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12/31/2015 5:36:35   
Thylek Shran
Member

>160 Support (Level 40)

- Lvl 10 Blood Commander (improves with support)
- Lvl 10 Artillery Strike (improves with support)
- Lvl 10 Static Smash (improves with strenght)
- Energy Primary
- Active Primary Core: Frost Shards or Plasma Meteor (buffed by strenght)

Pretty much the strongest build today and for many builds not counterable.
The synergy effects and burst damage are to powerfull:

- First move because of support: Blood Commander which is very strong because of support
-> Support+Strenght Merc with high HP regen and high critical hit chance

- Second move could be auxiliary which is very strong because of support -> Blood Commander regenerates alot HP (critical hit ?)

- Third move could be Artillery Strike which is very strong because of support > Blood Commander regenerates alot HP (critical hit ?)
If opponent does use a strong physical shield like Defense Matrix to counter Artillery Strike:
Frost Shards or Plasma Meteor -> Blood Commander regenerates alot HP (critical hit ?)

- Fourth move could be Strike/DoubleStrike/Maul -> Blood Commander regenerates alot HP (critical hit ?)
- Fifth move could be Strike/DoubleStrike/Maul -> Blood Commander regenerates alot HP (critical hit ?)
- Sixth move.. Defense Matrix does drop: Artillery Strike (critical hit ?)
- Seventh move: Auxiliary again if opponent is still alive (critical hit ?)

Attempts to reduce EPs will be countered very effective with Static Smash (buffed by Blood Commander) and Piston Punch/Generator.

They key problem is Blood Commander which is totally OPed because it is a combination of two skills and does improve with support.
It should not improve with any skill and should cost more EP. At 160 support is does add 74 strenght and a 4-turn Mark of Blood at 44% lifesteal.

As comparision a level 10 Mark of Blood does cost...... 230 EP and has a lifesteal of 33% for 3 turns.
A lvl 10 Blood Commander at 160 support does cost 190 EP and has a lifesteal of 44% for 4 turns + 74 Strenght for 4 turns !
(Numbers for level 40 character)
Reduce lifesteal gain from Strenght from 60% to 50%.


< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 12/31/2015 17:03:14 >
DF Epic  Post #: 1
12/31/2015 5:57:08   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 The funny thing though is that not too long ago, everyone said this class was underpowered. That they wouldn't dream of pvping with this class in its current state. Now that I created a build and spread it around to every player its suddenly OP?

You see the problem isn't with the skills, if any dev is seeing this. The problem is with your simple minded players (not directed to you thylek). Your players, instead of casting a single shield, using azrael (any core), using cyber yeti, deflection core, or even kartherax your players would rather much complain on forums and nerf things.

The funniest part to me is that if you think about it, a handful of players have directed balance into the way it is now by switching to classes that were said to be underpowered and making NOT OP classes but by thinking differently and creating UNIQUE classes that players are too lazy to shield against.

A month ago I said I promised 2 things. I would return to ED and prove a theory. The theory was that if I go around and create OP builds for classes, then spread them around, that the PLAYERS would ruin the game by complaining and asking the devs to nerf each and every one (build) until they are forced to completely remake everything. And that's EXACTLY what im going to do.

So go ahead and nerf this already dreadful class, again, because youre too lazy to do any of the things mentioned above iin bold. Im not gonna try to stop you. If you thought this build was good then youre gonna have MUCH larger problems in the near future. Im just gonna switch, create, spread, and observe the nerf all over again and again and again until you guys end up destroying the game yourselves with your constant begging for nerfs instead of just offering alternate solutions. You're stripping this cake of it's icing.



< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 12/31/2015 6:10:43 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 2
12/31/2015 6:05:42   
Thylek Shran
Member

@Ghost God
quote:

Looks like players are complaining about Merc being OP now. Funny, coulda swore ppl said it was UP. What class is next?

They was wrong with saying that its UPed. It never was.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 12/31/2015 6:06:09 >
DF Epic  Post #: 3
12/31/2015 6:23:31   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Alrighty then. But it seems like sup merc is your problem, so by nerfing that particular skill youre nerfing all merc builds. Go for it.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 4
12/31/2015 6:28:52   
shadow.bane
Member

lol in what world this build is overpowered ? I really would like an answer for that @thylek ... it's over powered to you and maybe to @ghost cause u might lost to them much or played it and felt op ! but I don't find that overpowered in fact I found it pretty easy to beat them o.O this post is just one of the weirdest I ever saw yet .
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
12/31/2015 6:46:06   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Not OP at all. Just a different method of thinking. In reality it just takes a simple shield to destroy it/render it useless
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 6
12/31/2015 7:03:42   
Foulman
Member

What. They don't have Poison, unlike the TLM support bully build, so you can heal it all off, and a simple shield almost always works. Plus they don't have Battery Backup, which is more OP than every other energy skill. If a level 38 can beat ranked players using this build, then something is seriously wrong if you think it's OP.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
12/31/2015 7:11:06   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I like to use something called shadow arts. It really does the trick.
Epic  Post #: 8
12/31/2015 8:39:02   
Satafou
Member

Azreal gun, azreal aux, energy drains, shields. Also support is stronger against certain builds, if support crits against 5 focus the 5 focus will most likely lose since crits are the main luck factor that counters tanks. However high health alone is enough to counter support, as it loses it's ability to burst you down.
Post #: 9
12/31/2015 11:53:46   
Lord Machaar
Member

Thylek, mate, you are speaking about yourself. As a TLM, that build merely makes any troubles. In fact support TLM is a much more OP build, with poison. So no, I don't think we should nerf each build that comes in the way of support TMs.
MQ Epic  Post #: 10
12/31/2015 16:57:09   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

As comparision a level 10 Mark of Blood does cost...... 230 EP and has a lifesteal of 33% for 3 turns.
A lvl 10 Blood Commander at 160 support does cost 190 EP and has a lifesteal of 44% for 4 turns + 74 Strenght for 4 turns !

All of you who say (like always) that its me and that BC is not OPed, can you explain this ? Is MoB UPed maybe ?
DF Epic  Post #: 11
12/31/2015 17:51:09   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Well with that reasoning, Reflex Boost must be OP too. I mean god forbid someone spam support, max reflex boost, and abuse +80 dexterity with a increased block chance on a build where they have no dexterity to begin with.

Lets not forget about technician and the dex mages.

Those skills must be OP.

Buff MoB? Whatever happened to class differentiality?
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
12/31/2015 19:46:39   
Lord Machaar
Member

@Thylek Shran:

The difference between Blood Commander and MoB. Blood Commander improves with 1 stat, which is support, MoB doesn't improve with any stat, thus remain usable with all builds.

Blood Commander is merely usable with support builds, does pretty okay with 5 focus, and good with support. It's not OPed, it's a good skill to make support mercenaries unique.

Support mercenaries are easy to be encountered, or mercenaries in general, since static smash steals a small amount of energy but regains a high percentage. Static smash is good when your opponent has small portions of energy, but at the beginning of the battle, when your opponent has 620 energy, static is basically useless, leaving your opponent with almost his full energy, capable of doing anything. Skills depend on how good your class's energy skills. A class like TM with 2 energy sources has the ability to use certain skills, more than once. It is not the case for mercenaries. I faced many mercenaries as a TLM, and doing now as a TM, mercenaries are the first to get out of energy, they only have the chance to use certain skills once in a battle. As a TM, you use overload, how many times in each battle? Exactly.
MQ Epic  Post #: 13
1/1/2016 18:50:57   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:


Well with that reasoning, Reflex Boost must be OP too. I mean god forbid someone spam support, max reflex boost, and abuse +80 dexterity with a increased block chance on a build where they have no dexterity to begin with.

Lets not forget about technician and the dex mages.

Those skills must be OP.

Reflex Boost and Technician by far do not have such a huge synergy effect as Blood Commander.
They do add stat points like BC and the special stat boni but dont add the MoB lifesteal effect.


quote:

The difference between Blood Commander and MoB. Blood Commander improves with 1 stat, which is support, MoB doesn't improve with any stat, thus remain usable with all builds.

Blood Commander should be equally usable by all merc builds, just like MoB.
What do you think would happen if MoB would increase with support or another
stat like BC ? It would also get abused at the cost of build diversity and general
disbalance.
DF Epic  Post #: 14
1/1/2016 19:24:19   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Blood Commander should be equally usable by all merc builds, just like MoB.
What do you think would happen if MoB would increase with support or another
stat like BC ? It would also get abused at the cost of build diversity and general
disbalance.


You are now stating another reason to the nerf.
quote:

Reduce lifesteal gain from Strenght from 60% to 50%.

In fact, does nerfing blood commander like you suggested contribute to build diversity?
You are demanding this nerf based on your own interests, not based on "making the game" more diverse balance wise. Otherwise, if everyone thought like this, ED's balance would've been way much better.

I don't support nerfing this skill just for the sake of nerfing the build that is associated with. I support tweaking the skill to become usable with different builds, although it already does since it works with support builds and somewhat 5 focus builds. Nerfing the skill won't do that.

Even tweaking the skill to work with mercenaries' different builds, that wouldn't help the class much. Since the problem with merc class is much bigger than that.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 1/1/2016 19:27:20 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 15
1/1/2016 21:11:19   
Cookiesaregood
Member
 

 High health will result in either low defense or low attack power. If its low defense the blood commanders health regeneration will screw you over if its low attack power the health regen will screw you over. I think the main thing here is the health regen. Providing a glass cannon build that regens and has a buff with 2 factors and also improves others dramatically due to its high support which also has luck factors.... OP much?
Post #: 16
1/1/2016 21:14:10   
Cookiesaregood
Member
 
quote:

A lvl 10 Blood Commander at 160 support does cost 190 EP and has a lifesteal of 44% for 4 turns + 74 Strenght for 4 turns !


Not only that but it strings into static smash which will improve with strength
Post #: 17
1/1/2016 22:13:12   
Mother1
Member

@ Cookiearegood

So because a build finds a way to cover up a weakness means it is op?

Use the Valentine's day promo bot or aux and it will nerf this buff's effectiveness by 70%. Then there are also shields that can counter this as well.
Epic  Post #: 18
1/2/2016 2:21:40   
Thylek Shran
Member

@Lord Machaar
quote:

You are demanding this nerf based on your own interests, not based on "making the game" more diverse balance wise.

This would mean that you want to prevent my suggestions
because they are not in your personal interest as YOUR
interest is not balance and build diversity. You transmit
and mirror your own behaviour on me with your accusation.
I had never seen a balance suggestion from you where
you suggested a nerf for TLM which was your class for a
very long time even that you wrote that you think that this
class is OPed.


@Mother1
quote:

Use the Valentine's day promo bot or aux and it will nerf this buff's effectiveness by 70%. Then there are also shields that can counter this as well.

Azraelīs bot and aux would only help those that have them. The most shields do not help
anything against this build as it has both strong energy and physical attacks because of
the strenght boost and primary core. What could help is Hybrid Armor and Shadow Arts
which is limited to 3 classes and only a few builds.
DF Epic  Post #: 19
1/2/2016 3:43:15   
santonik
Member

I have play a many hundred (thousand games) game in that high support mercenary. And i can tell this. It isnt overpower. Sometimes it can be (depend LUCK) I heard some wise players call it gambling build. Sometimes you have very much bad luck (DEFLECT/BLOCK)

1 block/deflect and high support mercenary is dead. THis happens many many times. High support mercenary kill many low HP builds/ low defence builds. Sometimes 5 focus/tank player out healing even highest damage.



High Support mercenary REAL weakness is

1. Azrael set (this is number 1) This ruined blood commander buff. Blood commander is key factor to beating mercenary. Sometimes ( very rare) support mercenary have 1000 energy. That build dont need that blood commander (sometimes it must)

2. Bot special kill mercenary. Ice Shield---Heart Attack---Armor Annihilator ---Chomp! ---Curse of Kartherax---tec.... This ALL special is dangerous.

3. Every shield. Mercenary can use against you. Still it is very rare. Because mercenary NEED FULL RAGE BAR and AUX/ARTILLERY STRIKE/ or primary special with blood commander. Other ways mercenary support build cant do damage. Be smart and learn real weakness. (timing)

4. Mercenary is today hard mode gaming. Because mercenary is ULTRA BAD energy controll to other classes. THis is REAL WEAKNESS in mercenary class. Even 1000 energy mercenary burning alot energy.

5. High HP STR player whit good heal/energy controll. Mercenary cant counter those builds. Only way if mercenary have big luck. Sometimes 2~4 criticals to opponent and still mercenary losing. Happens sometimes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Only support build works now. Others builds is already DEAD now. (focus build dead, str build dead, high tech build dead, caster build totally dead,High HP builds dead)

MERCENARY NEED BUFFS not nerfing

If you nerf mercenary blood commander skill. THat meaning mercenary class is TOTALLY DEAD.
Epic  Post #: 20
1/2/2016 4:37:26   
Foulman
Member

The classes without SA or HA are BM, TLM and TM. Because Merc has no Toxic Grenade like TLM, all classes can heal whenever and however they like. BM has quite a few nukes of its own, as well as MoB. TM and TLM have BB, so they can have high Field Medics. It's just an idea, but has anyone tried 1000 hp, 45-45-45-rest into Supp yet? Level 5 Arty?
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 21
1/2/2016 8:45:55   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

This would mean that you want to prevent my suggestions
because they are not in your personal interest as YOUR
interest is not balance and build diversity. You transmit
and mirror your own behaviour on me with your accusation.
I had never seen a balance suggestion from you where
you suggested a nerf for TLM which was your class for a
very long time even that you wrote that you think that this
class is OPed.


This would benefit my interests in what way? Because I'm defending a class that I'm not even using?
Mercenary as a class has simply been the most unused, in a very long time now, that's the first reason why it shouldn't be nerfed.
Second of all, your mathematical comparison* between MoB & Blood Commander is wrong, as one skill works with different builds while the other doesn't because it improves with one stat.
Does that benefit all mercenary builds? No, but does that mean it should be nerfed? Absolutely not. Blood Commander should be tweaked not nerfed.

I wouldn't say TLM as a class is OP, you haven't played it before, therefore I don't think you can X class is OP or not. I can state many weaknesses of TLM as a class, and the different builds that encounters TLM's 5 focus and TLM's support. With only 2 viable builds, I wouldn't say this class is OP, I would say TM (which I'm currently using) that has 4 viable builds should be looked into, because when you say a class that dominates different builds, that wouldn't leave a chance for other classes to shine. Same thing goes with TMs/BHs dominating high dex builds preventing other classes from using it, so on and so forth.

*ED devs, notably Rabblefroth, loves mathematical related posts, but the thing is here, basing balance on mathematical proof without testing, and I'm 110% sure that there won't be any testing because Mecha Mario has probably quitted being a tester, Rabblefroth will just come back to comparing skills out of their context which is the skill tree, without testing, without many things, entering the game in much more complicated situations.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 1/2/2016 8:48:13 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 22
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