Cookie-Cutter Builds (Full Version)

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goldslayer1 -> Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 14:58:36)

alot of people have been complaining about the 5 focus saying its now nerfed and this and that.
and then other players are saying others aren't good because they copy builds.

well i would like to explain why there are so many Cookie-Cutter builds in ED.
when a player makes a successful build and mops the floor with the other player, the other player is most likely going to copy the build.
but how is it done? when we click each others profile in battle they we can see each other's builds.
IMO that should be removed, if players cant see our builds, then they cant copy them.
so players like me who originally started using str tac merc when delta was first release wouldn't have to deal with others copying our builds.


so the question is
do u think that we should be allowed to see another players build?
should the option to see builds remain or go away?
or should the option of seeing(possibly copying) the build in battle remain but removed outside of battle?

please discuss
all forums rules apply, and try not to go off topic (if it may seem like its off topic then explain how it relates to the topic. i dont want to see this get locked.


EDIT:
added "or should the option of seeing(possibly copying) the build in battle remain but removed outside of battle?"



Stabilis -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:04:48)

There are certain things we should see:

-Character name and level

-Faction

-Rating (stars only)

-Health

-Energy

-Primary weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

-Sidearm weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

-Auxiliary weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

-TOTAL defence

-TOTAL resistance

-Your battle record



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:05:00)

do u think that we should be allowed to see another players build? Yes
should the option to see builds remain or go? It should remain

If we cant see oponents build we cant counter them , this will kill strategy completely

Here is my opinion to counter ot make difficult to copy builds

quoted from another post
quote:

I think there should be a master rank for all classes that allow 1 more skill that player choose , players can reach that rank by giving 10,000 tokens. When a player reaches Master Rank they can choose a skill that they want (Bloodlust - Berserker - Malf etc.) this will increase variety in classes. Also after class change they should give 10k tokens again to get that class's Master Rank so it will be a hard thing and will not tolerate easyly copy builds that makes classes seem OPED.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:10:23)

quote:

There are certain things we should see:

-Character name and level

-Faction

-Rating (stars only)

-Health

-Energy

-Primary weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

-Sidearm weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

-Auxiliary weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

-TOTAL defence

-TOTAL resistance

-Your battle record

ill cross out what i disagree with

quote:

-Primary weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

-Sidearm weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

-Auxiliary weapon damage (THE WEAPON'S BONUS ONLY)

for this part i have to disagree aswell. players should already know the weapons bonus without having to check the profile. its called being astute.

@turk
IMO it will make more creativity and stop the cookie-cutter builds.
i do understand what u mean about the strategy, but if u had strategy then u should be ready for anything. this will make players use their brains more. (mages should benefit more from this)



altimatum -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:13:14)

how do you read to defeat a build without knowing the stats?





Ubear -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:13:16)

And if I can't see their build.. how would I know how to beat them? I don't want to have to guess their defense/resistance, stats, and skills. Not a good idea imo



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:14:26)

No build is original. Cookie-Cutter builds are builds proven to be successful. Everyone will copy other people's inspirations and success', because if the work has already been done, why invest more time to experiment.

Should a player views another's build, indeed they should. It is foolish to think any build requires ownership. This is what your getting at.


Everything has been done before, and will continue to be revisited and updated.



altimatum -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:15:41)

^
there's not really any new groundbreaking builds anyway... creative ones yes, but not anything revolutionizing



Celestine -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:15:50)

During a battle, the stats and skill tree should remain.
We all rely on checking our opponents stats to help us win the match.

The only players that would not care if we did not get to see each others build would be those abusing strength, mainly TLM.
Since either way they will use the same strategy.

Out of battle, our builds should be hidden.
This is where most of the copying takes place anyway.

-Celestine



DeathGuard -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:19:06)

Jzaanu: I just made a malf+plasma bolt and it is working really good, its not unique but not many used it [:D]
Celestine: Great idea [;)]



goldslayer1 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:19:35)

@altimatum and ubear
well u should be ready for anything. and a good build with have balanced attacks (for example 2 energy and 2 physical attack options.)

@jzaanu
well i can understand what ur saying.
if a build is successful then no doubt it will be copied.
however i do feel that if this was fixxed about being able to see builds, then matches would require real strategy.
plus u can already tell someone's def/res by how much damage u do on them compared with ur attack.
and u can tell whats their offense by how much damage they on u.
so is its really about strategy and being smart if u want to be able to play.
this will make the strategist and good build makers shine out from other players who cant make good builds.



altimatum -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:25:29)

^ no one wants to go around guessing wether that build looks like an str build or a support build... what's the point in countering anyone if you can't predict them?
Celestine's idea is actually pretty reasonable so people can't hang around world 7 and copy builds, but doing this in actual battle will never see the light of day.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:30:31)

If all aspects of this game were equal Goldslayer, then your idea would be ideal.

With all the issues with enhancements, and true balance problems with all classes, it opens the door for extreme abuses of strength or support. The stats and skill tree is nothing more then a line-up, how the player wishes to use is the hidden strategy.

Much like athletics, we use our eyes to view how the opponent lines up, and other visual keys to help in preparation.

Sadly, this game can never be like Checkers or Chess.






goldslayer1 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:30:32)

@altimatum
well u can calculate their offense and defense (note: ur brain is required alot more in this part)
by the ammount of damage u do with physical or energy is what will help u determine an estimate of their defense/res
the amount of damage u receive will help u determine their energy attack and physical attack.
its all in the damage calculation formula.
and it would require alot more strategy than u think to win a battle.
also u can tell what type of build the enemy will be using by the items they wear.
so deception will be a very useful tactic if this happen

quote:

Out of battle, our builds should be hidden.
This is where most of the copying takes place anyway.

i agree with this. however i still like to point out a few more things as to why in battle would be good.




DeathGuard -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:36:15)

Anyways people always can copy your build by taking a screenshot in battle :/ This is kind of disgusting because someone spends time retraining and then someone comes and takes the credits [:'(]



goldslayer1 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:37:15)

@cyber
agreed lol


@jzaanu
well do u think heal loop would have been so over used at the time when it came out?
i doubt it if this happened, people wouldn't know what strategy to use or what build.
and they wouldn't be able to copy it. so heal loop (or mages) wouldn't have been nerfed in the first place because only some were using it.
and players like xendran would still be playing heal loop.



altimatum -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:39:14)

@ gold

you need that kind of info going into the battle, imagine how frustrating it would be to waste a move just to stat check them instead of getting on with a strategy on how to kill them.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:42:00)

@altimatum
its frustrating to people who will really rely on it.
but those who can calculate an estimate of their def/res and offense will be the true strategist of this game and they.

and whats frustrating is going into battle and seeing someone with ur exact same build.



iluvwatermelon1337 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:42:22)

Yeah goldshock, let's hide everyone's stats so that we walk into a battle blind! Seriously, where do those brainwaves of yours come from!?
Copying builds isn't as easy as you'd expect what with all the different amounts of enhancements and types of equipment involved. Don't act all high and mighty thinking that only YOU could come up with a build; such concepts are pretty simple to figure. it's all a matter of mastering it, which face it, as long as you got the Varium, isn't too difficult.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:44:21)

Reason that build became very efficient was because of the stat buffed weapons, and also the lack of players not willing to expand their builds for passive play.

That build was altered not due to balance, but boredom.

As I mentioned prior, if I have 90 stats I am using, and my equal level player is also using 90 stats, then the possibility is open if we are both the same class.

This game is always in trial and error mode. My apologies GoldSlayer, I am unable to agree.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:46:32)

quote:

Yeah goldshock, let's hide everyone's stats so that we walk into a battle blind! Seriously, where do those brainwaves of yours come from!?
Copying builds isn't as easy as you'd expect what with all the different amounts of enhancements and types of equipment involved. Don't act all high and mighty thinking that only YOU could come up with a build; such concepts are pretty simple to figure. it's all a matter of mastering it, which face it, as long as you got the Varium, isn't too difficult.

first my name isn't goldshock

and copying a build is easy. as long as u have the items, its possible.
saying theres problem with copying build doesn't make sense at all.
altho the idea may seem crazy (specially to those who copy builds)
i just dont see this as a bad thing. u will have to "guess" their def and res but so will ur enemy.
and u can roughly tell the type of build the enemy will use from the weps ur using.

if it cant be removed in battle
then it should atleast be removed out of battle like celestine said
quote:

Out of battle, our builds should be hidden.
This is where most of the copying takes place anyway.



DeathGuard -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:46:56)

Mages still have hopes and better with this buff, I'm using a plasma bolt build and I win 8/10 fights it works really fine but it just needs strategy, if someone wants to fight me pm [:D]



Wasalu M. Jaco -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:48:46)

But what if i want to know my opponents strategy so i could counter it?
i wouldn't be able to do so with a hidden skill tree...not supported



iluvwatermelon1337 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:50:46)

My apologies goldSLAYER, I suppose the out-of-battle scenario makes sense but within a battle, NO. It would make gameplay too abstract and MAYBE for strength spamming "tactical" mercs who smoke then bash, this wouldn't be a problem; however, for everyone else, this is a problem.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Cookie-Cutter Builds (8/3/2011 15:51:19)

quote:

But what if i want to know my opponents strategy so i could counter it?
i wouldn't be able to do so with a hidden skill tree...not supported

ur opponent wont know urs. so ur both in the same situation
the winner will be the one who improvises the best.
and thats the real strategy.



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