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RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback

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9/3/2017 14:13:54   
Pedrofire
Member

I didn't even notice the increased bonus across the board, 17 bonus (at level 85) is huge, especially since bonus wasn't changed to be less effective against defenses to make up for the roll change. To make BDP a bit more different to MPM maybe bonus could only affect one of them? As it stands bonus is affecting your defenses twice over, making it far more punishing now than it was before. Yes, perhaps we were too tanky, but that was in an environment where rolls were made out of 100, and average enemies (not even talking about bosses here) had very little bonus.
Post #: 201
9/3/2017 15:53:10   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)
quote:

Currently doing some testing with END and WIS.
(Testing END reducing glancing blow damage by 1% per 20 points- that is to say at 300 END glancing blows would do 5% damage instead of 20%- would be capped at 5%.
Also testing WIS increasing healing done by similar numbers.)

Will take a look at healing potions too.
It's kinda odd how they heal a set amount instead of % based. Although % based would seriously skew towards END builds.
Going to consider basing it off of player level and potion level. i.e. healing % of base HP instead of % total HP.

These are all just things I'm exploring though, not necessarily going to happen.


Honestly, I'm not sure END reducing damage is such a good idea. If you plan to have classes and gear that reduce glancing blow damage as a cool mechanic, then the fact you can lower the glancing blow damage to 7% easily (260 END isn't that difficult to achieve) messes with that just because it can only go so low. Also, END builds are super tanky anyway at the moment, because of the defenses being less effective than they were. I think that's fine as it is.

Healing potions are weird, especially with level cap rises making them heal a smaller portion of HP. On the other hand, fixed portions of HP make END OP, as you noted. I think % of base HP makes sense in practice.

EDIT: On another note, can the training cap for stats be raised from 200 to 250? It bugs me that 200 LUK makes my Crit modifier 1.95 and not 2, just because 2 looks so much nicer than 1.95, and 250 LUK would get it there. Also, you can go pure tanky (250 END, 200 WIS) or pure attacking (250 STR/INT/DEX, 200 LUK) which you can't at the moment, since you still have 50 points left over to do stuff with.




< Message edited by Hopeful Guy -- 9/3/2017 16:26:08 >
DF  Post #: 202
9/3/2017 16:15:23   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


 @Pedro: I'm pretty sure generic quest enemies (in Book 3, at any rate) had Bonus in the mid-teens even before 14.1.0. It's not anything new.
DF  Post #: 203
9/3/2017 16:19:25   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*


 Clearly what we need is to introduce another 10 stats (critdmg%, glancedmg%, block%, parry%, dodge%, melee%, pierce%, magic%, bonus%, heal%) and then give everybody another 5 stats per level.

I'm actually not kidding.
DF AQW  Post #: 204
9/3/2017 16:27:14   
Siedgrief
Member

Verly is there a reason why DL Darkness dragon spirit was changed? (sorry to keep asking but it really bothers me that it was changed, it just doesnt make sense to me for the previous reasons that i posted xd)
Also is there a reason why ninja dots were changed to wep element? for me, changing the element it just a extra buff that the class really dont need after all the others buff it received.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 205
9/3/2017 16:32:30   
Pedrofire
Member

@Solanaceae: I was unaware, but the point still stands that bonus has become that much more punishing in an environment where rolls are made out of 150. There's an incentive to not mix and match defenses in an effort to mitigate the effects of opposing bonus.
Post #: 206
9/3/2017 17:11:57   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat
quote:

Verly is there a reason why DL Darkness dragon spirit was changed?

DragonLord defenses are extremely powerful. This just takes a little bit off.

quote:

Also is there a reason why ninja dots were changed to wep element? for me, changing the element it just a extra buff that the class really dont need after all the others buff it received.

Ninja's damage is pretty much all DoTs- so if anything had poison resist then ninja was extremely weak.

quote:

Honestly, I'm not sure END reducing damage is such a good idea. If you plan to have classes and gear that reduce glancing blow damage as a cool mechanic, then the fact you can lower the glancing blow damage to 7% easily (260 END isn't that difficult to achieve) messes with that just because it can only go so low. Also, END builds are super tanky anyway at the moment, because of the defenses being less effective than they were. I think that's fine as it is.

Everything regarding this is still in testing. Numbers may change.

quote:

I was unaware, but the point still stands that bonus has become that much more punishing in an environment where rolls are made out of 150. There's an incentive to not mix and match defenses in an effort to mitigate the effects of opposing bonus.

That's up to you. You could maximize one and throw all your eggs into one basket, or go for a mix and have 2 decent rolls to avoid damage.

< Message edited by Verlyrus -- 9/3/2017 17:21:52 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 207
9/3/2017 17:33:00   
The_element
Member

Hey, Verylus do you know if each class will have their shields updated? I ask this, because when Rolith made engine updates (a very long time ago), it took a very long time for each class to have decent shields. Some classes never even received an update to their shield, for example, GPS. That meant an already underwhelming class was made even weaker. I'm going to quote a post you might have missed on the last page (sorry if you've seen it):

quote:

I know that most people have forgotten about the GPS class, but can you please update its 'Shield' skill? It still does +80 block for 2 turns, could it be updated to something like +180 M/P/M def?
Also another thing that I've noticed is that as Overdrive gives you +100 crit points, this gives you a +50% chance to crit, whereas before it gave you a +100% chance to crit. Could this by chance be updated to give +200 crit to guarantee crits like it did before?

Also instead of changing M/P/M def, couldn't the same results have been achieved by increasing the default bonus to hit on monsters? For example, right now most monsters have bth=1/5 *level, so at lv85 they have a bth of 17, couldn't you have just increased the default bth to say 1/4 or 1/3 of player level?
Post #: 208
9/3/2017 18:23:48   
Pedrofire
Member

@Verly: I meant in the instance where enemy bonus > MPM/ BDP as illustrated here. I made three different builds that exhibited the same damage reduction at 0 bonus, and saw how effective they became as the enemy bonus increased.

Under the assumption that increasing one defense decreases another (which is a valid one, you can't make a very good PDB and MPM build) you are better off maxing one of them out exactly because it effectively makes bonus roll against only one defense. Looking at the numbers it doesn't really seem like an issue (you can only really tell at decently high enemy bonuses), but I figured that it might be interesting for anyone looking to optimise their defenses.

< Message edited by Pedrofire -- 9/3/2017 18:24:49 >
Post #: 209
9/3/2017 18:38:58   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


 Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't having 2 rolls reduce the likelihood of extremes (i.e., eating full damage vs. none)? A build mixing M/P/M and P/D/B would be less volatile in practice, I think.
DF  Post #: 210
9/3/2017 18:50:10   
Caststarter
Member

You would think that, but what ends up happening, trying to mix MPM and BPD, is that the build is simply ineffectual in comparison to a ultra specialization. It actually lacks true consistency since the percentages are too low to really matter. This actually happens in a lot of RPGs, be it with a party or solo. Trying to do a balanced skillset is actually exceedingly detrimental. Yeah, theoretically you have no weakness. Except once faced with something that specialized in anything, the "Jack of all trades" build simply falls flat. This is mainly due to the fact that the Jack build can't exploit the supposed weaknesses of a specialized build, while the specialized build can just put pressure with its specialization to great effect.

While DF is a single-player experience, bosses themselves rarely fall under the category of being ultra-balanced in their moveset. Not to mention that a balanced build simply falls flat in general in comparison to an aggressive build or defensive build.

Which is why I want to ask, in terms of trying to go for both, is arguably a "decent" chance since... from what I know, it is hardly what you would call "decent"...
DF  Post #: 211
9/3/2017 18:57:25   
Lineolata
Member
 
quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't having 2 rolls reduce the likelihood of extremes (i.e., eating full damage vs. none)? A build mixing M/P/M and P/D/B would be less volatile in practice, I think.


The following is a bit of an oversimplification of how the formulas actually work, but it should get the general point across. 40 BPD and MPM versus 74 BPD only, the chance that both BPD and MPM fail is .6*.6=.36, or 36%. BPD only has a 26% chance of failing. And then both BPD and MPM lose effectiveness when Bonus gets higher, which hits a build that relies on both harder than a build that only relies on one. You can see how all three start off equally at 0 Bonus and then the combined build trails off the most quickly when Bonus increases.

< Message edited by Lineolata -- 9/3/2017 18:58:36 >
AQ DF  Post #: 212
9/3/2017 19:07:01   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)


 Caststarter: I feel like there might not be enough of a tradeoff (particularly when you consider All, the third major defence stat). You can set up a build that's really quite balanced and get (as I have) 39 All, 52 B/P/D and 43 M/P/M (could be higher, if I upgrade the EUD). As a result, I've got around a third of the maximum on all the three, which means that I'm not being forced to make many sacrifices. Granted, my gear is highly specialized and all, but the fact remains that my balanced build doesn't really have any obvious weaknesses. Also, I'm too lazy to farm for drops, which means my equips aren't optimal. :P. Also, hybrid classes actually do really well in many ways (think Cryptic, which I've always thought is amazing, or DeathKnight), and hybrid builds (or lucky builds, which also are in this category) are pretty strong as well. The assertion that balanced builds fall flat isn't really that true.

On a side note, good to see you around after all this time!
DF  Post #: 213
9/3/2017 19:52:37   
Caststarter
Member

Is Cryptic really all that balanced though? It has the most defensive options out of the three Atelean base classes, especially since it can heal, albeit at a percentage chance. It has damage output that is consistent across turns compared to Ascendent's rising burst damage and Riftwalker's quickburn damage. So wouldn't it be said that it is simply specialized in defense skills? And mind, I play Cryptic. Also, Deathknight, while a hybrid between paladin and necromancer, actually can perform worst in terms of bosses overall. It has a clear offensive lean. Not entirely compared to Riftwalker since Deathknight has a shield and ability to heal but it is still not enough to match Paladin's survivibility and Necromancer's trollish skillset, making it fare worst for bosses. While this drives the point that specializations have noticeable weaknesses, the classes you mentioned actually do have particularly noticeable leans. Perhaps Cryptic is particularly balanced overall since it does have comparable damage across the board with impressive defensive skills but... the defensive skills are also rather noticeably very good in the first place. You have essentially the equivalent of two shields, a chance heal, as well as a good blind. That is a very good defensive repertoire there. To be fair to the two classes, I suppose it is more noticeable when you look at an overall quest rather than just one side of enemies and just a boss. In which case, you are probably correct in that case.

Though in regards to the All, BPD and MPM issue, let us see numbers While there has to be two rolls done to get past BPD and MPM, you might get hit but then it is just a glancing blow. For your MPM and BPD it is a 29 % and 35% percent respectively. So a normal hit chance has a 71 percent and 65 percent of going through both. Let us combine both here. That is 46%. With a specialized build of 70 MPM that is 54% of going through.. Theoretically, the MPM and BPD is actually better since there are two rolls plus it is higher. But that is also the thing, there are still two rolls. Since both numbers are lower, it might be best to worry about variability rather than consistency since the flat MPM 46% of avoiding damage is a flat 46%. Just my take on the matter. Then there is the idea of 100 BPD which means a hit has a 33.3 chance of getting through realistically. though that is also BPD and that means glancing blows. Perhaps I might have said too much hyperbole, in which I apologize.

Also, good to see you too.

< Message edited by Caststarter -- 9/3/2017 20:15:51 >
DF  Post #: 214
9/3/2017 20:31:59   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


 I consider Cryptic balanced, at least among the other Atalean (honestly, I dunno how to spell this, it's inconsistent in the game) classes. Whereas its defenses are the reason it can compete against bosses, Ascendant and Riftwalker can simply outdamage bosses against high and low HP bosses respectively. Ascendant has pretty good defensive skills too, with a similar blind and a reflective shield (which I believe is B/D/P, thus making the enemy take more damage than you just from attacking). RW has Strength Strike, which is unlike shields and blinds in that it guarantees that you take less damage (though DoTs will still wreck your face), and its shield has the lowest downtime. Both RW and Ascendant also benefit more from on-hit effects than Cryptic simply because they hit more per skill. Cryptic is still the champion since it has a heal and a loopable defensive moveset, one which has several turns of overlap to boot, but the other two don't lag too far behind.

The Doomwood classes are in a kinda weird place. All three have good healing, defenses, and damage, and all three have their own weaknesses, even after their shields have been homogenized against all three damage types. I could see an argument being made for any of them being hybrids, but it really boils down to how you use their skills. One of my main gripes with DK/Necromancer was that DoTs wouldn't get doubled if the DoT was applied BEFORE Stan the ScanOrb applied -All to the enemy, which really hurt their passives unless you used a trinket/potion on your first turn, but Verly seems to have fixed that. Thanks a bunch, boxcat!

Personally, I'd take consistency any day. For an extreme example, if I had to choose between taking 50% damage every round and a 10% chance of taking 500% damage every round, I'd go with the 50% because it means I won't get killed just because RNG decided to roll against me 3 times in a row. This isn't a perfect analogy for a number of reasons, one of which being that a hybrid build doesn't guarantee taking less than 100% damage (well, +All does, but that inhibits healing too), but it's the best I can come up with.
DF  Post #: 215
9/3/2017 20:53:03   
elcidIII
Member

as long as we're updating the combat engine, any chance we could make charisma viable anytime soon?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 216
9/3/2017 21:15:01   
Lineolata
Member
 

 Charisma increases the EXP and gold you get with guests. Normally, guests decrease the exp and gold you get by... 10% per guest, iirc, and Charisma increases the exp and gold you get per guest by 1% per 10 points. You break even at 100 CHA, and get 10% extra EXP and gold per guest at 200. It also gives pets and guests CHA/10 damage per hit, which can be useful with a full-offensive dragon using multihit skills, as well as making it somewhat more likely that a pet dragon or whatever will use a skill. Overall, I'd say it's useful enough for a secondary/tertiary thing, even if it's not as strong as the main stats.
AQ DF  Post #: 217
9/3/2017 21:25:02   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


 Slight correction, CHA doesn't increase damage per hit anymore. It adds to weapon damage, like how STR/DEX/INT/LUK add to the player's. If you roll full Beastmaster (offensive pet + 2 guests), CHA is better than any other stat for damage. You can also use 2 guests to make farming gold/XP 20% faster at Voltabolt's Challenge, assuming you can one shot the boss there.
DF  Post #: 218
9/3/2017 22:26:39   
Siedgrief
Member

quote:

DragonLord defenses are extremely powerful. This just takes a little bit off.


Extremely powerfull? they are just very good at bosses and long quest, but thats it, against multi enemy DL depends on Darkness Dragon Spirit and not to mention thats even the point of DL: its a defensive class, its supposed to have very good def at the cost of low dmg and DL sure does have low dmg; And again it just dont make sense that a def class has its shield skill with just glancing hit (i mean the class really does have a shield to do more than just avoid dmg).

quote:

Ninja's damage is pretty much all DoTs- so if anything had poison resist then ninja was extremely weak.


Yeah but there arent many enemys that are poison element, and from my point of view there IS a poison element in game so why dont use it on poison related skills? (wich made ninja unique in some way), and if you really wanna buff ninja dots there are other ways, like just increasing the dmg they do, changing them to wep element is just a unnecesary buff since they are gonna be afected to enemy resistance too (thats the first reason why Ash put them to poison locked).

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 219
9/4/2017 15:39:54   
Arkandian
Member
 

 Is Deathknight's Dark Rite (all DoTs?) doing double damage while Inspire Weakness is applied a bug?

< Message edited by Arkandian -- 9/4/2017 15:46:43 >
Post #: 220
9/4/2017 16:24:14   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat
quote:

Is Deathknight's Dark Rite (all DoTs?) doing double damage while Inspire Weakness is applied a bug?

Yes. Double DoT damage is fixed in the next update.
AQ MQ  Post #: 221
9/4/2017 16:26:59   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


 I don't think it's a bug. DoTs are doubled if the enemy has between -1 and -100 (I think, not sure on the edge case) resistance to the DoT's element, tripled for -101 through -200, quadrupled for -201 through -300, etc.

Edit: Oh.

< Message edited by Solanaceae -- 9/4/2017 16:27:09 >
DF  Post #: 222
9/4/2017 19:47:54   
Kyros127
Member
 

 @above

Really? It was a bug? Dang it, I really liked using that combo. It's one of the reasons Deathknight is my go to class for challenge bosses.
Post #: 223
9/4/2017 20:24:34   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


 The new potions...oh man, it's amazing. At level 85 and maxed out potions, HP pots heal a base of 993 and MP pots heal 398. I wonder whether WIS's regen bonuses stack additively or multiplicatively with -Health and -Mana?
DF  Post #: 224
9/4/2017 20:31:41   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*
quote:

Yes. Double DoT damage is fixed in the next update.


Aww, sad to see it go.
Why was that a thing, anyways?
DF AQW  Post #: 225
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