RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (Full Version)

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frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/26/2011 13:57:52)

Crits are illogical, pointless, and counterproductive to achieving balance.



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/26/2011 14:12:17)

I tried to make a thread of it, but got rerouted here
Here it is:
The main reason for crits according to the devs was so that lower-leveled players have a chance against high leveled players. What I observe is the opposite. As you have known, the new balance update has made the max crit chance 20%. THats about one in five attacks but recently I've got critted twice in a row against a level 33 varium player with about 40 more stats than me. So he's about 10 levels higher in stats.

Now, Let's talk about the percentage it ignores. I'm pretty sure its 50% as of the new balance update. Now lets imagine a scenario that often happens.
level 33 support tact merc vs. level 28 non-varium bh
1st move:
bh does 3 with smoke
support tact merc hits bh with zooka, doing 45
bh heals for about 30
support tact merc crits with multi, doing 57
bh crits support tact merc (miraculously) for a damage of 17.
bh dies with crit gun from support merc


Discuss if you find crits logical, and how they could be changed to help lower levels.
So would a crit even help a disadvantage f2p 5 levels below the support tact merc?
I don't think so. Point proved that crits do not help lower-levels win against higher levels.
The logic provided by the devs often backfires, as shown in this pretend scenario.



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/26/2011 14:24:42)

Well like most other games , I believe crit occur in a same way in ED which is named Pseudo Random Distribtion

In short:
More chance = More crit ... but in a random oder .... this is the logic

For me crit makes the game interesting .... as it may occur anytime during the game

I luv the new concept for crit in the last balance



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/26/2011 15:40:44)

Well, of course they make sense in other games, but this is epicduel. And the logic not as in how, as in why?


EDIT: Btw balance will never be reached when you are able to enhance up to 32 stats, I say cap the max enhanceable stats at 14.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 9:48:59)

Another Idea to give BloodMages a certain buff
-Remove the Support requirement on Deadly Aim
-Assimilate back where it was

and please don't come with the junk that BM would be Op'd then,
Tact mercs might not have Deadly aim, but that allows them to
keep their Sup at base thereby training more in Defences and health/Str

the removal of the Sup requirement on Shadow Arts might be a good buff for BH aswell as for
CyberHunters



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 10:00:06)

^maybe you should find a way to win without spamming stats.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 10:01:43)

Tried that, Doesn't work against Stat spamming Tact mercs ;)

hell, stat spamming now doesn't work against stat spamming Tacts



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 10:05:32)

^Yup their super Oped



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 10:09:06)

hence why I suggest for removing Sup requirements on Deadly Aim and Shadow Arts

BM:
DA - able to make stronger Str builds
TM:
DA - They use Support builds anyway so No loss for them

BH:
SA - Weaker Massacre can be compensated by adding more in Str or be more defensive against Str Tacts
CH:
SA - see above

Do I favor Stat spamming? No
Should we be able to Stat spam seeing the Tact merc can do it? Yes



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 11:02:36)

Block chance could be lowered from 4% min to 0% , because low dex ppl block our blockable skills too much

Ex:
I got 40 dex advantage but the min block chance 4% makes me block my rage 6 lvl Frenzy or Max Berserker(with 45 energy)

Low dex ppl block the strategical moves too much this should be lowered.



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 11:07:14)


Like I said earlier

quote:

Well if the testers and Devs are thinking of buff .... coz there are too many TLM and so they cant Nerf them .... then they should do the following and two upset class BM and BH will be happy

Since its not possible to go through TLM defense dat cause them to have less life steal (Blood Lust) ... Blood Lust should be buffed:-

Level 1: 16%
Level 2: 19%
Level 3: 22%
Level 4: 24%
Level 5: 26%
Level 6: 28%
Level 7: 29%
Level 8: 30%
Level 9: 31%
Level 10: 32%


This can solve all problem



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 11:07:19)

how to nerf all tlc mercs.

1) change technician into blood shield or energy shield

2) move reroute and smoke to tier 4

3) reroute to have a energy requirement( eg 42 energy for lvl 1 reroute and it increase by 2 energy every time. so a max reroute will require 62 energy)

4) skill tree reshuffling to be like this:

Tier 1: Field Medic,double strike,Hybrid armor
Tier 2: Maul,blood shield/energy shield, frenzy
Tier 3: atom smasher,poison grenade,Artillery strike
Tier 4: smoke,reroute,surgical strike

will post the link skill tree soon kinda hard to post using a phone so i rather use paint and make something




voidance -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 19:28:40)

Well I couldn't make a thread about it so I guess I'll post them here. These are my personal thoughts on how to balance the classes out.


Tactical Mercenary:
Reroute having a Strength Requirement. (For tactical mercenary only)
Hybrid Armor having a Support Requirement. (For tactical mercenary only)
When you use either Frenzy or Field Medic they both go into cooldown.
Remove Atom Smasher and replace with something else, not sure what though.


Mercenary:
Reinstate the 10% Defence ignore on their Multi. (For Mercenary only)
Reduce Berserker's Energy Requirement.


Bounty Hunter:
Lower Shadow Art's Support Requirement. (Before it was needed, but ever since the Strength skill's Nerf it seems overkill)
Slight Buff to Massacre. (Maybe Increase each level by 10%, like level 1 would give 60% instead of 50%)
Make EMP Bloackable.


Tech Mage:
Remove the Support Requirement on Deadly Aim. (Since Strength isn't that popular with this class anyways.)
Give Bludgeon a 10% or 20% Defence Ignore.
Increase Super Charge's Health return to 40% or 50%. (Seems like a lot but it takes alot of Energy and Dexterity to make Super Charge effective)


Cyber Hunter:
Remove the Support Requirement on Shadow Art's. (since it's their only Passive)
Slight Buff to Massacre. (Maybe Increase each level by 10%, like level 1 would give 60% instead of 50%)


Blood Mage:
Lower Deadly Aim's Support Requirement slightly. (Instead of it starting at 24 it would start at 20)
Reduce Berserker's Energy Requirement.
Allow Super Charge to combine its 30% Health return with your Blood Lust. (Seems fair since we have to invest our skill points into Blood Lust and not to mention it's for 1 shot)



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/27/2011 20:09:17)

There is really nothing that Oped about the tact merc by itself. It is Oped because it is backed up by too many enhancement slots. Too much enhancement slots is the main problem.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/28/2011 7:24:05)

First we had to deal with strength abusers that got taken care of once then it returned and dealt with again. So now the stat that has not been dealt with is support abusers and that seriously needs to be dealt with.

The tact merc has two things of power that improves with support Aux and Artillery strike and to increase the damage smoke which makes the Blood Mage to be at a huge disadvantage since we can't increase our damage, waste energy to increase protection, and have no real energy return.

To add they say they did not give malfunction to the Blood Mage because of the increased damage would have made the Blood Mage unstoppable so what they should have did with intimidation is made it debuff strength, tech, support for the Blood Mage only without increase damage because it is truly unfair that the Cyber Hunters and Tact mercs both have something to increase damage while the Blood Mage has none.

So since the Tact mercs continue the unfair advantage by abusing support now either bigger diminishing returns need to be put on support and Auxiliary as well as bigger requirements need to be put on Artillery strike.

Remember this tact mercs and other classes you bring this upon yourself.



phycocat18 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/28/2011 8:14:24)

quote:

First we had to deal with strength abusers that got taken care of once then it returned and dealt with again. So now the stat that has not been dealt with is support abusers and that seriously needs to be dealt with.

The tact merc has two things of power that improves with support Aux and Artillery strike and to increase the damage smoke which makes the Blood Mage to be at a huge disadvantage since we can't increase our damage, waste energy to increase protection, and have no real energy return.

To add they say they did not give malfunction to the Blood Mage because of the increased damage would have made the Blood Mage unstoppable so what they should have did with intimidation is made it debuff strength, tech, support for the Blood Mage only without increase damage because it is truly unfair that the Cyber Hunters and Tact mercs both have something to increase damage while the Blood Mage has none.

So since the Tact mercs continue the unfair advantage by abusing support now either bigger diminishing returns need to be put on support and Auxiliary as well as bigger requirements need to be put on Artillery strike.

Remember this tact mercs and other classes you bring this upon yourself.


Funny you should say this, because back when heal looping tech mages rules it was the merc that was the most UP class. Merc and BH went with high str builds to counter the massive frequent heals. Some merc went the supp route because there was less risk of missing. So If any class brought anything on themselves it would be the mages. I'm not trying to troll or flame just stating a fact. You get energy return with RB when you are hit. The dev aren't going to give any class both reroute and blood lust. And your arugment about AS is not exactaly vaild now that all multis are scaled the same. As for the aux, every class's aux increases with supp. You also have palsma caonn which is an energy bunker buster which a merc loses when they become a TLM.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/28/2011 8:34:47)

>Funny you should say this:

quote:

You get energy return with RB when you are hit.


Reflex Boost = Increased Dex
Increased Dex = Higher Block Chance
Higher Block Change = No Energy return
not to mention Higher Dex = Lower Damage = Lower energy regain ( 15% )

quote:

and your arugment about AS is not exactaly vaild now that all multis are scaled the same.
As for the aux, every class's aux increases with supp.


Indeed every class Aux increases with Support but Merc and Tact Merc are the only ones of which Multi
increases with Support aswell.



phycocat18 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/28/2011 9:05:42)

quote:

Reflex Boost = Increased Dex
Increased Dex = Higher Block Chance
Higher Block Change = No Energy return
not to mention Higher Dex = Lower Damage = Lower energy regain ( 15% )


That would mean less need for energy since blocking would be better.

quote:

Indeed every class Aux increases with Support but Merc and Tact Merc are the only ones of which Multi
increases with Support aswell.


BH -dex, mage -tech merc-supp. BH useally have high dex for blocking. Mages useally have higher res. than most classes. Seems the multis fit the stat most commonly used . Personaly I've never found support to be usefull for a merc because aux had a 3 turn cd and my gun was weak unless raged.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/28/2011 9:13:14)

quote:

That would mean less need for energy since blocking would be better.


Again false because then you'd need to train even MORE energy due to RB not giving enough energy back...

Sup >>>>> Tech and Dex

Tech= Increased Resistance + Increased Bot damage
Dex= Increased Block + Increased Defences
Sup= Increased Crit + Increased Rage + Increased Deflex + Increased First strike



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/28/2011 9:50:37)

The mage class never brought anything upon themselves because for one healing does not increase the powerof anything, the mage had to heal loop to last longer in battle. They took away the mages power when they took supercharge from three strikes to one strike and it does not reduce rage as surgical strike does two strikes and reduces rage.

The Blood Mage has nothing to increase damage, has the sorriest health and energy regain and can only rely on dex, tech, and actual armor for protection without using energy again without using energy as to the Cyber Hunter and tact merc has things to provide extra protection without using energy and when I came up with the combine armor idea oh no that would make the Blood Mage overpowered so as the other classes can have that extra protection the Blood mage can't have armor to cover both defense and resistance.

Intimidation is a joke because it affects only one stat and does not increase damage. Because of players high resistance Plasma Rain is still weak
even at max and no weapon or skill that does not use energy improves with tech. They made sure that the Blood Mage can't abuse any stats with max deadly aim by putting a 42 support requirement but they allowed other classes to be able to abuse stats by having low requirements on their offense skills.

So phycocat18 here is the

Comparison of multiple strikes tell us who is getting screwed over

Single strike
Improves With: Technology (+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 5 Technology after)
Weapon Required: Staff

Double strike
Improves With: Support (+1 damage at 22 Support; +1 damage per 4 Support after)
Weapon Required: None

Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage per 5 Dexterity)
Weapon Required: None

After using the Blood mage in battle since day 1 I came up with these ideas that players don't want the Blood Mage have becaue they say it will make them overpowered but it will not do such but give the Blood Mage a competitive edge in all battle modes without nerfing the other classes.

First, we have to get rid of the linked skills between classes because of the merc class Berzerker basically got nerfed affecting the Blood Mage class, they could combine technician with the dex increases of reflex boost but not the energy regain because the other skills will have energy regain.

Second, the Blood mage needs energy stealing capabilities.

Third, the Blood Mage needs better health and energy return.

The Blood Mage is the evolved form of the Tech Mage and should have skills to match the evolution: From http://www.epicduelwiki.com/index.php/Blood_Mage "Blood Mage, The evolution of a Tech Mage."

Another new skill to replace the linked skills can be the
three strikes of Berzerker combined with the Bludgeon as the final strike
it can be called Taz, the punisher, or the quad strike. With these skills
for the Blood Mage it will break one link from the three classes.

HELO (Health Energy Life Overseer)
If blocked by opponent no health return
If you block opponent no energy return
Energy Required: 0 (passive)
Conversion:
Level 1: 12%
Level 2: 15%
Level 3: 18%
Level 4: 21%
Level 5: 23%
Level 6: 25%
Level 7: 27%
Level 8: 28%
Level 9: 29%
Level 10: 30%

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 5
Improves With: None
Warm Up: None
Cool Down: 0

Return Assimilation back to the Blood Mage but with HELO selected you don't regain energy but it needs to cool down of 2 and take away as much energy as emp since it can still be blocked but when HELO is not selected then with Assimilation you get back either
multiple time the amount of energy or a percentage say 70% or lower.

Evolved Assimilation (no energy return if HELO is selected just energy drain)
HELO (evolved reroute/Blood Lust)

All you Blood Mages need to wake up and realize there can't ever be any balance in this game and the other classes don't care about anyone but themselves and really do not want to see any other class get improvements to help them be better competitors in all battle modes.



frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/28/2011 13:13:52)

Crits are a terrible addition to the game and are counterproductive to achieving balance. Sad part is, it's worse now. (Thanks Balance Team.)

Players with 36 less Dex should NEVER block two times in a match.

Min. chance to block should be 0%.

This game is still broken.



Giras Wolfe -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/29/2011 23:34:59)

I now have first hand experience with the Cyber Hunter class. I have tried high strength, dex, and support builds. My conclusion? This class just doesn't have what it takes. It has wide-open defenses and minimal ways to sustain HP. Static Charge is inconvenient, hard to use, and relies heavily on strength and dexterity. The attack order is a mess. To take full advantage of static charge, you'll want to use it as often as possible. That's 2nd turn at least. But if you have a high support build (which you'd better, because there's no other way to recover HP) that delays your axillary until the third round. Planning out energy is frustrating. Neither static charge or shadow arts are effective enough to hold the class together. Adding negligible buffs to static charge isn't going to fix the class. There are many options to fix this.

1) Promote Shadow Arts as the core passive. First rename it to "camouflage armor," then restore the boost to deflection rate (for a total effect of +10% block, +10% deflect, +10% stun chance.) and remove the stat requirement. This should provide the defensive power to stand in for bloodlust, reroute, or hybrid armor and bolster all types of builds.

2) Add hybrid armor in the place of cheap shot (or even in the place of shadow arts.) The extra defense would improve the classes survivability to a more viable amount.

3) Make static charge passive. I am unsure, however, if the max % should resemble reroute or bloodlust more closely, but I would propose 25% at max. This would help immensely with support builds and allow for a far more effective turn-by-turn strategy.

I can see why the devs are afraid to give this class a decent passive. Static charge in conjunction with a passive would be a formidable force indeed. But nowhere near as formidable as a hybrid armor/reroute combination that you had no qualms releasing for some reason.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/29/2011 23:51:11)

quote:

The Rage Meter

The "Rage Meter" in battles was introduced with EpicDuel Beta Version 1.0.2.
What is the Rage Meter?

The Rage Meter was designed as a counter for highly-defensive builds (tanks) as well as a counter to players that repeatedly consume packs while waiting to use their ultimate skill. A player's Rage Meter increases each time they attack an enemy and each time they receive damage. When the Rage Meter fills completely, all of the player's attacks will inflict increased damage for one turn.


^ Sourced from EpicDuel Wiki.


I personally appreciate the rage concept as a disruptive edge to battling. I think we need more additions like this and then we can erase the luck concepts.



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/30/2011 0:23:09)

How about that the chance of blocking decreases after a block, and the same with deflection. That would make more GG's.



supermasivo -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (8/30/2011 5:04:49)

I dunno how 27-28-29-30 +38 can hit over 40-50 rages or criticals on my 38+10+13 resistanse. ¬¬
u ED admins shud nerf support builds NOW! critical hit still making massive damage and heal looping is really annoying.



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