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3/27/2022 1:26:35   
Primate Murder
Member

With the week's release out, debates over giving Dex a distinct identity should probably be moved to another thread, so I figured I might as well start it up.

So, how can we make Rangers (FD and FO) functionally different from warriors? In my opinion, we should go back to the drawing board, taking a step back from math and focusing on what Dexterity is. When you invest in Strength, you start hitting harder. When you increase your Intellect, you gain a deeper understanding of spell mechanics and formulae.

When you focus on Dexterity? You become better at outmaneuvering your foes.

Now we can get around to math:

Damage

Whichever way I turn it, giving ranged weapons the same damage as melee ones would be both unbalanced and detrimental to the idea of having a distinct identity. The obvious solution here is to give Dexterity low damage originally (maybe 75% like Int?) and a conditional damage boost that can bring it up to melee levels.

There are several ways I can see it happening:

- Dex vs Dex save on each attack. On success, it deals melee-level damage. The basic idea is not that you hit harder, but that you slip past your foe's guard to hit where it hurts.

- Attacks inflict status like 'On Back Foot' (name subject to change). Monster can shake it off at the start of each turn - but while the status is present, you deal melee-level damage against it. The idea is to disrupt their footing, leaving the monster enable to defend against you as effectively.

- Combo strikes. Each ranged hit gains a stacking damage bonus if the last hit connected, with a miss resetting the effect.

None of the numbers are set in stone. It's possible to go 80% base with 95% conditional damage, or 60% base with 115% conditional, or anything else, really. I'm simply using 75% and 100% melee because that's what people are used to.


Blocking

I'd like to move away from the default idea that you have maximum stat-based blocking. Presuming a partial investment seems like a better strategy, in that it rewards investing in the right stats instead of punishing people for diversifying.

In keeping with the average 15% block rate, here's what I'm suggesting:

10% of those 15 would be moved to MainStat - you violently shove your foe, making them miss, or you parry the attack with grace and elegance, or you quickly weave a defensive ward.

Maxing out Dexterity would provide another 10%. With partial investment, you reach the average block rate of 15%, plus/minus 5% depending on your build.


So, what do you think? Good? Bad?

Post your own ideas and suggestions!
AQ DF  Post #: 1
3/27/2022 1:49:46   
Sapphire
Member

I once made a suggestion on 100 proc bows and in that, I renamed lucky strikes using 100 proc bows to "Precision Hit". This idea also changed lucky strikes for the bows similarly to frostval crown, so it reduced the rate to 5% but increased the damage to 1.5.

Maybe, to piggyback off your idea, and throw in mine, maybe we make Ranged damage extremely "random".

If you reduce Ranged damage down to .75, what if you could have a Dex-based Lucky Strike like damage add-on called Precision Hit that is bringing the overall ADPT up closer to Melee damage, and maybe you could either make this a separate feature than lucky strikes and LS can still occur with or w/o Precision hit, or you rename Lucky Strikes to Precision Hit and just give ranged weapons a different formulation.

In addition, I feel as though Ranged by definition feels like getting the first hit in is going to happen more often than not, so what if at Least 100 proc bows get an initiative bonus?



As for blocking, IMO as long as dexterity provides any type of universal blocking, it will be a primary reason to train it over Strength. It's being a primary and secondary stat at the same time.

I am not against giving Rangers better blocking somehow, though, as I feel it makes thematic sense. So as I said elsewhere, maybe we have an If, then relationship between END and each Mainstat that gives the player something unique that helps define the playstyle. I could see if a character has 250dex/end, then the character gets a small amount of universal MRM..nothing significant, but also something defining.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 3/27/2022 1:52:11 >
Post #: 2
3/27/2022 3:17:05   
Novyx
Member

Altho it might make thematic sense to make ranged damage more inconsistent/random (however upon mentioning, surgeons are supposed to be dextrous but I wouldn't want one to operate on me if they were extremely random-heavy), it doesn't really change how the builds would play, just how effective they are in each given battle. Across the span of many battles, an FO Ranger with higher random damage will still use similar tools to a warrior, click the attack button like a warrior and do comparable average damage to a warrior (or less on average, if you give ranged a damage penalty for this), they'd just be more likely to randomly die, or randomly kill the enemy faster if they low or high roll multiple times in a row. There's not really a comparison for FD Ranger and FD Warrior because warriors don't really have 100-procs, but if they did it'd be similar.

A brief thought I've had is to give DEX/ranged a greater reliance on SP. SP is a build-neutral resource, so you can't make its regeneration tied to a stat, but increasing DEX builds' reliance on it can offer something like the random/inconsistent or ramping power curve that people have been suggesting. SP taking time to build up fits into the ramping fantasy, with items like Drop the MOAP being an example of payoff, while inconsistent can sort-of be fitted by the ability to use a skill that costs 100% melee every 4 turns (so you have a damage spike every 4 turns, lower average damage otherwise), or using SP for other things like buffs (meaning you can also save enough SP to use a buff then a skill, more saving time for a greater payoff). The caveat to this would be that Essence Orb can't really exist in its current state, else the assumption of having to spend turns/pay damage to generate SP is turned on its head.

Besides the whole "I want access to those skills/items too" that other players/builds would probably respond with, the issue with this would be that average damage from clicking attack like a warrior making ranger just warrior, but with more tools (like mages when Hollow mentioned them in the stat rework post). While you can't make builds stop playing to the power curves of others if they have the tools to do so, and if the player desires to do so, you can always make one build the best in said curve. The best solution I've come up with so far to separate FO Warriors from FO Rangers is the following:
1. Make warrior support that's strong in the flat power line warriors are wanting to play on: HP-costing items like Bloodzerker Swords, things that you can toggle for an extended period of time like H-Series (if you ignore the initiative) and Bloodzerkers (although other builds can already use these, unfortunately), basically anything that has a low upkeep and can be kept on for a period of time to have stronger normal attacks. These are items that FO Ranger has little comparable support to, especially vs. the Bloodzerker Swords, so leaning into that more for warriors could solidify their position as the top build for extended fights.
2. Remove initiative from STR and compensate the stat in return: Initiative on STR doesn't make much thematic sense, so removing it would not only make sense roleplay-wise (does a warrior really care if they take 1 hit out the gate? Especially with ready inventory existing), but also provide the stat extra power budget to be spent elsewhere, either by making warrior even better at normal attacking, or giving them some other bonus that I haven't really thought about yet (or maybe a flavour of extra normal attack damage, like increased damage with lower HP).

Now that the wall of text is out of the way, I can agree that DEX is giving too much blocking/dodge chance/MRM at the moment, Primate Murder's solution is good in giving other stats a bit of blocking, as game assumptions would have to be changed for every item that gives MRM if the assumed block rate was no longer 15%, causing a whole mess of its own.

< Message edited by Ebrithil 89 -- 3/27/2022 3:20:27 >
Post #: 3
3/27/2022 7:27:59   
ruleandrew
Member
 

- One idea for DEX -
Ranged attacks (all sources) bonus to hit: DEX * (3 / 20) + (LUCK / 40) - (DEX / 50)
Ranged attacks (all sources) attack damage bonus: * (85 / (85 - (DEX / 50)))

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 3/27/2022 7:38:31 >
AQ  Post #: 4
3/28/2022 0:17:07   
Sapphire
Member

Mentioned it in the guests' thread...


I think Dex needs decoupling from universal blocking, but 1 way to keep dexterity for blocking universally is the following proposal: This, is a larger Ranger niche proposal contained within


Because blocking is kept in this Proposal, keep that in mind.

1. Take the 25 Blocking given at 250 DEXT, determine the Value in Melee%, and then
1A. Reduce Ranged overall damage in the stat damage formula down by the same Value (power)
1B. Keep ranged Weapons base/random the same.

Goal: Keep Ranged weapons base/random the same, but reduce the overall damage with a stats nerf such that, the value of 25 blocking in Melee % are and overall damage reduction are =.

~This damage reduction pays for the keeping of blocking.

2. Reduce Damage a further 5-10%. This missing 5-10% will return with DoT.

3. Ranged weapons take no damage penalty if they have a DoT affect

4. Reformulate all DoT effects such as burn, bleed, poison, and disease to be DEXT inflict for major with an automatic + bonus to the save built-in

5. Reformulate all DoT affects to gain strength (power multipliers) based on Dexterity stat, the same value as what is listed in Item #2.

6. Attach Initiative to all 100 proc bows


This feels more like a niche being carved out.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 3/28/2022 0:41:37 >
Post #: 5
3/28/2022 4:57:02   
Veleqwii_Fox
Member

After thinking about it for a while, I am actually fine with the current set up. I'm glad that the staff decided to remove status potence and bonus initiative from DEX because those are just too much.

In terms of blocking, I'm fine with DEX giving 25 MRM. (Or maybe it could split it with END, since DEX right now also gives pet/guest BtH)

Mathematically, it is much much greater than the 2.5% damage STR gives, or the MP versatility that INT gives (which I couldn't really put a value on, but on paper it technically is a zero-sum thing).

Practically speaking however, blocking, much like extra HP, is useless UNLESS you build around it (i.e. backlash in the case of HP, dodge in the case of blocking).

Arguably, it's something that isn't necessarily needed: yes, it helps you survive but you'd still survive without it (much like having too much HP). It's a similar case with END.

I think it's a fair trade to the advantages STR/INT gives. Besides, nothing's stopping anyone from going hybrid so it's really just a matter of preference.

Identity wise, it gives Rangers the ability to be highly defensive, while being just marginally less offensive than Warriors/Mages.

< Message edited by Veleqwii_Fox -- 3/28/2022 7:41:45 >
Post #: 6
3/28/2022 6:03:58   
ruleandrew
Member
 

Extra combat defence shall operate if player equip ranged weapon.

Ideal extra combat defence with 250 DEX is 5.

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 3/28/2022 6:09:44 >
AQ  Post #: 7
3/29/2022 6:56:11   
XeNON_54
Member

I just hope they decouple it from Pets and Guests bth soon.
Post #: 8
4/2/2022 3:43:14   
Primate Murder
Member

Another potential pattern that Dexterity damage could play around is Celerity. Thematically, the status fits, and mathematically, well...

- 75% base damage and Dex vs Dex save to attack again (at -17 penalty)?

- 67% base damage and 50/50 save to attack again?

- 80% base damage and 50% chance for a 50/50 save?

You can even decouple it from Celerity itself, renaming the Dex effect into Alacrity or Swiftness. That way it doesn't interfere with H-Series and other sources of celerity - and stacking alacrity+celerity gives a chance of up to four attacks per turn, which certainly makes Dexterity rather distinct.
AQ DF  Post #: 9
4/7/2022 11:08:37   
Sapphire
Member

quote:

After thinking about it for a while, I am actually fine with the current set up. I'm glad that the staff decided to remove status potence and bonus initiative from DEX because those are just too much.

In terms of blocking, I'm fine with DEX giving 25 MRM. (Or maybe it could split it with END, since DEX right now also gives pet/guest BtH)

Mathematically, it is much much greater than the 2.5% damage STR gives, or the MP versatility that INT gives (which I couldn't really put a value on, but on paper it technically is a zero-sum thing).

Practically speaking however, blocking, much like extra HP, is useless UNLESS you build around it (i.e. backlash in the case of HP, dodge in the case of blocking).

Arguably, it's something that isn't necessarily needed: yes, it helps you survive but you'd still survive without it (much like having too much HP). It's a similar case with END.

I think it's a fair trade to the advantages STR/INT gives. Besides, nothing's stopping anyone from going hybrid so it's really just a matter of preference.

Identity wise, it gives Rangers the ability to be highly defensive, while being just marginally less offensive than Warriors/Mages.



The big problem, and I *promise* you *will* see this play out, is the attachment to blocking in AQ that MANY players have will cause a huge swath of players to just hybridize FOR the blocking. They wont do it for Ranged weapons. If you were to compare a STR/INT hybrid vs a DEX/INT hybrid, this isn't anywhere close to a balanced build. The *only* way to keep this anywhere close to balanced is to reduce Ranged damage down to an equal amount as to what blocking provides defensively. This would make a STR/INT hybrid at least debatable in comparison. But then you just go with the STR/DEX hybrid using melee weapons and keep the blocking over a "Ranger" who'd lose damage but have the same blocking. So a hybrid w/ Dex always plays out to be preferable due to how players will always try and figure out whats the absolute most optimal way to go. In addition, if Ranged weapons take on lower damage but someplace they put damage back via status effects like easier or more powerful burns and bleeds, etc this is also sub-optimal because of boss mechanics. Players will still opt out of that style due to the unreliability of status inflictions. No matter how you slice it, if you leave Dexterity giving a single grain of sand more anything over the other mainstats it becomes the better stat, and therefore by definition this is not balanced.

The only correct answer, which provides a truly balanced approach that actually makes the player base have REAL tradeoffs is detaching universal blocking from dexterity. While this may mean hybrids and it's variants get the best blocking, this will be at the expense of END or LUK or CHARISMA which would provide offensive boosts or further defensive boosts...ie real trade-offs.

I just see no justification for this remaining as-is.

Dex IMO will need something to compete with the 2.5% melee damage add-on from Strength. That's it. If you wish to do 2.5% melee worth of blocking, then fine. But 25 universal blocking is outlandish if we honestly want balance. Placating to the status quo simply to try not to make players upset isn't really balance if that's where staff wants to justify it. (not saying they are, or will; but I do get that's a consideration)



IMO, the best way to balance STR/INT/DEX is simply to make them all do the same thing. If INT is considered to be balanced as-is, and staff thinks 2.5% Melee damage is to be added to STR, then decouple universal blocking from Dex and give it all blocking to each respective mainstat. INT -> Magic, STR->Melee, DEX->Ranged. Then give DEX something worth 2.5% Melee. Thats REAL balance.

Then, the next item on the to-do list is to create a better carved out niche for Rangers.

You have to take into consideration regular ranged weapons and 100 proc. I believe, a 2.5% Melee status Potence is perfect.

Then tied to this is a Status system redesign.

A thoughtful redesign should look like this:

1. Level vs Level-> Make Levels Great Again! This should matter at a very high clip. Same with initiative. Make it so you gain +1 on the roll for every 1 level you (or the monster) has over the other.
2. Get rid of all + or - to saves. Should be easier to make items afterwards.
3. All status inflictions that are not Dext majors have a Dexterity-based minor, but smaller than Luck. Maybe only to +5. (Lucks is +10)
A. So Level counts, a major, and 2 minors if Dex isn't the major. (Luck +10, Dex +5)
4. Change the status system and group effects into build-specific effects into the standards, but not hard-coded.
A. Effects that seem to need a high amount of Hand-Eye coordination become dexterity as a Major.
This includes most bleeds, some burns, most disease, and most poisons, entangle.
B. Effects that seem to be more based on magic, mind control are INT inflict. These all get DEXT minors.
This includes Control, Panic, etc. However, one could make an argument that INT/magic can be the most versatile as magic can do many things.
C. Effects that seem to be more based on Strength, are STR inflict. These all get DEXT minors too.
This includes Fear, Daze, , etc.

5. Redesign Disease. Make it have 2 variants. Get rid of the poison/sp heal thing and make this disease. Disease = SP heal variant. But also make an INt-based disease for MP heal.
6. Redesign the Freeze-like effects. No more loss of a turn. Keep the element change side, but instead of a loss of a turn, make it change the monsters element for 1 turn to the same element that you attacked with. (opposite of your newfound weak defensive element) So if you're frozen, your fire resist increases. But because you're frozen, you're attack/spell is going to become Ice while your fire resist is at max 200.

7. Charisma- All effects from pets/guests are charisma inflict, and all other player-based effects that are charisma inflict are all weaker compared to normal effects. That's the price paid for using charisma. These all also have a DEXT minor.


This change makes Rangers much better at inflicting statuses and I think that's where the niche needs to focus...is on a status redesign that favors DEX training.


In addition, IMO, 100 proc bows need to be given initiative. You're at a distance so you will likely be given first shot most of the time. The FD Ranger should be really good this way.



Change 2-> All Ranged attacks get half LS Rate, 1.5X LS Damage. This creates a "Random" damage aesthetic. Make ranged weapons base/random Random heavy. Think about it, pointy objects doing more damage may depend on the PRECISENESS of the hit.

So making Rangers high random damage and high status inflict carves out a bit of a niche if there is a status redesign.

In fact, you could argue that FD+100 proc = Ranger and FO+Normal Ranged = Rogue.

Rogues could be more of a high damage "backstab" where staff can create Ranged locked armors meant for "Rogues" with some initiative + extra high damage LS potential for a huge upper hand in the beginning of battles.

The combination of these should really carve out a nice, cool playstyle.








< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 4/7/2022 12:05:34 >
Post #: 10
4/7/2022 20:11:23   
CH4OT1C!
Member

Contrary to the assertion made in this post, there are a number of different ways we can incorporate blocking into the game. They can be categorised into two primary approaches:
1). Keeping Blocking attached to DEX
2). Detaching Blocking from DEX.

To dismiss keeping DEX attached to blocking, the post provides an explanation which I find to be both confusing and ambiguous. The jist appears to be that a large portion of the playerbase will still lean towards investing in DEX purely for the blocking bonuses it provides. As a result, a reduction in the amount of damage DEX provides to ranged weapons needs to be nerfed in order to be balanced (sapphire mentions it needs to be equivalent to the DEX gained). This then has knock-on effects on the relative popularity between different types of hybrid, as well as on the methods that Rangers use to deal damage. In short, make DEX too powerful and it becomes all encompassing, too little and it becomes an afterthought.

Although this justification is correct superficially, the underlying reasons are entirely different. It is true that DEX is currently the most powerful mainstat, allowing ranged weapons to deal 100% melee and blocking on top. However, this has been explicitly stated by the staff as a temporary measure, and will be corrected in subsequent updates. DEX does need a reduction in power if it keeps blocking, but this isn't necessarily because people are solely focused on the blocking as the main benefit. Such a claim is unsubstantiated since we don't know what the wider playerbase thinks. The ripple effects it may have on the relative strength of each hybrid type is similarly unknown. It's possible that a damage reduction would push more Rangers to DoT sources, but most bosses are just as heavily protected against high damage sources as DoTs, making the claims made similarly unsubstantiated. Taking a closer look and the argument doesn't hold water.

I believe that it is possible to achieve the right balance using both approaches above. Different challenges are going to be faced depending on the route we take. If we choose to detach DEX, the problem we face is where we move blocking. Which stat can reasonably support it? A common argument for years (and an argument recently made by the author above. See this thread) has been to split the types of blocking among the mainstats. However, this would cause a similar issue to the one raised above - that you would be forced to hybridise to get the maximum blocking effect. In other words, you'd be swapping one form of hybridisation for another. The only realistic way to do this without forcing hybridisation is to incorporate it within END, CHA or LUK. For obvious reasons, this isn't an ideal solution either.

The alternative is to keep it attached to DEX, which I believe would be a far more reasonable solution. For one, it requires less labour as we don't need to work around incorporating it into another stat. For two, it provides a potential avenue for DEX to begin carving out a unique identity as a mainstat from STR and INT. Of course, this is not without challenges: DEX will inevitably need to deal less stat damage than STR to compensate. This has already caused some degree of concern from members of the Discord community, who worry that FO rangers (a build that's only just come into existence) will preemptively be made obsolete at the hands of FO warriors. To that, I say that (in a few special cases) we can justify breaking the balance model in a minor way for the sake of fair competition between builds. This has already been done - STR is objectively more powerful than INT due to the 2.5% melee it gets on regular weapon attacks (STR/160). This is unbalanced but fair given how powerful INT is practically. I believe that a sweet spot exists between 75 and 100% melee where Ranger weapon damage can fall which 1) enables rangers to be competitive but 2) not outcompete warriors in terms of consistent damage.

I fully recognise the implications of what I'm proposing. I've long argued to stick to the balance model. However, there are times when balance and fairness fundamentally do not agree. I believe this to be one of those situations.

Rather than trying to redesign the entire game, I think a more constructive direction to take would be to have a thoughtful discussion around how we can make Rangers and DEX stand out from STR and INT. A point arising from discord discussions has been that this would need to be identifiable both for FO and FD rangers. I proposed one method would be to focus on inconsistent damage. Warriors have always been about Consistent damage, and Mages about frontloading, so a natural progression would be for Rangers to focus more on Risk/Reward. However, I recognise the unreliability of such an approach (which may dissuade people) and I would be interested to know what others thought?
AQ  Post #: 11
4/8/2022 8:14:47   
Sapphire
Member

quote:

I believe that it is possible to achieve the right balance using both approaches above. Different challenges are going to be faced depending on the route we take. If we choose to detach DEX, the problem we face is where we move blocking. Which stat can reasonably support it? A common argument for years (and an argument recently made by the author above. See this thread) has been to split the types of blocking among the mainstats. However, this would cause a similar issue to the one raised above - that you would be forced to hybridise to get the maximum blocking effect. In other words, you'd be swapping one form of hybridisation for another. The only realistic way to do this without forcing hybridisation is to incorporate it within END, CHA or LUK. For obvious reasons, this isn't an ideal solution either.



Two points.
1. Cray already said Hybridization's penalty is reduced offense due to non-specialization. Then why is it so bad to counter the lesser offense for higher blocking defense by decoupling it from Dex? You actually create multiple hybrids that are all viable instead of a couple we currently have.

2. Nobody would be forced to Hybridize. Maybe some would FEEL AS THOUGH THEY NEED TO KEEP THEIR PRECIOUS BLOCKING META. This statement only serves to prove my point that players know the blocking meta is OP, and will find ways to KEEP IT. I have said over and over that players KNOW it's OP, so the argument will be made to keep it so we can all just block to our heart's content. I really hope staff can see how these types of statements prove my point .


quote:

The alternative is to keep it attached to DEX, which I believe would be a far more reasonable solution. For one, it requires less labour as we don't need to work around incorporating it into another stat. For two, it provides a potential avenue for DEX to begin carving out a unique identity as a mainstat from STR and INT. Of course, this is not without challenges: DEX will inevitably need to deal less stat damage than STR to compensate. This has already caused some degree of concern from members of the Discord community, who worry that FO rangers (a build that's only just come into existence) will preemptively be made obsolete at the hands of FO warriors. To that, I say that (in a few special cases) we can justify breaking the balance model in a minor way for the sake of fair competition between builds. This has already been done - STR is objectively more powerful than INT due to the 2.5% melee it gets on regular weapon attacks (STR/160). This is unbalanced but fair given how powerful INT is practically. I believe that a sweet spot exists between 75 and 100% melee where Ranger weapon damage can fall which 1) enables rangers to be competitive but 2) not outcompete warriors in terms of consistent damage.



Keeping Dex as universal blocking creates problems. You claim it forces hybridization to uncouple it, while I claim it forces hybridization if you LEAVE IT AS IS. Evaluate the hybrids, and you see. Here's why:
1. STR/DEX/LUK- Keeps max blocking, max BTH/damage, can choose Melee or Ranged. No different than today's "Pure warrior"
2. INT/DEX/LUK- Keeps max blocking, max BTH/damage, switches to Ranged Damage and outperforms the above build.
3. STR/INT/LUK- Loses a large blocking bonus, keeps max BTH/damage. Unknown on revamped "Hybrid stats" system. Has a trade-off.
4. STR/INT/DEX- High blocking, loses a TINY amount of BTH/damage. Has a trade off, but smaller in comparison.
5. END/DEX/Mainstat- High blocking, high HP's, and can cast spells (INT; but uses Ranged weapons) or have consistent damage (STR)

Any INT/DEX variants outperform STR/DEX variants offensively due to Ranged's newfound prowess while keeping the same blocking as the STR variant. This is not balanced.


So this is why the answer to balance has to be decoupling universal blocking. And something else needs to happen to Ranged weapon damage. These 2 things need to occur.



Also, it's a bad argument to claim leaving DEx alone is less work, and thus that's the best answer. It's not like anyone is saying go recode every Guest or Ranged weapon. THATS perhaps not worth it. If the right answer means a little bit more work, then it's simply an excuse not to go that route. Decoupling universal blocking from Dex and placing it on the mainstats is not a huge workload.


Just to clearly allow everyone to gain insight on how many players view the game. And how if you leave DEX as universal blocking, how many players will decide what stats to train in this new game. Please just read the colored text in the above quote. This demonstrates clearly how much value is placed on blocking in AQ these days. If you decouple DEX from universal blocking, and if a player wishes to max blocking as much as possible, they would be forced to hybridize in their own mind, when in reality, as with all build decisions, there's trade-offs. He makes my points beautifully.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 4/8/2022 8:25:11 >
Post #: 12
4/8/2022 13:00:40   
CH4OT1C!
Member

The points made in my last post have been taken out of context and twisted to the point at which they barely resemble my original intentions.

Firstly, if you want to play a blocking strategy, investing in stat blocking is extremely important. Monsters are naturally more accurate than the player due to a number of factors involved in game balance. To follow a blocking strategy, the player has to overcome this hurdle. Without stat blocking, you'd need to rely on other methods to increase MRM, which can be expensive to maintain. Essentially, your life will be more difficult without such stat investment.

@SapphireCatalyst2021 argues that you should split blocking between STR, DEX and INT (though many others have argued this before). This typically involves giving Melee Blocking to STR, Magic Blocking to INT and Ranged Blocking to DEX. Doing this means investing in DEX will no longer provide Melee and Magic blocking. Thus, to get the same blocking you today, you would need to invest in all three stats. This forces you to hybridise if you want to use a blocking strategy. @SapphireCatalyst2021 states that this is ok because you don't have to use a blocking strategy if you don't like that downside. I fundamentally disagree with this notion for two reasons. Firstly, you could apply the same rhetoric to any implemented change. For example, if you don't like blocking being tied to DEX, you don't have to invest in DEX. The only underlying difference is that @SapphireCatalyst2021 makes the sweeping assumption that players only care because it's a META strategy and uses this to claim the change is justified. I believe this to be morally wrong; we shouldn't discriminate against META strategies simply because they are META. This brings me to my second point: this change would significantly weaken all blocking strategies and reduce the blocking design space. As described above, instead of this strategy being readily available to anyone with DEX investment, only those with STR/DEX/INT wiill be able to follow the same strategy. For obvious reasons, this is a narrow design space in a 3-stat system).

Keeping blocking attached to DEX obviously has issues. I went into detail about some of these e.g. there's a fine balanced between reducing damage to pay for blocking and making sure FO ranger stays competitive. With that said, splitting it among STR, DEX and INT makes things even worse. Both strategies force hybridisation (either DEX or STR/DEX/INT), but Sapphire's argument also removes a distinctive part of DEX. If you removed blocking, you could justify not giving DEX a damage penalty, but this would result in DEX becoming very similar to STR (undermining the very purpose of this latest stat update). We would be moving backwards in terms of creating a unique identity for Rangers. I don't argue, as claimed by Sapphire, to perform as little labour as possible. I simply believe we shouldn't give ourselves extra work for no reason.

Before I stop ranting, I want to address you directly SapphireCatalyst2021. The text you coloured in my argument had no implications whatsoever on the value placed on blocking. That highlighted text argues a simple point: if you want to play a blocking strategy in that world, you would be forced to hybridise. My last post very intentionally made no reference to how popular or META blocking was as a strategy. I did this because I didn't want to get into a debate about the relative popularity of blocking. However, since it's been brought up - in the time I've spent working on the unofficial guides and helping people on Discord, blocking has never been a massively popular and integral part of the META. That doesn't mean it was weak or universally hated either. With that said, I have received far more questions about Backlash, a strategy that couldn't be more opposed to Blocking. In short, your statement about blocking being popular/META is controversial at best based on the members of the community I am familiar with. That statement does not support your argument, implicitly or explicitly. I fundamentally disagree with your stance.
AQ  Post #: 13
4/8/2022 14:01:02   
Sapphire
Member

quote:

@SapphireCatalyst2021 argues that you should split blocking between STR, DEX and INT (though many others have argued this before). This typically involves giving Melee Blocking to STR, Magic Blocking to INT and Ranged Blocking to DEX. Doing this means investing in DEX will no longer provide Melee and Magic blocking. Thus, to get the same blocking you today, you would need to invest in all three stats. This forces you to hybridise if you want to use a blocking strategy. @SapphireCatalyst2021 states that this is ok because you don't have to use a blocking strategy if you don't like that downside. I fundamentally disagree with this notion for two reasons. Firstly, you could apply the same rhetoric to any implemented change. For example, if you don't like blocking being tied to DEX, you don't have to invest in DEX. The only underlying difference is that @SapphireCatalyst2021 makes the sweeping assumption that players only care because it's a META strategy and uses this to claim the change is justified. I believe this to be morally wrong; we shouldn't discriminate against META strategies simply because they are META. This brings me to my second point: this change would significantly weaken all blocking strategies and reduce the blocking design space. As described above, instead of this strategy being readily available to anyone with DEX investment, only those with STR/DEX/INT wiill be able to follow the same strategy. For obvious reasons, this is a narrow design space in a 3-stat system).


My proposal purposefully reduces blocking throughout all stats as I believe the blocking meta in-game is greatly OP. In addition, if Ranged damage remains as-is, and you keep blocking as-is, Dexterity as a stat evaluation does far more than INT and STR, thus making investing in DEX grant a player more overall power. 250 stat points in Dex doesn't equal 250 stat points in STR or INT. No matter how anyone wishes to mince words on this one assertion, I don't think anyone can entertain an argument against that. If people feel that's ok, by all means die on that hill, but technically Dex >Int and STR.

More importantly, the design space argument is actually the complete opposite of your argument. Decoupling DEX from universal blocking INCREASES design space. Staff can now design monsters in a way that it's attack (MRM) type MATTERS. In today's game, there is little difference between total MRM when you add stats, an armor, and a shield. Not enough to significantly challenge players. In my scenario, a player with STR/INT/LUK would lack Ranged blocking compared to Melee and Magic blocking and so the enemy, who is attacking with Ranged, would be more difficult for this character but easier for a character who trained DEX. This CREATES design space for staff to build monsters that cater to builds, make it harder for other builds, and doesn't limit design space due to such closely tied overall MRM stats. This means you CAN play blocking META, but not universally. Everyone then gets some blocking. WARD pointed out that currently, non DEX builds will always be hit with how the chance to hit formulas work. Now, anyone who trained at least 1 mainstat can play blocking at least sometimes. This simply opens up the game to more variety and isn't pigeon-holing the game with the same old, tired, stale ideas.


quote:

Keeping blocking attached to DEX obviously has issues. I went into detail about some of these e.g. there's a fine balanced between reducing damage to pay for blocking and making sure FO ranger stays competitive. With that said, splitting it among STR, DEX and INT makes things even worse. Both strategies force hybridisation (either DEX or STR/DEX/INT), but Sapphire's argument also removes a distinctive part of DEX. If you removed blocking, you could justify not giving DEX a damage penalty, but this would result in DEX becoming very similar to STR (undermining the very purpose of this latest stat update). We would be moving backwards in terms of creating a unique identity for Rangers. I don't argue, as claimed by Sapphire, to perform as little labour as possible. I simply believe we shouldn't give ourselves extra work for no reason.


Again, there is no forced decision. In fact, I would argue leaving DEX as-is is a greater influence to hybridize over decoupling it. In my proposal, everyone in the game no matter the build is making sacrifices somewhere... It's far more ideal to create these "If I train this, then that means that" scenarios. Leaving Dxeterity as-is will have a greater influence on build decisions in comparison to decoupling it.

I will admit, though, this may leave DEXT in a conundrum compared to STR in that STR will outperform DEXT in damage, and thus, may look to become the more valued stat. However, remember the initial proposal makes STR look weak and staff even asked for ideas to improve STR. I simply viewed DEXT as still OP, and my proposal solved the issue without introducing power creep and creating a Mainstat Arms Race. This decoupling you now admit, makes STR look better, too. So decoupling solved that problem. Now the issue if you decouple blocking, is what the design space looks like for Dexterity and THATS the issue IMO.
Dex looks weak compared to STR, and it's too strong compared to INT so players will hybridize and be INT/DEX and use Ranged weapons. So we now must reduce Ranged damage so that INT/DEX hybrids don't exceed the damage over time balance, but also create a Ranger niche. This is the hard part.

STR gained 2.5% Melee increased damage. What if DEXT gained 2.5% Melee blocking ? I still think blocking needs a quantifiable power in Melee% to really assess it.

In addition, An idea I just now had in looking through old Pedia info subs, is what if Ranged damage = magic weapons (would need to be a stat reduction) , but Rangers gain damage on skills WITH decreased SP costs for SP based quick casts.
Give Rangers the "Quick Cast" identity. Staff would need to create an entire slew of quick cast skills . What I am referring to is Terror, Sneak, Imbues, and a multitude of things that add stuff onto your attacks that, by default, are lower (to keep mage variants from abuse) The other thing that keeps Mages in check is the decision on spell slots. Will a mage use spells or these quick casts ?

Another thing I think needs to happen (if it's even possible) is the bonuses implemented on END need dropped, and then added back in based on End + which Mainstat you trained.

If STR + END is trained, the players gains a damage decreaser to itself. Because warriors are in tight, and thus need to be more resistant to damage up close.

If DEX + END is trained, the players gains blocking. BUt only if DEx is trained with END.

If INT + END is trained, the player gains a buff to healing.

All 3 is defensive boosts that can be equally quantified but remains different flavors.

I think if you can make imbues, quick cast skills like GTerror, Sneak, etc , etc shine with Rangers either through increased damage due to
Post #: 14
4/8/2022 15:48:09   
CH4OT1C!
Member

I disagree with your mindset:
quote:

My proposal purposefully reduces blocking throughout all stats as I believe the blocking meta in-game is greatly OP.

However, I accept that you have a right to that viewpoint. Nobody is arguing that STR/DEX/INT are completely balanced right now. I've outright agreed that they are unbalanced:
quote:

source: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22402060
It is true that DEX is currently the most powerful mainstat, allowing ranged weapons to deal 100% melee and blocking on top. However, this has been explicitly stated by the staff as a temporary measure...

This imbalance is the main reason why we have to either i). remove blocking from DEX or ii). reduce the amount DEX contributes to Ranged Stat damage.

However, I completely disagree with:
quote:

More importantly, the design space argument is actually the complete opposite of your argument. Decoupling DEX from universal blocking INCREASES design space. Staff can now design monsters in a way that it's attack (MRM) type MATTERS.

This is because monsters are designed with certain assumptions about the player in mind. Under your proposed scenario, players wouldn't be able to block against every damage type using current assumptions. This means either i). Monsters would get much harder (in the absence of compensation) or ii). The staff would be more restricted in how they could use damage types because players can't as easily defend themselves. Both scenarios reduce the design space. I also disagree with:
quote:

Again, there is no forced decision. In fact, I would argue leaving DEX as-is is a greater influence to hybridize over decoupling it. In my proposal, everyone in the game no matter the build is making sacrifices somewhere... It's far more ideal to create these "If I train this, then that means that" scenarios. Leaving Dxeterity as-is will have a greater influence on build decisions in comparison to decoupling it.

I'll be blunt with my reasoning. The current formula for blocking is:
quote:

source: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22401773
DEX/10 + LUK/20.

This means 250 DEX effectively provides +25 M/R/M. You can overcome that deficit using things like the Defence boost status. However, that would cost (being kind using a rough calculation based on Bag of Nuts) at least 180sp per turn. That's just to overcome the hole left by stats, not to run a true blocking strategy. It's physically possible to run a blocking setup like this, but the costs would be high and efficiency very low. If you wanted full coverage via stats, you'd need to hybridise. The current situation still forces you to invest in DEX, but at least it isn't STR, DEX and INT at the same time.

Regarding the balancing of STR/DEX/INT:
quote:

STR gained 2.5% Melee increased damage. What if DEXT gained 2.5% Melee blocking ? I still think blocking needs a quantifiable power in Melee% to really assess it.

DEX is objectively stronger than STR and INT currently because Ranged weapons deal 100% melee (with stat investment), but you also receive 25 blocking in comparison to +2.5% melee damage for STR (and nothing at all for INT). 2.5% melee is worth 1.5M/R/M, for comparison.

Regarding Ranger identity:
quote:

Give Rangers the "Quick Cast" identity.

This has also been suggested by others in Discord. From my perspective, it's an automatic non-starter because of how many issues quickcast skills have already had on many of the game's core mechanics. That's not to mention the number of problems it could potentially cause around build identity.
AQ  Post #: 15
4/8/2022 16:08:31   
Sapphire
Member

Please name problems with creating a skill caster identity.


If you have Ranger damage start at 75% Melee like Mages through a reduced stat damage, and then you create a brand new set of skills, different from other skills we currently have, and call them ""Ranger Skills", these could all be a lower than normal SP cost "spell" that adds to Ranged damage, adds imbues, statuses, and any number of ideas.

If the model for Mages and Warriors assumes:

Mage: 200% 200% (spells) 75% 75% 75% 75% etc etc etc 200% 200% 75% 75%....... all the way to a 20 turn value of X

Warrior is 100%----------------> All the way to a 20 turn value of X (unsure if skills casted is included someplace)


Then the Ranger would be something like 75% (no SP skill attached) 125% (damage skill attached) 125% 125% 75% (no skill attached) 125% 125%...-> to 20 turn X Value.

Where the SP cost to attach these "Ranger Skills" starts with the assumed starter SP, looks at turn regen, and then ensures they can cast a specific number of skills over 20 turns to = the same damage output of the others.


This would need to be a heavy discount. They could also OPT for status inflictions and IMBUES instead of a per turn damage increase, and play that way if need be, just at 75% Melee per turn + status. This quick cast style encompasses a status style and keeps damage up with Mages/Warriors if need be...all rolled into 1. And since you can pick and choose what you wish to equip, and all these "Ranger SKills" would all be DEXT major stat inflict, further catering to the build. In addition, these status add-ons take no damage penalty, unlike statuses attached to warrior and mage stuff.

I would assume a damage quick cast would not be every turn, but maybe 1 cast is for 3 turns, and only works on Ranged weaponry. And you could stack all you want. Terror + damage + choke, as long as you have the SP.. I think this would be VERY cool build.

So see past how quick casts are used now, and think of this as a different category of items designed for Rangers with super low SP costs and DEXT based-inflict that only work with Ranged weapons.

You could create ALL KINDS of stuff. Quick casts that do pure damage as a mainstay. Others that are only a status. Some that are part damage, part status. SDome that are 1 turn, others that are 5 turns. This would be wonderful.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 4/8/2022 16:18:45 >
Post #: 16
4/8/2022 17:09:00   
CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

please name problems with creating a skill caster identity.


I don't know whether you mean Skill casting (i.e. regular SP skills) or Quickcasting (i.e. specifically quickcast effects as stated prior), so I'll do both.

Skillcasting:
1). SP is currently a universal resource (forming 20% of the 140% melee a turn total player output). This means it's independent of build. This would require reformulating the entire concept of SP to work universally, but also build into ranger stat damage.
2). This would also require looking at Player SP regeneration, which currently does not regenerate the amount proposed in the player turn formula. Right now, that's somewhat OK due to it being build independent. However, it would likely need to be looked at again due to Rangers disproportionately being affected
3). Build identity: This would entail Rangers having a similar function for SP as Mages do with MP, calling into question the similarity of how the respective builds utilise said resource bar.
4). This would require the generation of an entirely new suite of items that solely work for rangers, which could take years to properly supply.
... There are more but you get the picture

Quickcasting:
1). Everything above
2). Quickcasting is a grey area in balance because there are no specific reasons for a limit in uses per turn. You would need to revamp quickcast skills standards with clearly defined limits for Rangers to disproportionately benefit
3). Build identity: once again, this could step on the toes of mages because Rangers would not only be able to frontload, but actually do it better than mages because they can exploit these effects in a single turn.
... and the list goes on.

This is before we talk about skill discounting and such. Like I said, it's a bad idea

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 4/8/2022 17:17:24 >
AQ  Post #: 17
4/8/2022 17:52:22   
Sapphire
Member

Im talking about creating a new class of skills, called Ranger Skills, that are all quick cast, and only applied to Ranged weapon attacks, that cost a low amount of SP, to take a lowered stat damage of Ranged damage that sits around 75% Melee, to do things like

1. Boost damage output to from 75% Melee to over 100% Melee, if so desired.
A. Could come in varieties. 1 quick cast for 1 turn or 1 cast for 3 turns, at a X3 SP price.

This would require a balance standard on damage output over 20 turns. As a quick example, if normal Ranged damage were to sit at 75% Melee, then quick cast buffs could push this to 125% Melee.
Since SP isn't infinite, some attacks are normalized without an SP quick cast attached, and other have the SP quick cast attachment to bring up damage or other stuff like..
2. Add element locked imbues
3. Add status effects, anything we normally see to anything new. These don't enhance damage, but keeps the 75% Melee damage but adds-on a variety of statuses.
4. Some Ranger skills could be combos, 2 effects, part damage, part effect.
5. All have Dext-based major for stat inflict.

These would, again, need major SP cost discounts, more akin to a MISC. This is thematically fine because skills need great dexterity to do well, so it should take far less "skill points" to implement such things compared to those who do not have dexterity. Skills are 2nd nature to a Ranger, and thus,need to be used to enhance their gameplay to keep up with, and in some circumstances, surpass a Warrior and Mage.


This playstyle is closer to how Mages play than warriors, except their coating their tipped weapons with enhancers rather than "casting".

This is not a bad idea. It is just to you. Because you're likely attached to blocking.


Some have suggested inconsistent damage as a difference.

Some have suggested focusing on status inflicting.

Some have suggested skill-casting.

This is all of those.

Anyone else alive out there wish to give their 2 cents on the idea?

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 4/8/2022 17:55:40 >
Post #: 18
4/8/2022 17:58:57   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

Quick-cast actions are enough of a problem for the action economy that further quick-cast spells/SPells with looser restrictions are a non-starter as a core niche for a stat. As a general rule, an identity that requires the extensive creation of items is also not a solution to a problem inherent with a stat nor within the purview of a part of the revamp that needs to be done in one release.
Post #: 19
4/8/2022 19:58:48   
ruleandrew
Member
 

One suggested block rate:
[DEX * (3 / 100)] + [END * (2 / 25)] + [LUCK * (1 / 25)]

This change implies ranged weapon (250 DEX) is worth 87.5 % melee.
This change implies ranged weapon (0 DEX) is worth 50 % melee.

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 4/9/2022 9:43:18 >
AQ  Post #: 20
4/9/2022 6:22:58   
CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

source: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22402085
This is not a bad idea. It is just to you. Because you're likely attached to blocking.

To clarify, my opinion is absolutely subjective and not necessarily representative of the wider community. However, this statement makes a gross mischaracterisation of the way I enjoy playing the game in an attempt to diminish the validity of my argument. I state mischaracterisation because it is entirely untrue; my character (under avvy) currently possesses no DEX and uses backlash mechanics, not dodging. Even this this narrative were true, it still wouldn't invalidate my point because the view of players that use a blocking strategy should be taken into account. A view isn't inherently worthless simply because of a conflict of interest.

With that in mind, I really want to make explicit Cray's point with regards to:
quote:

source: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22402085
Im talking about creating a new class of skills, called Ranger Skills, that are all quick cast, and only applied to Ranged weapon attacks, that cost a low amount of SP, to take a lowered stat damage of Ranged damage that sits around 75% Melee, to do things like

What this describes is a set of skills to be exclusively used by Rangers. It is still a skill and needs to fit within the 20-turn model, which you rightly point out
quote:

source: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22402085
This would require a balance standard on damage output over 20 turns.

The problem is that SP is a universal resource outside of player specific damage by design. There are three components to player side damage:

1). Player damage: 100% melee
2). SP: 20% melee
3). Pet Damage: 20% melee

= 140% melee total. This is why monster attacks are valued at 140% melee. The eagle-eyed of you will notice that there are a number of issues with this breakdown (which are an entirely separate discussion).The differences between Warrior and Mage fall within the Player damage component of this formula. Over 20 turns, Warriors deal a consistent 100% melee. Mages are assumed to spend most of the time dealing weapon damage (at 75% melee) and rarely using spells (at 200% melee). This averages out at 100% melee per turn. My point: The differences between Warrior and Mage are internally consistent within the player damage component of the formula. The change you suggest stretches beyond that component, into Player Damage and SP. Thus, to properly balance your suggestion, you would have to internalise SP in a way that both makes up for lost player damage, but also keeps SP as a universal resource. This creates problems e.g., Rangers would be able to use low cost skills not just to offset Player damage, but as part of their universal SP component. Theoretically, this means they could do far more more than their fair share of damage within 20 turns.

To do what you propose is hypothetically possible, but it would require making massive changes to the basic player formula (so that a component of SP could be internalised within Ranger player damage). It would also require the creation of dozens of Ranger skills to create such an identity, a process that could take years. All of this precludes how you would balance skill costs (by the way, Misc costs aren't balanced. They wouldn't be a solution), and the potential problems of quickcast (as Cray mentioned). In short, it's totally impractical.

Your idea is not the same as:
1). Inconsistent damage: This can easily be internalised into player damage e.g., 80% of the time you deal 85% damage on regular weapon attacks, 20% of the time you'd deal 160% damage. This averages to 100% damage overall. You don't need to mess with SP to do this.
2). Status inflicting: I'm personally not fond of this idea, but it could still be internalised more easily than yours. Internal status potency could be paid for via reduced Ranged damage output.

In short, this idea is incompatible with current standards (necessitating fundamental changes) and is impractical as it requires the creation of a diverse array of exclusive skills that could take years to properly support.
AQ  Post #: 21
4/9/2022 7:07:08   
Veleqwii_Fox
Member

So I did a little damage comparison of all the 20 possible builds (with 250 in 3 stats) after the recent stat revamp and here's what I've found.



Some assumptions first:
1. Values are only based on Level 150 equipment. For now, it would be a nightmare to compare other levels.
2. 1 melee unit (100%) = 346 damage. This is equal to base melee weapon damage plus stats, not including lucky strike damage.
3. For the final values, accuracy is taken into account and mob defense was assumed to be 90. Thus, a warrior with 250 STR/0 LUK will hit 85.5% of the time.
4. No other mechanics are included. Only basic attack in neutral armor, spells in neutral armor, pets, and guests were calculated.
6. I just assumed this, but I'm not sure: magic booster pets get a *4/3 on magic attacks and *1/2 on spells (including lucky strikes)

If you want to know I arrived at these numbers or if you want the complete table (of 20 builds), you could give me a PM. You could also do your own calculations, and feel free to point out anything I might have gotten wrong.



Observations

All numbers are in Melee units



[A] Top 5 builds on 20-turn Total Damage: Weapon, Pet, Guest, and 4 turns of spellcasting
1. DEX/CHA/LUK: 41.3
2. DEX/INT/CHA: 38.3
3. STR/CHA/LUK: 37.6
4. INT/CHA/LUK: 37.1
5. STR/INT/CHA: 36.1

CHA is present in all these builds because pets and guests contribute a significant amount of damage. We can see that the DEX build is really OP, beating even the STR build mainly because pet and guest accuracy also depend on DEX. Moreover, a DEX/INT hybrid beats the pure INT build since they can cast spells then use ranged weapons instead of magic. This means that for an INT build, DEX is definitely worth trading LUK for in terms of damage. There isn't much difference between the pure STR and pure INT builds since the STR bonus only affects normal attacks. The STR/INT hybrid also made it to the top list, again because using melee weapons after spellcasting is an option.



[B] Top 5 builds on 20-turn Total Damage: Weapon, Booster Pet, Booster Guest, and 4 turns of spellcasting

Now if we were instead using booster pets and guests which don't depend on DEX, STR builds win because of the extra boost from STR. Do note that DEX builds even got weaker (from 41.3 to 40.5) when using booster pets/guests. This is because a normal guest does 65% melee with max CHA, while boosters only give 60%. Also, the INT build seems to have overtaken the DEX build due to the *4/3 boost affecting Magic weapon LS damage.

1. STR/CHA/LUK: 41.4
2. INT/CHA/LUK: 40.6
3. DEX/CHA/LUK: 40.5
4. STR/INT/LUK: 39.8
5. DEX/INT/LUK: 39.2

Again CHA builds still win because booster pets also still depend on CHA. However, INT hybrids are not too far behind because of their spellcasting abilities on top of regular weapon damage. It can be seen that booster pets and guests definitely beat regular pets and guests in ANY set-up (be it CHA or non-CHA build, max DEX builds being the only exception). This makes them OP, and they need to get a second look.



[C] Comparison of the three secondary stats: on a STR/DEX build, 20-turns

STR/DEX/LUK with booster guests: 36.4
STR/DEX/CHA with guests: 35.4
STR/DEX/CHA with booster guests: 35.0
STR/DEX/END with booster guests: 30.7
STR/DEX/LUK with guests: 30.4
STR/DEX/END with guests: 24.9
STR/DEX/LUK no guests: 25.4
STR/DEX/CHA no guests: 24.3
STR/DEX/END no guests: 20.2

It can be seen that CHA beats LUK in damage when guests are assumed (except in the case of boosters, where LUK beats CHA). Without DEX, the power of CHA would even be lower. However, LUK also boosts blocking by a little bit (12.5 MRM so around 20% melee worth, a total of 4 melee units in 20-turns). END, on the other hand, gives about 8 melee units worth of HP. Overall, the 3 secondary stats are more or less equal in terms of utility.



Some Conclusions and Recommendations



[A] DEX is definitely OP. The damage output of DEX is too much, rivaling even surpassing those of STR and INT builds. Plus, this doesn't even address the bonus blocking from DEX.

Some recommendations:
1. If you want to keep pet and guest accuracy tied with DEX, maybe stat damage from DEX can be reduced. Even at 50% (about 5 melee units over 20-turns) reduction, it could still be competitive. Moreover, I think this could be justified as penalty for the blocking given by the stat.

2. You could make pet accuracy dependent on mainstat instead. The damage output of STR, DEX, and INT builds would be more leveled. Personally, I'm ok with DEX having the extra blocking on top. Now, if people still think this is too much, the only recommendation I could think of is having DEX share blocking with END. Buffing STR and INT to keep up with DEX might incentivize hybrids too much so this is not recommended.



[B] Now if pet and guest accuracy are not factors (in the case of boosters), STR takes the rightful top place in terms of damage. This supports my second recommendation above or decentralizing the dependence of pet and guest accuracy on DEX. Moreover, it seems hybrids are on a safe spot right now. They're on top of the damage chart but still slightly weaker than pure builds. They allow for versatile playstyles but they have to manage spell slots between booster guests and actual spells, I think that's good enough a drawback.

On another note, boosters are OP. I was under the impression that these shouldn't perform better than regular pets and guest since they use the "wrong" stat. This might be a separate issue altogether so I'm not going to discuss any recommendations.



[C] The secondary stats seem equally leveled. There's really no advantage leaning to one stat. Yes, CHA builds do more damage compared to LUK builds, and CHA pets/guests have a lot of utility. But remember, LUK also adds blocking, initiative, minor save bonuses, and there are hypercritical interactions that were not assumed in the calculations. END does neither of these but it adds a heavy chunk of resource that can be used for SP-conversion or backlash playstyles. LUK being superior to CHA in the case of boosters is not the fault of either stat, it's an issue for the boosters themselves as I've said above.
Post #: 22
4/9/2022 8:16:34   
Sapphire
Member

Doesn't make sense to keep DEX on for Pet/Guest BTH. Charisma related stuff was left alone as it will be addressed last. I think what you should do is re-evaluate the numbers and assume BTh for pets and guests will be the same proportions as how mainstat affects players attacks, etc.

The Gorilla in the room for all of this is blocking, which IMO is OP as a playstyle as it is too easy to become unhittable, and it will bypass most boss mechanics unless staff makes bosses auto-hit, thus why even have blocking as a mechanic if that's the case. I still hold firmly that decoupling blocking from DEX pushes it closer to equal to the other stats. I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone is wanting to keep DEX attached to blocking? /sarcasm. If you keep it, Ranged damage has to be proportionally decreased. That, IMO, is the only solution. And IMO, I believe that will still come with it';s own inherent problems as I forsee it throwing a monkey wrench into attempts at creating a Ranger, and I think it decides for players who wish to hybridize to just choose DEXT for blocking and nothing more. If staff can manage this balance, by all means go for it.

I am curious on two fronts, though.:

1. I think the new pure build will be Mainstat/END/LUK. I was wondering if that could be included? I think it will show good numbers considering max accuracy.

2. If the BTH formula were to be changed to decrease mainstat such that luck were a greater influence (by 2x) from 6.25 bth to 12.5 bth, what would be the difference with END builds other than the "pure" one listed in item #1 above? Also other non luck builds...I am concerned there isn't enough of a trade off with backlash playstyles. Before, you lost huge amounts of BTH, but the new change means you're only losing out on 6.25 on a mainstat/END/CHAR build and this makes backlash even better than it already was.

Thanks for the post, and thanks if you're willing to answer these questions.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 4/9/2022 11:00:25 >
Post #: 23
4/9/2022 12:49:07   
Veleqwii_Fox
Member

@Sapphire: Here are the END/LUK builds (non-booster/booster). They don't do as much damage because they lose out on CHA.

STR/END/LUK: 28.1/36.4
DEX/END/LUK: 30.0/35.6
INT/END/LUK: 27.7/35.7

Right now, CHA/END builds outperform END/LUK builds when using regular pets and guests. When using boosters, END/LUK is marginally better than CHA/END builds because CHA plays a very minor role in booster pet damage. LUK can easily outperform CHA. If BtH formula were to be changed, it would make LUK builds so OP, because it would remove the damage gap between CHA/END and END/LUK builds. This gives END/LUK builds a huge advantage because they also have more resources.
Post #: 24
4/9/2022 13:53:50   
Sapphire
Member

^ You left out DEX/INT/CHAR I think, for boosters

Actually, I'd like to build a quick chart with all builds. Literally, every 250/250/250 build with melee units, and try and assign some type of value in Melee units for defense for DEXT and LUCK and END.

Could you do all the remaining builds? PWEASE???

Can someone please answer this. How much Melee% value is placed on 250 END *over* 0 END in Hp's? (The difference between max HP's at 0 END and 250 END) and 250 Dex's blocking value (25 MRM) and Luck's 250 blocking value (12.5)???

We can talk about DPT over 20 turns all we want, but we usually forgo defensive values. So I want to compare. Thanks. I am assigning total Melee Value for every single build which includes Defense.



Edit- Bloodmage armor pays 100% Melee in HP, which is said to be 348 HP. 250 END is 5853 HP and 0 END is 2958 HP. So 250 End is 2895 more HP. 2895/348=8.31 Melee Units assigned to END

Training END is 8.31 Melee in power.

I just need 25 blocking and 12.5 blocking (which obviously is half of 25)

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 4/9/2022 14:52:27 >
Post #: 25
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