RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Luster Bladewarrior -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 19:45:08)

I'm perfectly fine with subraces having more power, but they should get more drawbacks as well aside from vampires or werewolves wanting to hunt you. I'd love to have an add to encounter pool of powerful Dragonslayers/Vampire Slayers/Paladins/Fur-hunting rogues...?
to counter the power the subrace grants as to have an in-game effect. Aside from wars too, that is^^. Cutscene interaction could be nice too, but that's a bit harder to do properly I guess....

Otherwise it is: Become more powerful at the great cost of nothing.

Also, staying with a subrace for long time should be rewarded IMHO. If a vamp turns into werepyre turns into dracopyre then I'd expect them to be weaker than before initially as that messed up the power growth like with Safiria and the player can't use the powers well yet.
Of course, that sets the upper Vamp bound to at least 70.....Which means that following being tier 1, Dracopyre upper bound should be at 130 or something like that.

Other way would be in days the character has been one reducing damage taken/increasing damage. Probably logarithmic, like Berserker or sth. Expect with werewolves, as their power doesn't grow with age.



Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 19:48:37)

It's ironic that you say that becoming more powerful at the cost of nothing (which isn't the case, as subraces need to be trained in order to become more powerful) is a problem and then go on to suggest a subrace addition which (besides royally screwing over werewolves) rewards you for doing nothing. <.<



135 -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 22:08:45)

I'm not so sure about the tiers idea. I think high leveled player should have to choice to effectively use "base" subraces, although maybe with a different version of the armor.



Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 22:16:36)

There can't be "equal or stronger than more advanced tiers" versions of armors and still have advanced tiers of armors make sense. At some point, the base class has to run up against a ceiling to their growth potential.



135 -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 22:23:55)

I don't think subraces should work the same way as classes. Like, imagine a 3-way subrace war.

(In GGD thread...)
Player 1: lulz! We Dracopyres r teh pwnage!
Player 2: Ya were 1337 pplz!
Player 3: Whos a Dracopyre?
(All the experienced players raise their hands)

Not to mention disappointment for all the Were-King / Safiria supporters. To a degree, it's almost like dividing the Paxia clans by level. (ie. Aerodu=lv. 0-30, Geoto=lv 31-60, etc)



Zephyros -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 22:25:49)

...Didn't I say this wasn't a debatable point? Dracopyres are stronger than werepyres, which are stronger than vampires or werewolves. Period. Full stop.

It's theoretically possible that an ancient elder vampire is stronger than a newly-turned Dracopyre, and he's certainly stronger than the dracopyric ghouls that players below level 70 can become. But at the peak of their power, the above power structure is true.



135 -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 22:52:07)

How about tuning the Plevels, so Vampire/ Werewolf has no bonuses, Werepyres have +1.5 Plevels, and Dracopyres have +3 Plevels? At increased costs?
Perhaps not the best idea, but I'll let you guys decide on that.



Zephyros -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 22:52:33)

What?



135 -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 22:53:10)

Like, Werepyres get half a Mastercraft bonus and Dracopyres get a full Mastercraft bonus?



Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 22:53:14)

*Tilt* That formula would only seem to apply if the armors were intended to scale forever. They're not.



Luster Bladewarrior -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 23:04:13)

@Chii: Thing is, werewolves would start out as more powerful;)
However, that addition would mean that the player who remains loyal to his subrace for longer time is more powerful and wouldn't gain power from quick change into a new subrace as it messes up their power structure even if Dracopyric beings can grow far above than Vampires.

Of course, that is kinda moot since the equipment shops haven't been updated in quite some time, but that way players who didn't run after every new piece of equipment would get rewarded for remaining loyal.

And training is different, when I mean nothing I mean just getting bitten by cursed one - where is the supposed scorn and the disadvantages that Gracefang, Nightreign and WolfWing all talk about? I'd expect that there are some downsides to it.

As for the growth, the worldsetting suggests that vampires start out weaker and grow stronger with age. However, training with the powers got to increase them much more rapidly - but actually having to wear the armor wouldn't be a bad idea for the training guest for thematical reasons.

But good catch:p



Zephyros -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 23:07:51)

Anything based on raw time is inherently unfavorable to new players, and we're not proceeding with any plans along those lines. The only fair measure is experience level.



Tristar Nexus -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 3:53:03)

This is a bit of a side point but I found it really funny that Darkovia broke the mage pwn warrior law of RPGing. Safiria is the only one who uses magical abilities out of the Darkovia titans and she is put directly below Wolfwing - a brawler.

The fickle point to make would be to ask what level Safiria is. If she's a level 200 vampire then allowing players to have level 150 vampire armors seems justifiable. If shes only a level 150 creature I guess there will be no vampire armor about level 110. I think going with rule of thumb here a player should be able to get a vamp armor of level equal to the strongest non-Safiria vampire opponent in game. I'm not sure what level vampires go up to but this seems to be "canon safe".

The last thing I'd like to bring up here is the question of what is power? If a werewolf headbuts a dracopyre hes probably going to regret it in the morning. The thing is that while Werepyres and Dracopyres always seem to (as far as I've seen) physically block attacks, I seem to remember seeing vampires and werewolves dodge the attacks instead of knocking the attack aside. This seems similar to the warrior debates that used to go on in the forums where it was debated that we should get a high level warrior class that literally shook the landscape with every blow he dealt. The AK's answer was that this was unrealistic and what we got instead was the assasin, a warrior of less strength then the what people had asked for but enough prescision to make up for that lack of strength with some hectic skills and aimed attacks. In Darkovia people just got the powerhouse warrior they were hoping for :). That said is it not possible that a lesser cursed creature would be able to "assasin style" its way to the same armor level as the more powerful dracopyre. Unless dracopyres are not only stronger then the other curses but also faster, more dextile, more cunning and more sneaky - in which case I'd like to state that someone broke the cannon.



Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 11:32:31)

And a thorn could have killed Carnax if it lodged in just the right spot, but somehow I don't think a 0-1 damage weapon will kill Carnax 1-on-1.

RP reason it all you want, but in order to have logical power progression amongst the subraces, you can't have tier 1 armors which are equally or more powerful than tier 3 armors. Period.



sir lane -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 12:52:14)

^ that... wouldnt make sense anyway...



RedEyedDrake -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 14:41:49)

That still leaves the problem of there being no (completly objective) reason to be anything less then a dracopyre. The only purpose vampires, werewolves and werepyres serve game-wise-and-from-that-point-of-view is to be stepping stones to getting dracopyrism. Then again, the same could be said about lower tier classes too.



Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 14:43:09)

Is that not the case for the tier 3 classes, too? Or the highest level mastercraft sets? Or any piece of equipment for that matter? Do you mean to tell me that any item above level 1 is detrimental to inventory customization?



Tristar Nexus -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 15:11:53)

Sorry Chii, I dont get what you saying :/
I think you talking about the mage vs warrior point when you refer to RPing, not sure about the thorn. I dont see how the weak weapons fit into it either, unless we talking about people who haven't figured out how to change weapons yet - though I agree completely that no passing rose bushes were going to take out Carnax.

You said that lower level dracopyre armors were released to applease the masses? Are vampire armors going to be stronger then the lesser dracopyre armors or will the low level dracopyre armors still be stronger then the equivalent low level subrace armors (the ones that aren't ancient vampires)? Finally no ones arguing that a tier 1 armor will ever be stronger then a tier 3. Thats why we call it tier 1 and tier 3 respectively - cause 3 is higher. Any subclass armor available at level 90 would be considered a tier 3 armor. Being a level 90 armor is after all what defines a class armor as being tier 3. Bring out a level 120 Dracopyre armor and we'd call it a tier 3.5 armor. I dont see how the tiering has anything to do with the discussion of how powerful the various curses can progress. The only thing that seems to matter here is game canon. Game canon states that other subraces will never hit as hard as Dracopyres and will probably lack their resilience. Canon (or rather Chii's comments) have stated that Dracopyres will not benefit fromt he same level of regeneration as werewolves or the same level of life stealing potential as vampires (which was brought up in a "title" bonus discussion). Raw power is not the only concept behind a fighting style, if AKs want to make it that way its up to them. I'm just regurgitating arguments that AKs brought up in other debates and random other facts that appear in game.

... this is annoying. I cant even find the place in game where it says Wolfwing or Nightbane were stronger then Safiria. Just a whole lot of Safiria saying its not time for her to fight yet. Would it have killed the vampire queen to be a little less vague when talking :/



Traveler -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 15:48:14)

Since the issue is that some players (including myself) would like to keep the "Vampire" or "Werewolf" tag in their profiles and still be able to use the highest level dracopyre abilities at (more or less) full potential, I was wondering if it would be possible to make the subraces even more akin to classes in that front. I mean being able to switch subraces -once trained- without losing the use of the abilities (the title bonus would be lost when changing to another subrace, of course).

For instance, train as a dracopyre under Gracefang and then "defect" and go to offer your services to Safiria without having to "cure" yourself first, thus being tagged as a vampire despite having the powers of a dracopyre (just as you can fully use your paladin abilities and still be tagged as a necromancer). I understand that this is more problematic than with classes, since the conflict between subraces has been played more on the storyline than the conflict between classes (although one could make a case for the pirate/ninja or even paladin/necromancer grudges being almost as noticeable as the ones in Darkovia), but there could be played up as cases of traitors and double agents.

There would still be room for keeping the impossibility of mastering both Gracefang's and Nightreign's branches of Dracopyre, by somehow pointing out that the powers of both forms are completely incompatible.



Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 15:54:43)

Traveler: Safiria says she's not inclined to trust you since you're not a vampire. In addition, a vampire is not going to be able to transform and use a dracopyre's powers for an obvious reason -- they're not a dracopyre. ._.



sir lane -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 15:58:39)

just a qestion... whats a vampires weakness? like wolfbane to a werewolf/lycan?



Traveler -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 16:04:18)

I know that currently it is impossible to do as I mentioned. But I think that there would make sense on the storyline that the leader of a losing faction on a conflict (like Safiria on this case) would take the risk of accepting a defecting member of another faction, specially if he brings bigger powers to her side. After all, Gracefang and Nightreign do not seem so distrusting of vamps and weres (they have some on their side during wars), so Safiria, the Wereking and Wolfwing could take note of the advantages of that flexibility and accept dracopyres on their armies. You would still be a dracopyre, but you would "work" for the vamps, weres or werepyres and appear as alligned with them.

This would not work on continuities were the subrace leader sires you more conventionally and bounds you to his/her will (to an extent). But we have never had any hint that in AQ being part of a subrace forces you to allign with it on any sense.



Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 16:11:50)

Hrm. Given that the subraces are moving in a direction where it's two large factions instead of multiple smaller ones (Nightreign vs Gracefang, both wanting to unify Darkovia under their own banner with their own means and ends), what subrace you have is almost irrelevant to what side you're on anyway.



Traveler -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 16:17:11)

That is a good point. But, precisely for that change of focus on the factions at conflict, it could make sense to give the players some more flexibility on subrace titles, just as there is on class titles. So not every level 136 who wants to optimize his characters would have to be a dracopyre, just as he doesn't need to be a paladin/necromancer/assassin.



Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/9/2010 16:18:59)

No, it wouldn't. Because while you can be currently exercising one profession or another at any given time, subrace are what you are. You can't be a vampire and lean over and exercise the draconic powers that you don't have.



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