RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (Full Version)

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Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/11/2011 3:57:08)

^ I completely agree with that,
And this is not the only thoery

I had made a theory as to why it is exactly hybrid that makes the specific str TLM build so easy/lazy/and effective

quote:

Before enhacemnts spaming build had a limit of power, they could spam to get great power but at great costs such as low defence low HP etc.

After enhacements the same spaming standard can be achieved with high defences, high hp etc.

This became a problem so stat diminishing was created wich counteracted the expansive enahcemnts in the first place meaning HOW ON EARTH ARE THEY A GOOD THING if it was the same bonuses given from stats before and after enchacements but unfortunatley these things (agialaity, forcing of focus, stats diminsihing, requiremnts..although this one does basically nothing) must continue to counteract the problems of abusing of piling, which in my opinion only occured after enhacements but Ill let you guys decide how you think it started.



However stat diminishing was not enough, people still abused the extra gained power from piling without weakness and so came the requiremnts, constant requiremnts which have solved nothing as piling with extreme defences and High HP is still easy! even with requirements the extra stats from enchacements will always leave piling being abused even if they has a 5 focus build!

SO the end factor is now either enhacements must be removed which will never happen, so what else is left to do? take away the High HP (atempts to do this include agailty). Yet their is still problems , piliers can still have extremly high defences (such as TLMs) leaving how I got my end stance of needing to trade hyrbid for DM to make it ultimaitly return to the times before enhacements.

As you read this I hope some of you get an enlightining when you realise hey this is right, and anyoing balance features such as agialty dimishing stats and the need to become focus is a result of piling being abused with enhacemnts.

So if we take the constant high defence from the TLM then perhaps the pilling builds will become less of a problem for that class and no more requirments would be needed infact they could be removed.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/11/2011 4:10:15)

I believe, sooner or later, when ED reach a "limit" it will hit this wall and have to change. The question is: how long must players suffer and how will they change it? Seriously, stat is the root of every problems. Stats are fuel, skills and gears are engines and players are the drivers. Just fix it already! I know this is the hardest part in game for staff to touch, but trust me, ED last awhile, sooner or later it must change stat when hit a wall. It's just so useless "patch" this and that unless we can have a good stat system.


1st what to worry about stat? Stat abuse! Yes this should be considered in every math, if I skip any, remind me.
2nd is skill. Well I think we can change skill after stat so no worry
3rd are gears. Technically we have some "broken" formula tx to our items. Example, damage might need to be reconsidered as well as Def/res from Armor. Bot "must" be changed too. Change from stat hardly effect gears but gears badly effect stats because those items are made base on old system.


I will throw down some "major" issue here about the imbalance between each stat.
STR: Ok this stat is so flawed. It's a "perfect" stat because you can cover both Element (Energy, Physical) tx to the gun. You in fact gain a lot of Rage even with stupidly low Sup. You don't need Sup at all, different from other stat which need some of other. At a "peak" you have insane damage that if enemy don't defend they surely die because they just can't catch up, that's "STR defend" which is so broken - it makes STR perfect stats when you max it = Stat abused

DEX: A surprisingly broken stat. To be effective you must get way too much of it (compare to TEC), and when you get a lot of it it become so broken because of Blocks. It's both weak and strong, not OP just strong. It's strong because Block... I don't have to tell u how bad Block is in this game right? right? It becomes a stat that BOTHER both users and enemies because it's so expensive and annoying. The most broken thing about Dex that it scaled after Stat Process (which at higher process gain less Def) BUT NOT BLOCK? Wtf this is so broken. You still gain good amount of Block with stat abuse = Stat abused.
Note: If any of you guys good at math, draw a function chart, a line is good in a chart because it gives less stat abuse, and look at block, it went top north. Block not only gain higher value when having higher %, but it also getting % without Stat Process scale, which break this horribly.

TEC: Arguably the most OP Stat in-game... if you have a bot. I believe this is why staffs don't even dare to make bot >.> Ok look, it gains better point in defense than Dex because it starts with more so at higher value Dex has more problem getting defense. So weirdly, this get advance at low process, but lose to Dex at higher process, defense wise (just because Dex is more "lucky"). So at a perk, it's balanced. When people reach high level they complain about TEC being weak = staff put bot in with so BAM imba. Bot gain damage from Tech so technically it's a bit like support. This make TEC stronger, hardly compare if it's OP or not, but Bots are overpowered (look at below for Bot analyze). Tech is hard to abuse itself, but HA covered it...

SUP: Oddly I would say Sup is balanced. It only OP because of FM which was nerfed. Sup is ok, but it's biggest problem? LUCK! In a game where you can kill people in 2 hits (AKA STR MER) Sup is something so silly. Chance to go first, Crit, Stun, Deflection... what did I say about Block? Those % ARE NOT SCALED! So abuse Sup is like a MUST when you play Sup because you gain a lot!

HP: Technically it's so broken... it's so broken that they have to bring Agility in game only aim at high lv player. Technically, ED staffs only care about STR DEX TEC and SUP and totally forgot about HP and MP. So instead of making real balance, they make it "rock paper scissors" between few elements and stats. I just point out that they skipped a huge part. Here's why: Armor give you Def or Res, STR give you both and at higher level you gain more Skill Point which you can spend more on Element Switch skill. So at higher level, you can only easily cover 1 Element and easily focus on 1 Element so the HP lose from being attacked by wrong Element is BIGGER. Which lead the the fact: You have too much HP at low lv and too less HP at high level. Idk where's the balance point, but it's changed. At higher lv ED will be broken because of HP. Also Crit and some other stuff effect the HP limit. At low level it's like "do all damage you can do" and at high level it's "hit enemy at his weak spot", you can clearly see the change between low level and high level. Also Crit effect badly because it apply the same at every lv, make it stronger at high lv (because your HP is static).
About HP, you should understand terrible terrible damage theory. It should be increased by level to balance the wide range of Luck and Element Seeker, staffs forgot about this I believe, or MP didn't do what they planned with. The reason why it get nerfed mainly because of cooldown (AKA Heallooper and STR build). They are static, the solution become.... HP should be static too.

MP: This thing is so... bad that most people don't even know what to do with it. You know why? We have 4 Stats per lv... we can scarify 1 on HP but rarely 2. And Mp is not that good anyways. I believe ED staff had forgot MP as a stat, but a "requirement". I mean... really do you want to pay 32 MP for a skill that do exactly damage as your weapon but unblockable? (speaking of Plasma Bolt) and different from stats, that MP VANISH when you used it. Also MP is so so vulnerable to MP damaging skill and to the flow of battle! It's the most risky stat ever

If you care to read, you will notice all stat scream "ABUSE US" (beside MP). If you play balance, you are ok, you can deal good damage and base on skill and possibly bot. If you play abuse you are ok. If you are somewhere in the middle? DOOM.
This is very uncreative and it's very bad for ED.
Also you can notice I press strongly at % effect, namely Block, Crit, CTGF, Deflect, Stun... which are not scaled after stat process. This is very broken, making them scale will reduce Luck greatly. No more 55% Block.
The game has become either "abuse" or "balance" and no where in the middle, uncreative. What I meant... we can't destroy abuse, it's so wrong. We just need better stat system.


Stat is effected by many things currently in game. They prevent us from "fixing" stat. They are, as mentioned, skills and gears.
I should talk about gears first, as it effects nearly directed to stats. I will list every problem we have here:

Defensive items vs offensive items: So in fact we have only 1 defensive item: Armor, while having 4 offensive items: Primal, Gun, Aux and Bot. The different that Armor is static passive while you must use other 4 each turn. So here's the deal, we get like 1 Defense (from Armor) vs 1 Offense (from weapons being used in 1 turn). And the problem that using Element Seek (mean hitting enemy's weaker Element) the Armor won't have impact while Weapon do. The the "extra damage" will be 0-4, averagely 2, each lv (Note: for now I won't count Gamma Bot as 2 Elements)
This explain few things: First, this is why HP is so complicated, the fact that we need more HP to cover from Element seek. Second, this is why you can, and must get armor at high level. At low level if you get armor it would be so... darn long: this proved how broken this problem is.

Bot Ok just get this straight, this thing is so OP. It has 10-14 base damage, it gets damage increased like STR SUP, it has up to 30 Focus damage, it has a skill. So compare to other, it has 10-14 more damage than any other type of attack but skill. It uses TEC, a completely fine stat (technically) until they add Bot damage. Gamma Bot cover both Element, which is so so broken as explained above. And Nerf Bot totally support Abuse build. Out of everything, Bot is the most imbalanced equipment. I think it's very bad idea to have equipment with different power level, they should be balanced and are just tool for stat to influence with.

Primal - Gun - Aux Ok, the major problem I don't like about the difference between them is how "damage" and "stat" are handed. So nearly by default, Aux has higher damage with less stats. I mean oh cmon! This is why Support was abused, it deals so high damage. I don't mind having weapons with stronger damage or having more stat on the other, but limited it! 8 damage different between 2 items is too much (look at Eggzoka). By having a limit, we can actually balance it out.

Stats per Level I mentioned this above, we have 6 stats but only 4 stats per level. Scarify 1 stat for HP is acceptable but hardly MP. If we use MP we will need more HP and leave other stat open making Element Seeker eve easier to do. This become a major issue when it comes to MP, it ended up with BH TLM "Auto Attack" style or Mer "We don't have MP" issue. Because of this, we can't have effective "Nuker" builds at higher level (which is sad).
The fact that ED players evolve enough to find trick in build. And ED staffs make this in order to create build instead of add 1 stat in each of your Stat types. But it in fact ended up being imbalanced as explained above, where higher level need more HP, lead to "Armor" issue. I'm pretty sure we can still play ED for a while, but the more we play, the bigger this issue. This "lack in stat" issue open way too many build counter build situation in the future, leading to "copy paste" issues and people will spam OP build everywhere. Even if the game is balanced, it will become a game of Luck!

Requirement Ok... these things were added to reduce the effectiveness of abuse stat build. It works! And it's a HORRIBLE idea! Remember when they were added? We have 3 classes! And we' at lv 31 or something. Now thing are changed, level side, the Requirement should be changed to adapt the new stat but we can't do that because it just take too much work! And then we have 6 classes but share same skill, it ended up that if we change this skill to nerf this class it effect the other! Waa WHY can't they just make 2 different file with same code for those skills! V.v Just is IK the creative, too flawed and rotten over time. I can understand why we have requirements, to lesser the abuse build, the make us buy more weapons. HOWEVER staffs rely Way WAY too much on this. It's a very bad idea, just a temporally solution!

Focus Read everything I just said about Requirement. Focus is 2 steps worse, first Bot is so OP Focus become new type of abuse (abuse the OPness of Bot) and 2nd, it scales very silly with Level make it really pointless and random. This is a bad result of balance being balanced in such rush way.

Range Bonus from Stat Idk what to call it, but I'm referring to the "peak" where you gain 1 Max damage/Def/Res at some point of each stat. Like this:
87: 20-24
93: 21-26
Ok... this is both a good and bad idea. Technically this force people to get on with some builds and spin around that point so when something is imbalanced, staffs can quickly detect the builds and fix it. The bad thing is... very obvious, this is the reason why people abuse stat!

Agility This is just silly. It totally killed our builds idea and still can be abused by people who has tons of stats. And it only denies our Defense instead of offense. This idea is "outdated".

First Turn Possibly the hardest to balance factor in this game. The player who goes first do good damage and get cooldown and can force people to do something else. It becomes punishment for damage dealing build so generally it's broken.

Block In a game like this... Block is so so so broken. Aw I told you above how % Effect are broken right? But Block is still so silly. It completely negative the attack an skill. It's like remove all your strategy if you have any. It's just... aw so silly, a strategicless build become better than the thoughtful one

Stun I think it's so silly, so like block. I prefer to have Stun as a weak skill so it's just for fun. Brokenly fast build really too much on this to get higher win rate.

Defense/Crit Ignore Ok now I step a bit to skill part, but here's the thing, it's just so imbalanced. Mainly because skill tent to give you a static amount instead of increase by level. They are jsut so weak at low level and so strong at high level. Image, how broken they can be at lv 40?

Passive You know what? They are not that bad, just MP suck.

A long post in my opinion about balance and the root of it. I guess I will post the suggestion later.



igfod13 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/11/2011 12:33:19)

Frenzy has a serious problem.
#1 It heals too much for the energy it costs. My friend, who has a str build, crit 72 on a non-rage frenzy, which means a heal of 35, and costs 12 energy. Level 1 Field Medic costs 17 energy and heals 33. There's something wrong here.
#2 You can rage frenzy. Rage adds a lot of damage to what NEEDS to be a limited skill. Again, this increases how much you heal, which can be a ridiculous amount. Remember: super charge, massacre, and surgical strike are all non-rageable.
#3 It overpowers a lot of other skills. Since it can heal as much as a field medic, it obviously is better than static charge and assimilate. It costs less EP than skills like cheap shot and bludgeon.

Possible solutions:
#1 Increase the energy cost. This makes fewer people to be able to use, and they do it less often.
#2 Make frenzy un-rageable. Too many people rage frenzy, and it heals too much.
#3 Decrease the amount of damage it does. Something like poison strike on bounties, where you do less damage than you would normally strike.

-okdude



Midnightsoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/11/2011 23:59:12)

I cannot say this enough, agility NEEDS to be lvl scaled



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/12/2011 19:13:38)

This is what the Developers need to do:

Tactical Mercenaries: needs a separate stat progression. They abuse the stats far too much. Switch Reroute out for Assimilation. Replace Atom Smashers' function. instead of draining EP, they do an increased energy damage attack. Smoke Screen for Intimidate.

cyber Hunters: Static Charge needs to have an extra cool down. Decrease effectiveness of Massacre. If someone maxes Massacre and maxes strength, they can possibly KO. level 10 shouldn't be any higher than 105%. Buff Plasma Grenade

Blood Mages: buff SuperCharge, Take out Intimidate, put Smoke Screen. Buff Blood Lust by 2%.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/12/2011 23:06:10)

^

BlOoD tAsTeS lIkE iRoN

Hello, kittycat,

I swear to God I thought you were Hunkinq...

I am here to support your efforts but also to advise you. It is not very productive to be so forward with the developers, "This is what the Developers need to do:". Mainly because they have a group of programmers who balance the game known widely as the balance team; the developers do not demand any balance installments unless a known problem escalates among the player-base.

Its great that you are one of many who protest TaMes as they recently became a major balance issue. Yet do not fret, they are being worked on... so you can hold your breath there.

As for cyber hunters, can you honestly tell me whether you have been one before? It takes experience (time * practical application) to understand their status. Static charge does NOT need another cool-down. As far as I can tell you, it is simply a strike... nothing more. You want to slow down energy accumulation? WHY? As if we have the appropriate skills to master with a standard cost of 18-22 energy... every 3 turns (2 turn cool down + the turn it was used). For 18-22 energy do you expect us to nail you with an AMAZING multi-shot or plasma grenade? Hellz no [8D]! That would mean we either have maxed dexterity or technology (and technology cancels out for being so useless to us). We REALLY don't have the energy consuming skills between 18-22 energy to use every 3 turns... with the exception of being a dexterity spammer and incorporating massacre... psibertus!... *sigh* I suppose I spam dex a LITTLE bit too [X(]. But multi shot could use a nerf FOR cyber hunters alone. You didn't suggest that, which you would have caught if you examined our skill builds enough. YOU ARE DANG RIGHT ON about plasma grenade though, that move is bogus (I think we cyber hunters can agree) that the damage is miniscule in comparison to the ratio of energy:damage... and the stun factor is a luck factor. IMPROVING with TECHNOLOGY... Trying to pit us into faildom if you go that path. I strongly disapprove of cyber hunters having massacre. WE CAN HEAL LOOP FAST damn it. If we can spam if we tried to make the appropriate build for massacre, it would be OP. That is, my friends, spamming an ultimate skill.

I can accept the removal of massacre for a passive equally as horrible as shadow arts!!! [:D]

Does anyone else agree upon removing massacre for a crappy passive??? I do!

Now, kittycat,

I am going to do what you should have done (not unleashed the beast).

I have never been a blood mage so I will not speak on its behalf BECAUSE I DO NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE ON IT.

Cliche, you can be the spokesman on blood mages, just don't be a hunkinq and go mad with envy/frustration.



FrostHS -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/12/2011 23:12:37)

Are you kidding me? Nerf SC? NO WAY half the time it's blocked, why would you nerf it? It needs to be unblockable,but yet unrageable. Also, Plasma grenade does need a buff and massacre needs a nerf.



endtime -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/12/2011 23:43:06)

Hybrid armor on TLMs should be replaced with Defense Matrix. TLMs already have Frenzy--a mini-bloodlust/HP version of static charge--and Reroute, they don't need a third passive.

Static Charge should be unblockable, but the damage it deals should be cut (e.g. like with BHs' Poison). Either this or Static Charge should be unblockable, but only increment energy (in this case the % of energy returned should be increased).



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 0:45:40)

@BlueKatz

Excellent post, it was a pleasure to read it all. Most of what you said is is accurately true and I hope such rationales are brought to surface within this balance thread.

I have to say that in my experience, support and strength are the most OPED stats employed in common abusive builds. Normally, focus builds, high dex or tech builds are not regarded as oped since they're considered to be more conservative and passive stats (stats that increase the defensive traits of a character).

To further add to your rebuttal: This can be seen in High Strength accompanied with smoke debuff builds or High Support with Artillery Strike/Malfunction builds. Surprisingly, I think the reason why such stats have been rendered powerful is because the stats are seldom nerfable:

- Strength can only be debuffed by intimidate which seldom users have in their builds and only a certain amount of users can do so (Mercs + BHs)
- Support can only be nerfed by the varium "Doom" weapon promo which only has a 10% chance of occurring.

Thus stated, these stats are the most OPED out of the 4 stats. Arguably, I would have to say support is the most overpowered since it's effects are instantaneous - random % increase in rage, chance to deflect, stun or not be stun, etc.

Moving onwards now, support is losing its "double edge" effectiveness (ever since the heal nerf on common support builds). Strength is overruling and overpowering and now, we're seeing strength spamming builds which have a towering effect on normal focus and other builds.




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 3:16:00)

greenrain13, one, don't swear to God, two, don't put a players name in your post if they have not posted in a past couple of weeks or in a post that they have not posted in. This is my first post in this balance discussion.

Since Smoke is here to stay with tact mercs then for the Blood Mage new skills need to be incorporated
and with these new skills it will not only make the Blood Mage an Aggressive form of the Tech Mage.

You say HELO will make the Blood Mage Over powered but what NPC has both Blood Lust and Reroute, starts with a T
and ends with an N, how many of you have beat him?

Intimdation, Reflex boost, and berzerker will be replaced with better skills

Another new skill to replace the linked skills can be the
three strikes of Berzerker combined with the Bludgeon as the final strike
it can be called Taz, the punisher, or the quad strike. With these skills
for the Blood Mage it will break one link from the three classes.

HELO (Health Energy Life Overseer)
If blocked by opponent no health return
If you block opponent no energy return
Energy Required: 0 (passive)
Conversion:
Level 1: 12%
Level 2: 15%
Level 3: 18%
Level 4: 21%
Level 5: 23%
Level 6: 25%
Level 7: 27%
Level 8: 28%
Level 9: 29%
Level 10: 30%

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 5
Improves With: None
Warm Up: None
Cool Down: 0

Return Assimilation back to the Blood Mage but with HELO selected you don't regain energy but it needs to cool down of 2 and take away as much energy as emp since it can still be blocked but when HELO is not selected then with Assimilation you get back either multiple time the amount of energy or a percentage say 70% or lowerand call it Essimilation.

Evolved Assimilation (no energy return if HELO is selected just energy drain)
HELO (evolved reroute/Blood Lust)

For the shield it can be called Guardian and when used it increases dex(defense) and tech(resistance) at
the same time that way the Blood mage don't have to waste two turns to get that extra protection
and the gaurdian still helps improve the stats that other skills improves with.

For a debuff skill how about, restriction, where it debuffs all stats but the stat with the largest amount
of points gets the largest debuff and enhances energy damage.

Field medic - fire ball - Guardian
Plasma Cannon - HELO - Plasma Rain
TAZ - Restriction - Overload
Essimilation - Super Charge - Deadly Aim

Why keep nerfing one class which affects the original class but instead they need to enhance the class that they not only short changed but also has the least amount of players because it is not as strong as it should be.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 3:16:46)

@xxomegafaustxx tx for reading :P when posting it I know people don't read long confusing post anyways.

The reason why STR and SUP are that strong because of "Counter". It's like the old Heallooper where you can have builds to beat them but useless against anything else. If you use intimidate you won't be able to kill other builds beside STR abuse one (even though STR BM get better at it) or debuff enemy's SUP (if we have any) is useless vs STR DEX TEC abuse one. Meanwhile if you abuse any stat even if it's HP, you will be damaged if enemy nerf your DEX or TEC

SUP is still very strong now, fighting them mean I get at least 1 crit in battle, or 1 deflect if I dare to use gun. Their damage from +39 Aux is just overkill.
And STR has become something must use now, even Mage. Unless you can abuse other stat, STR is the essence stat you want because it can do anything



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 3:20:27)

@hun
try a BM build full tank
decent defense and physical armor
and a crap ton of tech (130) have 94 hp. after 130 tech put the rest into str
use lvl 7 BL, max energy cannon, and max plasma rain. the rest of skill points into DA.

this build also works for team matches (but will require a little bit more energy)
u can also lower down all of ur stats by a certain amount and make it 4-5 focus if u want.
i have not tried it yet but it seems like it can dish out alot of damage while tanking.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 3:36:26)

I agree bluekatz

I think having very few to no counters apart from maybe luck then that is what makes a build Oped.

Take for instance the STR TLMs sure they dont get as high win% as some builds but they have very few counters and the reason why thier win % is not as high as it should be is because of the frequent blocks, in most cases.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 3:54:37)

quote:

Personally I think requiremnts are the worst kind of balance adjustment.
They are slowly ruining the game in the long run..
Just you wait soon their will be nothing left but focus builds all because of the pointless requiremnts.

Requiremnts are often used in this game as a last resort or as a asurance that they are trying to fix balance but guess what, it's making it worse.

More to the point when have requirments ever fixed it's intended problem??
Can anyone think of a time when requirments have actully solved or eased the problem they were made to fix??
I know I cannot, past events show that requiremnts didnt stop str BH and requiremnts didnt stop TLMs and that they will continue to FAIL except for the fact of making an anoyance an restricting creativity.



WHY OH WHY DO THEY CONTINUE TO PLACE REQUIREMNTS ON TLMS.
I am almost feeling sorry for the class, soon everyone of their skills will have requirments almost pratically forcing them to SPAM enhacements which the devs often assure us arnt always needed.
WHY I simply dont understand how requirements can help make TLMs balanced when it is not just one thing that makes them oped.
Thier str Build is not the only thing taking advantage of their skill tree, every build is.

It's their skill tree that is the probelm and adding pointless requiremnts will do almost nothing except ruin the future of this game this i can assure you.
You know what the way the balance has been approached towards TLMs has made me want to defend them.


I actully understand why now the TLMs are mad they must being think wow I would much rather 1 proper change then a million anyoing requiremnts and I dont balme them.

If it were me I would Remove all requiremnts and attack the problems within balance head on rather then attacking it braudly.
EG. switch hyrbid for Defence matrx but as a compromise remove all their requiremnts and make frenzy a sword/club skill.

Why is it that builds are forced to become balanced? I know that the thing I often enjoyed about the game was making wacking spamming builds an creative builds.
If spamming is becoming a problem fix the problem not the whole art.
eg. spamming support led to oped heals so support improving heal was removed (brillaint way of solving the problem rather then trying to forse us to be balanced follow this example)

If spamming strength becomes a problem look at why it is that it is such a probelm.
Pherhaps its the combination of first shot stuns? in which case add a warm up to maul.
Pherhaps it is the frquent rages strength abusers obatin in which case lower rage build up for str spammers.

These are just little example of what should be done when encountering problems not destrying creativity.

What do you guys think?
Do you think requiremnts are pointless? if not why not?
Also do you think that they are abusing requiremnts if not why not discuss.

Here is the reasoning of another froum member called razackie which I completely agree with.

Fact is, the requirements are little more than an annoyance for players packed with Varium, buying every weapon and armour and enhancing it so that they can still have a 5 focus build and have over 100 of whichever stat they like. Sure, non-variums can buy enhancements too, but spending 100k+ credits just to get 1 weapons fully enhanced seems like too much of an ask, only completely dedicated non-varium players can afford such an insane price. Once they've managed to get those 100k credits after at least 1000 2v2s or double the amount of 1v1s, I'm sure they'd have lost interest. Basically, the stat inflation issue is contributing more to the requirements than anything else, not the skill trees in my opinion. However, not much can be done to sort that or the balance between Variums and non-Variums, besides perhaps lowering the price of Credit enhancements.

Creativity is probably the most enjoyable aspect of the game, and I doubt the game will withhold any of that creative aspect if it continues down this path. Requirements ARE necessary, otherwise it would just lead to excessive spam of Strength / Support... Perhaps they need to be tweaked as to actually hinder these spam builds more rather than just force people into using 5 Focus builds and just compensate by amassing enhancements. I suppose from a business point of view, it will make money on the short term, but on the long term the balance issues will break the game entirely and make it more difficult to fix.

Perhaps bots could be used for the sole purpose of debuffs. Perhaps debuffs could lower focus if it makes the stat go below 45 instead of having a fixed value of focus (for example if strength was at 60 (including enhancements) and the rest were at 45, if an intimidate of 16 was applied, the focus would be reduced to 4 instead of 5). Perhaps the values for Agility could be changed to encourage creativity instead of a completely linear path to spam of support / strength and/or 5 focus, that would lead to a game that requires a lot more strategy and thought as it used to, rather than just on gear and amount of points one can put into strength whilst having moderate defenses.

As it stands, the game isn't completely devoid of creativity, I can do well enough using a support / dex hybrid build with 139 hp as a BH. My non-varium level 32 BH has a 64.5% win ratio in 2v2 and it is improving, I can still win in 1v1 against Variums if I concentrate on what I'm doing and plan my moves and study strategies, but if the game continues down the path as it is it, it will be a completely linear game with no space for high level non-Variums or in fact, no space for any class besides Tactical Mercs and what Shaniqua once said, 'Evolve or die' will apply more than ever.

The devs need to do something about this otherwise the game will continue to go downhill until it hits a brick wall.

Placing this here incase people still wanna talk about it,
Kinda anoying how I we cant just continue our conversations in the same topic rather then place it here were it will be neglected of further discussion.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 4:01:47)

How does Massacre need a nerf? At 18-22 +31 damage, I do 4 4 6 6 5 5 24 damage = 54 damage, which is about twice the amount of damage I do normally, at level 5 Massacre. Seems fine, not overkill at all. 45 Energy? A simple EMP will make the builds go kapoof!

Make Static Charge Unblockable please. This way, CH can gain energy back for sure next turn, and also is a great finishing move.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 4:12:59)

goldslayer1, for that build in 2vs2 you need 75 points of energy and if your last like I am always in 2vs2 first opponent EMPs takes away 40 plus energy then the 2nd opponent EMPs or Atom smash there goes those skills. I had DEX all the way where it equals 32 defense and without smoke the tact merc still got 50 plus damage wit Artilery strike. I had tech where it equals 32 resistance and the tact merc got 47 plus damage with energy eggzooka and that was with the Tesla E Armor on for that one time. So the program for the Blood Mage is broken. I have tried max plasma rain with max technician and the highest damage was 47 while the max Artillery strike even with a Blood mage having max reflex boost on Tesla P Armor on got 55 plus damage without any boost. Battling the NPC Nightwraith I had defense at 26, 27, 28, 29, 30,and even at 32, he got the same damage and no blocks at each level with level 6 reflex boost on still the same damage and still no blocks.

On top of everything else I get Level 23, 24, 25, 26 as partners in 2vs2 and when I get a Level 30 or Higher, they have builds that they get destroyed easily and have no power or multi.

What may look good on paper and in a players mind does not mean it will be the same in the game because however they have the code setup now is not like it was before due to so many changes.

Players are saying take away this take away that, nerf this and nerf that, why not just give the class that needs the most help improved skills I have warned players that having linked skills was a bad idea so now with the stat requirements on reroute it will put a requirement on the tech mage that does not need any. A requirement on smoke affects the Bounty Hunter. The link between different classes needs to be broken so that each classes can be dealt with on an individual basis without affecting an other class, when players realize this then more viable suggestions will proceed an when Titan realize this then they will have a much easier job.

The new classes are suppose to be an evolved form of the original classes so make it so with truly evolved skills not copied skills. For example, for the Cyber Hunter give them a debuff skill that enhances energy damage, since their multi is energy, that debuffs support and give it a new name.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 5:01:06)

@Blue Katz

Haha no problem. I need to burn some time while I browse through the forums for some great and innovative ideas. As exampled in the high str and sup issue, I have to say these are the most controversial of stats as they provide the user with the utmost flexibility. I agree with you entirely and the post prior to which you stated how these stats are so freely used.

Allowing to much freedom however results into abuse and oped builds. Even with the constant nerfing on both of these stats, they still are deadly on the pvp level and haven't lost their sharpness.

When there's a wall, people find a way to go around it. This similar to the stat issue; users will find creative ways to circumvent the balance system = oped builds to cultivate and develop = oped class and the opness of specific skills. Thus, a true balanced system won't resolve unless everyone has focus builds (which I find highly ironic), or its black and white rock vs. paper vs. scissor competition.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 10:05:01)

We should slowly work on removing: skill requirements, weapon stat requirements, enhancements, agility, encumberance, critical feature, luck related battle features such as skills which change luck (SA)... Imagine what kinds of innovative ideas we could come up with to replace these chains? And I mean chain as in a connected flexible series of metal links used for fastening or securing objects and pulling or supporting loads. All of these chains are preventing potential and sort of... freedom.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 10:09:21)

quote:

We should slowly work on removing: skill requirements, weapon stat requirements, agility, encumberance, critical feature, luck related features such as skills (SA)...

i doubt
atleast 30% of all low lvls i actually fight now have bought some package and gotten varium. (i hate seeing lvl 30s with the same gear as me its just freaking pathetic and makes no sense)



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 10:18:56)

And the worst side of encumberance is being able to have the same STAT POINTS. Damage doesn't really matter would you agree? Its all about the stat points and they don't fully deserve that amount of power.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 10:33:10)

@green
i cant even begin to imagine the waves of lowbies with str BH. when tlm gets nerf and str BH gets ontop
str bh lowbies will dominate
why?
they have the same stats as us.
BUT they are lower lvl, so the go first every time.
when its str BH vs str BH the one that goes first already has a 90% chance at winning.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 11:09:12)

^ at least str BH are easy to counter,

Id rather vs a low lvl str BH goin first then a str TLM going first.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 11:14:05)

@remorse
really?
explain how u counter aside from something that counters pretty much everything (tank)



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 11:17:27)

Providing they start.
(my old focus build)

1. Reflex
2. robot/aux
3.emp
4. heal
5.mana boost
6.reflex/smoke
7.robo
8rage aux
9.hp booster
10. strike/gun/smoke
11. robo
12.aux



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/13/2011 11:19:26)

reflex so a tank and focus.
but u said they went first.
how do u know they will not EMP u for a -40?



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