RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (Full Version)

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Kaelin -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (5/22/2009 9:36:49)

I've collected some data from two different estates during this past war and decided to try to see if a noticable difference in performance emerged.

First, let's describe the estates:

Owner: Kaelin Alvein
Attack: 843
Resources used per attack: 1008
Tower Level: 12
Total Waves Sent: 24
Wins: 437

[Note: An extra half-wave was sent at the end of the war but is omitted from calculations. This omission was decided in advance to avoid confounding the impact of the number of guards sent, and it turns out the data would have had an insignificant impact on the data anyway.]

Owner: Never Gonna Give You Up
Attack: 223
Resources used per attack: 264
Tower Level: 9
Total Waves Sent: 84
Wins: 491

Method: I recorded wins, gold, and XP earned for each wave sent. Since XP rewards round to relatively small intervals (and XP is probably the most important thing to players here), I focus my analysis on said rewards. Since Captain Rhubarb has announced that rewards are granted according to a normal distribution, I assume the data for each estate fits a normal distribution. The ultimate measure of effectiveness for each estate in terms of XP is how much XP is earned per resource spent, so I produce a list of XP/resource for each estate. I then run a t-test (one-tail, unequal variance) to test whether Kaelin's estate seems to give better rewards than Never Gonna Give You Up's estate.

Statistical Information of Data:

For Kaelin Alvein
Average XP Earned Per Resource Used: 4.311
Standard Deviation of XP Earned Per Resource Used: 1.457
Number of Full Waves (n): 24

For Never Gonna Give You Up
Average XP Earned Per Resource Used: 4.095
Standard Deviation of XP Earned Per Resource Used: 1.147
Number of Full Waves (n): 84

P-value (t-test result): 0.254

Analysis: Kaelin seems to have a better average than Rick Astley (albeit a fairly weak one), so the difference in there, right? Well, no, not necessarily. Even if the reward system treats both estates equally, Kaelin would have beaten Rick by an even larger margin about 25.4% (0.254) of the time. For a "statistically significant" difference to arise, we instead need to get that number under 5% (0.05).

The problems with producing a stronger result are that our observed difference is fairly small, the variation in the data points is very large, and our sample sizes (especially for Kaelin's estate) are rather small. Even if our XP/resource numbers were to stay the same, I'd have to send hundreds of waves for each estate to have sufficient evidence of a difference. Considering that Rhubarb can change formulas at any time (which would render previous data worthless for future war participation), I elect to make do with the data I have.

As mentioned earlier, even if our observed difference is representative, it's not a particularly major difference. If we had expected that the number of house guards would affect the rewards won, we would be highly disappointed after taking into account the resources consumed for each wave of house guards; considering the huge difference in the number of house guards per estate (843 versus 223), if there is an impact, it seems to be negligible. If we are looking to see if there is a difference in effectiveness according to guard tower level, the effect remain unclear; the difference in the levels of the towers is relatively small (12 versus 9), so our data is insufficient to rule out that guard level has a significant effect on rewards.

Recommendations:

#1) If you want to get house guards, do it for the purpose of protecting your flow of resources and challenging other players, not for the purpose of enhancing the effect of sending your house guards to war. Using ten times as many guards to get ten times as many rewards doesn't help if you are consuming ten times as many resources to do it, and this sort of scenario seems to be the present reality.

#2) If you want to upgrade your guard tower, be advised that its impact on war performance is unknown. Certainly the guard tower is effective in protecting your resource producers, but the tower itself consumes more resources as it is upgraded. A level 3 tower carries no penalty and a level 7 tower eats up very little (-1 Food and -1 Energy). However, be adviced the penalties (and costs of upgrading) grow considerably at higher levels, and upgrading above level 9 will cost you dearly in gold, and upgrading above level 12 will cost you dearly in resources, probably more than any reasonable improvement you could hope to obtain.

As an extra note, Kaelin's estate has all of the Darkovia resource-gathering properties plus one fully-developed Storage building (and again, a L12 Guard Tower). She earned 104300 XP and 35730 Gold over the course of the war and was fairly diligent in keep invaders away. If you are considering building properties on an estate and what to know what sort of rewards you could reasonably expect to earn, these are your numbers. Keep in mind this entails considerable Token and gold investments up front, and unless you have your house swamped with guards, keeping your estate clear of invaders will also take a significant time investment (you will earn XP and gold for defeating invaders, although probably at a rate lower that your regular play style). Still, Estates do entail a particular amount of fun in your own right, but you should not look to them as an important source of XP and Gold; in fact, it may take dozens of wars just for Kaelin to break even on gold.

As another note, even though Kaelin earned a lot more in rewards, Rick had a lot more defeated enemies. Yikes!



My hope for this (limited) study is that helps players make informed purchases regarding some mysterious elements of estates. However, I also hope this information allows people to have a relatively-informed discussion on the direction that estates should take.




Hagen -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (5/22/2009 12:07:25)

Captain Rhubarb once mentioned (before the system was implemented in fact) that the average number of guards and army wins may be somewhat proportional to 1/player_level. It's also worth investigating.




Kaelin -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (5/22/2009 13:59:07)

Well, if I account for XP and Wins, the lower-level character (Rick: L96) gets 1.290 times as many wins per XP as does my higher-level character (Kaelin: L108). The ratio of their levels is 1.125, and squaring it yields 1.266, so in the event the number of wins is along the lines of what you suggest, it's likely proportional to 1/(level^2).




OnuaNuva -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (5/27/2009 0:46:08)

Okay, as of Friday last week I have spent 2400 tokens on house guards (3400 including the tower), for a total of 562 power per this guide: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=14534541

Note that minus the rare/seasonal Candy Golem guards, this is as cost effective as is currently possible.

Currently, adding up all of the 'Gold' guards, you can get an additional 360 power, bringing my grand total up to 922.

Furthermore, my Guard Tower is at level 8 right now, and I am in the process of getting it to level 10, at which point, due to the cost, I will leave it at for some time.

I was wondering just how many tokens one is expected to pump into guards to reduce invasions to 'almost never' or at most 'an average of one per week'.

Captain, I understand your hesitation to release the exact formula, but I really wish to know what the total power level of guards needed with a level 10 (and each level above 10) guard tower.

So right now I'm willing to guess that the total expected is 4,000-6,000 Z-tokens (approx $15-$20 USD), which at highest effectiveness covers:

Guard tower (1,000)
Gold Guards: 360 power
Token guards:
3,000 tokens allocated for guards:684 power (highest non-rare, guardian assumed efficiency)
5k tokens allocated to guards, you can add at max 389 power to that, for a total of 1073 token power.

So, from 4k to 6k tokens we get:

1,044-1433, a large gap to be sure, but from my point of view, if the total required power for adequate home defense would require any more than 6,000 tokens, some system reform is in order.

Over the last 24 hours, my house was attacked at ALL FOUR attack times. I would expect at least some benefit to owning my guards, but I honestly see none.

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I find this ridiculous.




Fisto -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (5/27/2009 15:45:56)

Keep training your Guard Tower, eventually the attacks will become slim, if not obsolete.

Also keep in mind that at level 8 it has the equivalent of 1600 levels of guards and at level 15 it's 3000.

There is always the option of buying a few more higher leveled guards when available.




GoYankees -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/12/2009 1:28:16)

Has anyone done the math on whether upgrading the trade hut is worth it?

It costs 267,200 gold to upgrade from level 1 trade hut to level 12. This takes you from getting 168 for 300 to 300 for 300, a savings of 132 resources per trade.

To send your army via Mega World Portal costs 500 energy, 250 food - 750 total resources. Roughly 5.7 trades would yield the resources for one extra sending of the army. Assuming the army nets 1500 gold per send, which has been my average in my limited use of it, and it would take around 178 times sending my army to make back the money for the upgrades. To get that, I'd have to make about 1,015 trades.

Is upgrading the Trade Hut really worth it? Are we ever going to make enough trades to make it possible? I've already made my upgrades, but hindsight is 20/20 - will we ever make enough trades with the trade hut to justify the price we pay to upgrade?




etching -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/12/2009 1:47:44)

^^^ I don't see a reason to upgrade the Trade Hut past level 10.
That's because you get a two-level bonus for trading 300 at a time, which is pretty much every time for me.
So trading 300 at level 10 (300:276) is the same ratio as trading 25 at level 12 (25:23).

The difference between level 10 and level 12? 180K gold and 8% resource penalty difference per trade.
IMHO, Not worth the cost for me, so I didn't go for it...It only takes 87K to get to level 10 which is good enough for me...






JMill -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/12/2009 2:12:30)

To be quite honest, you could probably make that argument about the estate system in general. IMO currently, estates are something more for higher level people that have the gold that they can afford to spend on an estate (as opposed those characters who could better use that gold on their stats and equipment). I don't think that you're supposed to be seeing quick payoffs.

Also, keep in mind that the function of the trade hut isn't limited to just helping to send armies to war, and it's likely that we'll see even more uses for our resources when kingdoms are implemented. One of it's functions is facilitating the initial estate set up, in a sense you're paying to level up your estate faster, which to many people is worth at least a portion of the upgrade cost.

As far as the portals go, upgrading to some extent is well worth it, especially given that we can have even bigger estate rushes, but the last few level costs for several estate items are quite steep. Although in Etching's case, he can talk about resource ratios, but we all know it's just that he doesn't have enough gold to afford it. [;)]




Captain Rhubarb -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/16/2009 16:54:15)

I want to let everyone know that I'm very busy working on WarpForce right now.
Along with all my normal duties (ballyhoo ads, payment system integration, etc)

So, I won't have any time to work on AQ housing until late July or August.




Little_Edge -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/20/2009 23:29:58)

Anyone other than me notice that if you have the Forest Mansion Estate (or whatever it's called...the largest forest estate), you're essentially screwed with Energy? You can only have one thing that produces Energy, and it produces 10 max. This means your Museum and other energy burning buildings steal all your Energy if you level it high enough.




SIGMUND -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/21/2009 5:59:08)

Captain Rhubarb designed the two top houses with different limitations to make us choose a different strategy of resource management. Energy for the FME and Wood for the DME.
Fortunately the Trade Hut allows us to balance the resources. Particularly at level 12 where the Trade is 300 for 300.

I would like to see a level 15 Trade Hut where you can really fine tune your resource balance by trading 25 for 25. But the upgrade cost from 12 to 15 would be horrible, unless you keep the estate for a long time and make many, many resource Trades.

lvl 13 300-300 and 150-150.
lvl 14 300-300, 150-150, and 50 to 50.
lvl 15 all trades at a 1-1 ratio. (If the Captain was really good to us this one could even trade 300 to 310 [:D] giving us 10 extra resources to eventually offset the cost of the upgrade) or this level could allow character to character Trades? )




etching -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/21/2009 6:06:05)

>lvl 15 all trades at a 1-1 ratio. (If the Captain was really good to us this one could even trade 300 to 310 giving us 10 extra resources to eventually offset the cost of the upgrade)

That ain't gonna happen...Think about it --- just keep trading 300 food and wood back and forth
ad infinitum and soon you have 1000 in all resources. Might as well dump all the resource buildings
at that point since you don't need 'em anymore...





Isphus -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/21/2009 14:31:46)

quote:

>lvl 15 all trades at a 1-1 ratio. (If the Captain was really good to us this one could even trade 300 to 310 giving us 10 extra resources to eventually offset the cost of the upgrade)

That ain't gonna happen...Think about it --- just keep trading 300 food and wood back and forth
ad infinitum and soon you have 1000 in all resources. Might as well dump all the resource buildings
at that point since you don't need 'em anymore...
actually, its worse than that.
i could, during a war, send an infinite amount of kairulian armies to battle and level up once every war. (or even more)




Ghengis -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/21/2009 14:57:23)

Instead of allowing a greater than 1:1 trade ratio why not allow a gain of a certain amount of resources per hour, sort of like receiving a return on an investment from allowing your trade hut worker to do a bit of trading and investment of his own using your resources [8|]




Isphus -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/21/2009 15:21:20)

or even a trade ratio above 1:1 PER HOUR.

the idea is: your trade hut gets a Hourly consumption of (TradeHut lvl) and a hourly production of (TradeHut lvl)*1.5.
Both resources are of your choice, but it cant be the same resource. It takes 1 hour to swich the chosen resources.

Example:
if you have a lvl 12 Trade hut you can make it produce -12 stone and +18 energy per hour.
or if you have a lvl 2 trade hut you can make it produe -2 energy and +3 food per hour.

This would kind of even out the Estates of different locations and even help at using your MWP.




Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/23/2009 16:19:50)

At the beginning of Magic Stat Trainer & Battle Stat Trainer effect:
  • You could train/untrain your stats without req a battle --> Save a lot of time

    But now you just can train your stats with req a battle --> Spend a lot of time --> example: by switching INT 200 - STR 200

    I wish that we just can train our stats as we untrain them which is faster and efficient.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong. Any comment, please? Thanks. :p




  • Ubear -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/23/2009 16:21:16)

    I'm in favour of that Mysterious Strangeface.
    It took AGES to train 200 points into INT. I wasn't allowed to use the attack button :/




    Leira -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/23/2009 18:39:35)

    OK, did MWP just get a nerf, or did the RNG just hit me hard? I sent 2 waves, and the first did 17 kills for about 1700 exp and then the next did 3 Kills for quite a bit less.




    Captain Rhubarb -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/23/2009 19:16:36)

    The RNG hit you hard. Really hard. :)

    There have been no changes to the portal and guard tower system in a long time.




    Kaelin -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/24/2009 20:29:04)

    I've collected data from two wars, and I have made two comparisons that may be of value to people considering the purchase of a Guard Tower, House Guards, and a Mega World Portal.

    Assumptions
    The XP awarded is normally distributed, which Captain Rhubarb has affirmed as true.
    The reward formulas have not changed since the start of the Absolix Attacks.

    Criteria
    XP gained per resource spent

    Properties Compared
    L9 Guard Tower (223 attack, 264 resources consumed per wave)
    L12 Guard Tower (843 attack, 1008 resources consumed per wave)
    L10 Mega World Portal (Trescol, 11 reputation, 1000 attack, 750 resources consumed per wave)

    L9 Guard Tower data summary (collected over first Absolix war)
    84 waves
    Average XP per resource = 4.095
    Standard Deviation of XP per resource = 1.147

    L12 Guard Tower data summary (collected over both Absolix wars)
    53 waves
    Average XP per resource = 4.269
    Standard Deviation of XP per resource = 1.591

    L10 Mega World Power data summary (collected over second Absolix war)
    31 waves
    Average XP per resource = 5.668
    Standard Deviation of XP per resource = 2.033


    1) L9 Guard Tower v/ L12 Guard Tower
    Adding my new L12 Guard Tower data with my older data, I (again) compared the L9 Guard Tower with the L12 Guard Tower. Because of its higher level and significant guard advantage, I expected that any advantage would favor the L12 Guard Tower, so I conducted a 1-tail T-Test and found an alpha of 0.245. As such, I still do not have evidence to support a claim that a L12 Guard Tower with a major House Guard advantage is any better than a L9 Guard Tower in war participation.

    2) L12 Guard Tower v/ L10 Mega World Portal
    I have taken both wars of L12 Guard Tower data and compared it against my new L10 Mega World Portal. I did not want to presume an advantage for either side, so I applied a 2-tail T-Test and found an alpha of 0.00183. As a result, I conclude that a L10 Mega World Portal with sufficient reputation is superior to a L12 Guard Tower for war participation.




    Stephen Nix -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/24/2009 20:34:18)

    Think about it this way...

    Tower = 3 resources needed plus a huge amount of 1 (food)

    or you can take the portal

    Portal = 2 resources with small amount from both and the ability to make a big boom still!... I believe the decision is obvious!

    Plus with most places Energy is the easiest to get in a Darkovia house where as a Greenwood house would give a larger amount in food.....so I guess it just depends on where you live!




    Kaelin -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/25/2009 3:33:38)

    That way of thinking only works as long as the "boom" holds a similar size, which you would only be able to check if you had information to verify such a thing. To the best of my knowledge, Captain has kept such information a secret. While I had not discussed it in my previous post, the "1000" attack power for the Mega World Power overstates the rewards you earn from it, so do not trust the listed attack power too much -- the MWP did not produce any more than rewards per wave than my L12 Guard Tower ("843" attack) did. The methodology used (t-test) is not something everyone would know, but there are good reasons I used it (such as ruling out that one of my properties got a little lucky). It's very scientific!

    As for "where you live," you can use a Trade Hut to more or less make all resources equal. A Trade Hut that has been upgraded to a high level can make resource trades for little or no penalty.




    Sugar -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/25/2009 8:00:51)

    Really, the biggest problem with guard tower is that it SHOULD be better with enough guards. Thinking about the token investment involved, you really should get better rewards using afully upgraded tower with even just nerfkitten scion and nothing else.

    MWP + 2 paintings and 11 rep = 7500 tokens

    GT with a decent number of guards = 10K+ tokens.

    It just seems that there should be more reward with sufficient token expenditure with guards......




    Everardmanse -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/25/2009 8:38:39)

    Except that the gaurd tower performs another important function besides attacking in war, while the portal only has one function.




    Wyrm -> RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion (6/29/2009 14:35:00)

    Personally I'm loving my estate. I just bought it and a mess of goodies to play with and it's a load of fun. The whole idea of having exclusive content is a great idea as well, it limits people from simply buying the best of every item and creates a different dynamic to the entire system. i just wish there was more limitations and more option. Maybe houses located within clan territories that each have a specific speciality or something...*ponders*

    I like the windmill idea for energy that's something I might tinker with when I have a break from WF.

    Excuse me for being naive but what's the point of arranging your house guards¿ Don't your visitors have to face them all anyway¿


    Art On!




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