50 to +50 damage, and -20 to +20 stats.
  • Sets some weapons apart.
  • Caters different builds, one more than the other.
  • Art still remains the main sell point, but not all weapons are the same anymore.
  • Only new weapons would be affected (leans), all the existing ones would have no lean or whatsoever.


    On the current system, weapons have stat cap of 40% in one category. If your weapon has +10 stats available, you may only put +4 into a specific stat and spend the remaining +6 elsewhere - you can max out two stats and invest the leftover 20% into a tertiary stat.
    This system would remain intact. If your weapon had the damage lean, thus less stats, your cap would get lower, and vice versa, if your weapon had the stat lean, your cap would expand instead!


    Another suggestion was brought up, via feedback, for Armor defenses, being convertable into stat points. I'm a bit wary of that, since Armor:stats ratio could still be 10:4, but the slower scaling on Armors' defenses may hinder it and be worth a bit more than 4 stat points.
    On the other hand, the effectiveness of Generator and Piston Punch would improve, if a player desires to do so! It is sacrificing your stat points into Armors' defense, but some builds may not even need that many stat points (diminishing returns), or just don't rely on skills, but weapon damage, thus, stat points end up being used up but not as efficient as they can be.


    Enjoy the discussion!

    < Message edited by Trans -- 1/21/2014 8:18:25 >
  • AQ Epic  Post #: 1
    12/30/2013 15:05:36   
    EpicIsEpic
    Member

    5 dmg vs 20 statas.
    unless you rely on strike, sidearm or aux every 1 will choose statas than damage.

    over all great suggestion and i support
    Post #: 2
    12/30/2013 15:09:22   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    The thing is now, if you want a stronger weapon, you could just invest the amount of stats into str, then it would be equal to a weapon with higher damage, with the same amount of left over stats or more.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
    12/30/2013 15:09:25   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    quote:

    Before I begin, I will be using older and newer system - before and after x10. Current one will be written normally, whilst the old one will be in () brackets, i.e. +10 damage (+1 damage).

    Nuuu, you're confusing it. +5 damage is on the old system, prior to the x10. On new one, it's +50 damage vs. +20 stats. :p Hence why I've written the above.

    Of course, I don't have exact numbers to balance out damage:stats ratio, but it'd be around that (10:4). Regardless, it'd be balanced out by the Devs, not myself, so the concept is more important. ^^

    @above
    Exactly. On average, they would be the same, but in the long run, different leans would benefit different builds - do you want pure damage, which can't be nerfed by likes of Intimidate or Curse/Omega Override (Str/Support), or would you rather go for a stat boost to improve your defenses and skills (if you rely on them)?
    Overall, it'd be a great concept and bring some variety into weapons again. Whilst still being equal to any other weapon, they technically wouldn't be. xD

    < Message edited by Trans -- 12/30/2013 15:12:07 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 4
    12/30/2013 15:17:02   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    By different weapon leans do you mean have the same weapon, but with different variants? Sort of like how armor used to be with physical leans and energy leans?
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
    12/30/2013 15:19:19   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    quote:

    Lastly, the leans would be fixed for weapons. Your weapon has +30 (+3) damage lean, and you want neutral (+0)? Buy a new one!


    Let's use Basic Staff (BS), Basic Claws (BC) and Basic Maul (BM) as example. BS will have -2 lean (-20 damage, +8 stats), BC will have +2 lean (+20 damage, -8 stats), and BM will have +0 lean (no bonus). These would be fixed for each weapon, much like the old stat system on weapons prior to Omega.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 6
    12/30/2013 15:27:57   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    Well there needs to be equal opportunity. What if the BH wants BC with a lean of -2 (-20 damage plus 8 stats) I would only be able to support this if weapons would once again have multiple variants of themselves, and people would be able to equally and fairly choose which they wanted to use.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
    12/30/2013 15:31:46   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    They can stick to past weapons (since it'd affect future ones), or put up with the lean. It would still make your weapon as good as it is now, but a specific lean would be more beneficial for some, than the others. You still have the freedom to re-arrange stats however you want.

    Or, simpler idea, you choose the lean before buying the weapon and can alter it at any time. Makes all the weapons the same, but gives some variety between builds.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 8
    12/30/2013 15:36:10   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    A lean swap idea like you just suggested would probably be the better idea. Where you could choose to have a stronger weapon with less stats, or a weaker weapon with more stats. There would of course be a cost to change the lean, but it would probably be the smartest idea, as being fair with weapons and opportunity is something I really liked with omega.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 9
    12/30/2013 15:38:25   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    I'd say just a simple retrain charge would do, which is 100 Credits. Just like it is now. But it'd bring some more variety at least - not the same old. But before then, I'd hope to see rage re-worked. Why? Look at Caster TMs with 20 Strength, and going for max stats lean - because they are likely to deal 3 damage with their weapons, and abuse rage with skills (which improve w/ stats).
    AQ Epic  Post #: 10
    12/30/2013 15:43:26   
    EpicIsEpic
    Member

    @Trans what i am saying is
    Lets say i make a support build. I would like my aux on pure damage and rest skill points without dmg and statas on support.
    The variety would be different by 20 statas usually (at max) but thats still a lot to me so i'd love this to come true as long as you wouldn't have to buy the weapon
    because then the game would kind of become eather your a hardcore or varium.

    My idea is when you retrain your item and remove damage from it you gain 4 extra stat points. Or make the lean really not noticeable.

    Why? Simply because the lean as in the post gives you too much advantage so i'd have to buy weapons around 22k each on level cap (without cores). Lets quickly do the math here so we could see.
    20*5=100k

    Why 5?

    Because there is a class specific weapon, sword, sidearm, aux and armor.

    (Notice i am not taking into account energy and phyisical damage types.)

    Since there should normally be 2 sets 1 leaning on stat points and 1 on damage in total this would make the total of 200k and lets just throw in cores
    because they give you advantage. 2 cores on weapon all together cost 16k add that to the total making this 360K to be on pair with varium players.

    For those of who don't know it takes 9730 WINS in 1 v 1 to earn that much money.
    Post #: 11
    12/30/2013 15:47:37   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    Yeah, I got it covered now, thanks to Gearz. I'll edit the main post to reflect on it - you won't have to buy a new weapon, just retrain it like you do now. I've noticed the flaw you mention of, especially the extreme costs due to higher item prices. ^^
    AQ Epic  Post #: 12
    12/30/2013 16:08:34   
    Stabilis
    Member

    quote:

    Yeah,I got it covered now, thanks to Gearz. I'll edit the main post to reflect on it - you won't have to buy a new weapon, just retrain it like you do now.
    I was looking for this, and now that I found it I can fully support this.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 13
    12/30/2013 16:46:16   
    Predator9657
    Member

    Just to confirm, does this mean with any weapons you can add a lean, and change the lean to suit your strategy/build (for the retrain cost of 100 creds)?

    Because that would be awesome, and it would add a great deal of variety into the game.

    It would even make build copying harder, since now that damages/defenses are shown as a single figure, it would be harder to tell what the base damage of the weapon is.

    Moreover, will this work with armor too; a lean from armor points to stat points (and vice versa)?
    Epic  Post #: 14
    12/30/2013 16:48:31   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    Yes I do believe so.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 15
    12/30/2013 16:49:07   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    Yep, you could change the lean by simply retraining your weapon! And no, it'd only apply to weapons - Armor wouldn't be necessary, unless you plan on investing the points into Str/Support. Just weapons.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 16
    12/30/2013 16:53:44   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    Well he brought up a good point, sacrificing stats for armor points on armors or sacrificing armor points for stats. Different armor leans.

    < Message edited by GearzHeadz -- 12/30/2013 17:04:55 >
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 17
    12/30/2013 19:00:35   
    Predator9657
    Member

    It would be interesting since some armor cores (Generator + Piston Punch) work with armor points.
    Epic  Post #: 18
    12/30/2013 19:02:44   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    Yes it would. This is turning out to be a really swell idea! It would do wonders for diversity!
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 19
    12/30/2013 20:24:25   
    Predator9657
    Member

    How about aggregating the amount of points (both stat and damage/armor) that a weapon could be increased by, and then allowing players to allocate these points towards stats/damage/armor as they see fit.

    For example:

    A level 20 Sword has 110 damage points (230 minus the base damage of 120) and 13 stat points which can be allocated. With the ratio of +10 Damage/+4 Stats there will be a base amount of 57 points (11*4 + 13) which can be spent as '1 point/1 Stat' or '1 point/10 Damage'.
    Epic  Post #: 20
    12/30/2013 20:55:48   
    dfo99
    Member
     

    not supported, many players not have credits to buy others weapons frequently.

    < Message edited by dfo99 -- 12/30/2013 23:49:53 >
    Post #: 21
    12/30/2013 20:58:51   
    ED Divine Darkness
    Member

    @above, did you not read half the comments in this thread? 100 credits is NOT alot...
    AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 22
    12/30/2013 21:01:44   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    Of course it would only cost 100 credits if you were just rearranging it like you can now, but if adding new stats because you just leveled up or something it wold cost more like it does now.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 23
    12/30/2013 21:01:51   
    VanitySixx
    Member

    Supported.

    It all looked perfect to me. I miss weapon variety and statistical differences as well.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 24
    12/31/2013 7:12:09   
    martinsen5
    Member

    Yeah, this sounds like a good idea. I know they meant for all weapons to be equal, but if a system similar to the old one is what players want, then why not meet in the middle?
    AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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