RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Zephyros -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 14:16:59)

You mean "more knightly" than... plate armor? Um, I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas of what a knight looked like, but many art museums have exhibits that include suits of armor, so you may want to check with your nearest one and pay them a visit.




Tristar Nexus -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 14:22:31)

Seeing those plates of armor brings about a really weird point. People were smaller back then. Seeing people on horseback would have thus been a lot more frightening.
...
Knights should have a "Mounted mode" in which they got to ride a horse until their SP ran out, then they'd have to walk. Probably not practical but it would be really funny.




Mordred -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 14:23:04)

Yes, I understand exactly what plate armor looks like. I really like Maximillian Plate, honestly. But, Knight Armor and the monster Knight look radically different(IMO). I guess I'm asking for the two to be more consistent with each other.




Nessa Ellensse -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 15:40:48)

knight should not need mana at all




Mordred -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 15:41:14)

It should use SP, you mean?




Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 15:41:20)

It most likely won't be using it when updated, depending on what sort of skills it gets.




Tristar Nexus -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 17:23:53)

@Mordred: Just checked the knights skills, I think skill 7 changes the armor to match the monster knights armor.




Mordred -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 17:25:54)

^Temporarily...
I mainly find the helm and visible undergarment at fault. What's the point in wearing plate armor if you're going to leave such a weakness that's easily slicable unprotected?




xDanix -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 17:31:08)

Here's my top 5
1) Assassin
2) Necromancer
3) Dragon Slayer
4) Ninga
5) Beserker

I've changed my class and stats sooo many times lol




SSdio -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/7/2010 17:44:20)

i remember the knight armor's arrow assault, it's what made me choose the hybrid build for my main.




lh47 -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 1:41:17)

quote:

You mean "more knightly" than... plate armor?

No offence, but since when has AQ strived to make its art realistic? The only remotely plausible armours currently in game are all the low level ones (eg Steel Plate)




RedEyedDrake -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 13:56:57)

Since the sweep will include defining vampires and werewolves as teir 1 classes, werepyres as a tier 2 class and dracopyres as a tier 3 class then maybe adding dracovamps and dracowolves as tier 2 classes in addition to that would be reasonable. Gracefang and Nightreign can serve as the donors of the draconic blood required and that, on top of simply adding dracovamps and dracowolves, will add even more variety in the shape of gracevamps, gracewolves, nightvamps and nightwolves. Furthermore, I heard that banepyres will become available, so wichever in-story means will allow that will also allow the existence of banevamps and banewolves aswell.

In addition, this might raise the need to coin a collective term for all "children of the night" species and their versions. I suggest "midians".




sir lane -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 14:38:27)

for some reason... i want a class that has explosions [:D] NOT a suggestion... just a "want" thing




Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 14:40:23)

While I do want and have some preliminary work toward advanced versions of both classes and subraces, there are a few rules of thumb I've been exercising.

1) Minimize overlap of tiers. An advanced version of one tier shouldn't completely replace a higher level tier.
2) Higher level tiers should retain a purpose to be trained. A tier 1 class shouldn't completely overpower a tier 2 class, much less a tier 3.
3) There should be roughly as many advanced versions of one tier as of another. The growth potential of a basic Fighter is not liable to be as high as, say, an ArchKnight.

When added together, this means that in a nutshell, there are only so many advanced versions which could be created, and they couldn't cover every level span.




Tristar Nexus -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 15:39:12)

@Chii: The only problem I have with your points is the fact that sub-races are supposed to be aligned with tiers. If this is so you are saying that some subraces will be without a doubt stronger then others. Unlike classes your subrace should be a personal choice of what you choose your character to be defined as. This is not to say that choosing a subrace will not affect the bonuses or style of play with a subrace armor, its just to say that such a personal choice should be split into clear tier levels.

Its like asking a player to develop a character, then shatter it if they want it to remain usefull :/




Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 16:08:51)

In-game examples seem to indicate that Safiria is not as powerful as Wolfwing, and that Wolfwing was not as powerful as Nightbane, so I would debate that all subraces should have equal tiers and be equally powerful across the board. Aside from which, it's better when things have progression in power -- gives you more incentive to level up.




bluchill -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 16:34:10)

just wanna throw my .02¢ in

I support what Tristar Nexus says, a subrace is a part of the character, Safiria, Wolfwing and Nightbane are individuals, they represent the race and/or are its leaders, they are powerful on parallel planes not progressive planes (even though, more or less, each started out as the other)
so yeah, races shouldn't be progressive rendering a race useless at a higher level because the player unlocked or has access to better skills in a different race at certain levels

I bet Safiria has some tricks of her own... she is very old, isn't she? that gave her time to gain power and knowledge... Nightbane is more of a physical powered creature, so the differences among them make them unique as the races in AQ should be :)




Zephyros -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 16:41:01)

No.

It is established in-game that Wolfwing is more powerful than either leader, and Nightbane is more powerful than all three. Safiria and Constantin are also the most powerful known members of their races. Ergo, some subraces are quantitatively more powerful than others.

This isn't a point that's up for debate. This is Law.




Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 16:44:15)

I'm not against there being higher level versions of Vamp and Lycan or of Werepyre, but... fact is, there would be higher level versions (than those) of Dracopyre. Most dark creature lore has it that the offspring of the creature can never be more powerful than the creature itself, and in most cases noticeably less, so if Safiria and Constantine are not as powerful as Wolfwing, then it stands to reason that Wolfwing's most powerful offspring would be more powerful than Safiria and Constantine's.




Tristar Nexus -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 17:05:24)

True. But that said your character is not as strong as Safiria nor Wolfwing nor Nightbane. Who's to say what the descendants of titans will turn out to be or whether they will be remembered for the curse they bear or the talents they bring.

There will be times when dracopyres slaughter entire packs of lycans, there will also be days when a lycan takes down a dracopyre. Dracovampires will fall to the very maidens they served besides from time to time. Safiria will never defeat Nightwing. Hero's will forever seek out the power of the Draconic lords of the night. Having seen what they are capable of, the way the ground shook beneath their feet, most will forsake whatever path they chose to become dracopyres. This is not to say that other paths could not yield as much power.

For the more technical side of things, the number of ghoul level dracopyre armors seems to invalidate your insentive clause. I would still prefer the random attack scheme to the "pay for your options" armor we have now. Also seeing as people aren't informed that the last tier of the armor gives these options people will probably miss this incentive anyway (unless they enjoy clicking through item descriptions which always seem to have the same wording anyway).

If the other sub-races are redone there is no reason to not make them high level as well. You can start adding the class skills in earlier armors and only get the full range when the armor hits its highest tier, this is just as good an incentive as your tiered race idea - better as people get carrots all the way through instead of ony when they hit really high levels.

There are 3 things that make up a persons avatar in any RPG. Their name, their allignment and their being. The first thing you ever do in any game is name the character you will portray. Throughout the game the choices you make affect that characters alignment and through the equipment they bear, the arts they train in and the sigils or curses they pick up they come to be unique beings. While all else in a RPG is open to change their are three things that should purely be the players choice. Name, stats and personal progression. Forcing people to choose some strange triple condition to keep an aspect of their avatars existance useful is equatable (as far as I'm concerned) to giving the player a list of Staff designed names to use for their character and penalising the players who choose to make custom names.

You said yourself that higher level dracopyre armors might come out. I'm not sure what changes will be made to justify the power increase. Perhaps the dracopyre will have a bucket on its head. My point is that there is no reason that the same cannot (or should not) be done for any sub-race. And if one high level sub-race armor is considered motivational, I see no reason that 4 high level subrace armors would be less so.

EDIT: Three posts sprang up while writing this :/
Our character is portrayed as being unique. No matter how powerful any creatures offspring is, it can be assumed that the personal warring expertise our character brings to the fold will increase their effectiveness as any given fiend. An odd point to make about power here. A vampires ability to blend through shadows (or whatever) against a dracopyres breath attack. The breath is way more powerful upfront but first off the breath is limited in how powerful it can get as its bound to the curse, sneaky shadow move with backstabbyness is bound only to the quality of the weapon you carry - which is not affected by the curse. An important point to make is that raw power (while always being more pwerful, rawly) can be matched by weaker, sneakier or mental abilities. Vamps are all for sneaky and I can think of several cases where a wolf would be able to out manuvour a dragon.




Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 17:14:50)

Frankly, the only reason the low level dracopyre armors exist is because we need to provide a release for lower level players as well. That's why they're not mini class armors like the level 70 version. In addition, this exclusively provides an argument for lower level versions, not higher.

And for the third time, I am not opposed to higher level versions of the subrace armors. However, an Elite Vamp is not going to be as strong as an Elite Dracopyre. That's established as canon by the game. We're not overriding that and winding up with a ghoul Vamp who's stronger than Safiria, let alone Nightreign and Gracefang (who are supposed to be the ultimate predators in Darkovia).




afterlifex -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 18:10:54)

Since there has been talk about the mythical "elite" class versions...has this idea ever had more thought then "maybe" or "possibly"? I know doing them is bit difficult given time constraints and the few lvls/people it would affect(I only see tier 3 classes as needing "elite" versions since they have no upgrades). But is it been more then a some day.

It also raises the question why wasn't the dracopyre sub-race done above lvl 90(or even an armour)?(just would have seemed like a good time to expand sub-race(s))




Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 18:12:34)

Dracopyre barely happened as it was; we were working until late, late hours on Thursday morning.

I'd say the chances are good, but I'm not going to commit to a "yes, definitely," because otherwise we get exactly what you just said. "Well, why not NOW?"

The answer always boiling down to the same problem... "Time." Specifically, a massive lack thereof.




afterlifex -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 18:19:38)

That's good enough for me, Chii thx[;)] all I wanted was an answer to my confusion on the sub-race...you know we all looove you "guys".

& if I don't misunderstand you, you're saying it's had some thought put into it but don't count your chicks before the hatch just yet anything can happen?




Chii -> RE: =AK= Ultimate Class Discussion Thread (11/8/2010 18:50:35)

I'd be willing to upgrade it to "Probably yes, provided nothing happens to nix the plan," but it's something that needs a lot of internal discussion to finalize the details before it can be done. Merely having the opportunity (such as releasing a new or updated class) isn't in itself good enough.




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