RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (Full Version)

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igfod13 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/15/2011 2:28:20)

@BlueKatz
Great! I'll PM you the link. Also, I read your stat process, but I must disagree on you about strength. IMO, I think strength is the skill that you use as a standard for everything else. It converts the stat directly to damage, and its the easiest way to compare other stats. Also, strength is balanced by two other skills, dex and support(Blocks and deflections). The way to prevent stat abuse of str is encumbrence, which the staff has already added.

As for other stats, you have multiple effects, so its kind of like working with weighted averages. I'm going to give an example with dex. Let's say that damage increased with every 4 str, and defense increased with every 3 dex. Because 1 defense is equal to 1/2 a damage(a bit hard to explain, but its basically because you can either hit physical or energy, so its technically only worth half as much), if dex only increased defense, then 4 dex only equals 2/3 of a damage.(1/2 + 1/6) This is when you add in blocks. Since every 4 dex needs 1/3 damage more, it means that 12 dex should prevent one damage. Now, to factor in blocks, we must know how much damage is done on an average strike. I'll assume that to be 20 damage, just because its a nice number, but its also what I got when I calculated for it at lvl 34.

Now, to find how much we need to increase the block percentage, we can use 19=20*(1-Block%). 19 is used because it is one damage lost from 20. After solving for for the Block%, you get that for every damage lost, you need to increase the block percentage by 5. This means that for every 12 dex, you need to increase the block% by 5 if damage increases every 4 str, defense increases every 3 dex, and the average strike does 20 damage.

So you have to do this for all the other stats and find suitable numbers for everything. I think having an increase of 5 block% for every 12 dex is a bit to high (I think its like 3% increase right now), so, the numbers need to be tweeked. Either defense needs to increase faster to lower the block%, or str needs to increase slower.

Doing this for support would be extremely difficult since you have to factor in deflect%, crit%, rage, aux damage, and start first%, but its doable. (Just take a while xD)

Also, I think blocks are pretty necessary. It's one of the few ways to gain that extra turn back from starting second, and its the only way for weaker opponents to beat stronger opponents. Noone should have a 100% winning percentage, even if its against weaker opponents(as long as their not TOO weak).

I think the most broken thing right now is energy. Skills are way off what they should be, and I haven't really wrapped my brain around how energy should be increased, but I think it conflicts with skills as of now. (Not quite positive I did my calculations right D:)

Also, HP needs encumbrence instead of agility. Agility has the right intention, but it attacks the wrong thing. Encumbrence should solve the problem.

Just my thoughts.
-okdude



Jekyll -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/15/2011 2:29:15)

TLMs, for all their contribution to class-abusing, should be rewarded with a nice, Tier 4 skill which will make them feel extra special - Shadow Arts! Since they love complaining about getting blocked, they themselves should block more too! Its just what they want. *shrugs*



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/15/2011 2:45:59)

Tier 4? It should be at a easy to reach place, like Tier One. It could take, oh, I don't know, Hybrid Armor's place?

TtM:

You can't outtank them, their Hybrid Armor makes that clear.

You can't outdamage them, the various STR encouraging skills make that clear. In-fact, the skill's improvement are based:

N/A-STR-N/A
STR-DEX-TCH
N/A-STR-SPP
TCH-STR-N/A

4 Skills that improve with STR? You might argue with STR BHs, but even they do not have that many STR dependant skills.

N/A-STR-TCH
SPP-N/A-TCH
DEX-SPP-DEX
N/A-STR-N/A

You can't heal-loop them. They can hide behind Hybrid and Heal through Reroute.

The only way to beat them is to block them, but is totally dependant on luck, which is unreliable.

@Bluekatz below

What if we increase the Base Defenses by a factor, say, 5? That means 52 Tech would now give 24-28 Tech.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/15/2011 2:52:17)

@igfod13 Yeah that was the old version. I actually calculated again. And you know what? Ironically STR is possibly the most UP stat in game. The only reason STR Abuse is that good is because of Weapon damage (or at least base on my number).

After a while calculating I believe the average damage per turn should be 10 according the the balanced standard. The reason why this number is messed up is because of the damage from weapons does not match the Def/Res Armor give which lead to the problem of having high HP at higher level.

So in fact to balance STR build, we must nerf Primal weapon damage and buff STR stat. I think that's the safest solution.

Also I don't like how STR work now. I disagree that STR should be standard for everything like you said. It makes ED too much of "Hit hit hit" like BH, but I rather have some complex strategy against different builds.
The main reason why STR is so good that it cover both Primal and Gun so it can seek Elements. While it sound ok, it does nothing but encourage people to abuse STR. Don't get me wrong. but I rather be like old style where you can freely abuse different type of attack.
Also I want STR to be more specific instead of "work in every case" because this will allow us to use STR in 2vs2 rather focus only in 1vs1

I will post my Stat Suggestion after reading your work



igfod13 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/15/2011 21:18:44)

Hmm, I think that you're right. Prim/gun seeking might be a problem with str.
Before, I was thinking of having the robot switched to support and deflections switched to tech.
This way, str and sup are offensive skills, while tech and dex are defensive.

However, I'm also starting to understand why some have suggested moving deflections to str, and gun to dex. This makes all the skills offensive AND defensive, with str and supp leaning toward offense, and dex and tech leaning toward def. If this is the model pursued, tech would need to have a much larger role in the damage that robots play, which means focus might be removed. Still, I actually like the concept of focus, it rewards those who have the "right" weapons for their build, but this reward needs to be kept pretty minimally. This overall concept would be incredibly hard to balance, but I think it would be worth it.

As for lowering weapon damage, there might be a lot of repercussions. First of all, it requires all the stats to get buffed, which might lead to more stat abuse. Also, it would increase the var-nonvar gap. However, I must agree that I also feel that weapon damage is too high, but I think more math needs to be done before we can safely come to a conclusion.



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/16/2011 1:30:15)

Here is an additional point.

Nerf Massacre. Massacre's system is very abused when reached over Level 5. With exceedingly high boosts from Massacre, there should be a buff because if you do the math,

A Support BH, Level 5 Massacre

4-5+34+34= 72-73

A Strength BH, Level 5 Massacre
24-29+34+34 92-97

Should be something like this:

Level 1: 25%
Level 2: 34%
Level 3: 43%
Level 4: 52%
Level 5: 61%
Level 6: 70%
Level 7: 78%
Level 8: 86%
Level 9: 93%
Level 10: 100%
They do so much damage that when Maxed, It reaches over 80 even if you are a Support Build at Level 34! That is not cool. Surgical Strike/Super Charge Damage System should be similar to Massacre. It isn't balanced to have 1 special attacks being far more powerful than one. Even if you abuse Tech at Maximum level, You will reach the 100s, but the Bounty Hunters deal significantly more damage for lower stats! Not cool. It needs to Change.

My suggestion helps bring down Massacre builds to match the level of Super Charge and Surgical Strike, but they deal a little more damage due to lack of special effect.



Algorithm -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/16/2011 1:35:51)

Can't wait till Assimilate gets buffed lulz.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 1:32:47)

I wonder if the Balance gap is somehow linked to the Assault Bot.

With it, people can get to rebuff a stat at no to little cost, making Debuffs worthless. Yet debuffs are necessary for the survival of most Non-Varium Builds.

For instance, a Tactical Merc with default 24-29 Defense and Maxxed Hybrid. With a SmokeScreen, their Defense could be lowered to around 15-18 +13, the point where significant Damage can be done. If they just used Assault Bot, it would render the Smoke worthless and a waste of EP points.

So, I suggest using the Assault Special only reducing the Debuff on the first and last turn, letting the 2nd turn of the Debuff remain at what it would be without the 80% Reduction.

It should also be unstackable.

The cooldown cost for using the Assault Special could be reduced by 1 turn, due to the nerf. The Robot Strike cooldown stays the same.



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 2:16:35)

No. It should be like this. The player receives 25% of the EP back if the opponent uses the robot special.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 2:22:18)

How would getting back 2-8 EP help balance?



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 4:23:23)

Bot skill should scale after TEC and actually cost MP.
I mean look at Gamma Bot, it can switch Element, which can deal like 5-10 extra damage if well aimed, especially on classes with debuff. I don't see any problem if it cost like 5 MP.
And Look at Gamma Bot, it's second skill even scale after TEC. Why can't Assault 2nd skill do that?

1 Focus: 3 MP reduce 15%
2 Focus 5 MP reduce 30%
3 Focus 7 MP reduce 45%
4 Focus 9 MP reduce 60%
5 Focus 11 MP reduce 75%

Each 1% is increased by 4 TEC



DartzXD -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 4:36:08)

Robots are already nerfed. Both gets in cooldown at once =.= .
And you are talking about using MP for them? Hell no :o



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 4:39:51)

@DartXD

The Bots were nerfed, true, but BlueKatz's idea would help balance by not allowing Stat Abusers have a good rebuff. :D

However, I believe just utilizing the Focus-Scaling Rebuff would be better than making it cost EP and scale on Focus.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 4:44:41)

Without MP it would be OP. The Debuff one I scale after Technical, a pretty darn cheap skill. And Gamma Bot MP require I scale after Bludgeon without extra damage. I refuse to see Gamma Bot do both Physical and Energy without any cost



DartzXD -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 4:44:53)

After the Field Medic Nerf, almost everyone changed from supportive build and who are Varium users they made Focus Build, now tell me is there any build that will be perfect? Each build we migrate to, gets nerfed. The skills like support buff should be given back.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 4:48:35)

Focus are obviously OP for so long. I'm surprise to see it last for so long untouched. Trust me when staff release more Bot, this will be changed sooner or later, possibly coming from people who use Bot. And that Bot nerf do nothing but make you pay like 5 more Stat on MP instead of spamming on TEC for damage and just solve half of STR TLM problem, which I highly doubt major people don't want



DartzXD -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 9:03:51)

The only class need a nerf is Bounty HUnter and Strength Builds. They're just OPed.
Tactical Mercenary = Maul-> Almost Always Stun-> Double strike -> We heal -> They strike -> We boost ->They RAGE double strike or Gun-> GAME OVER.

NERF THEM!



Jekyll -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 9:11:35)

^You forgot smokescreen on first strike :D HOW MUCH MORE FUN CAN IT GET!



State Alchemist -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 11:26:06)

Blood mage needs assimilate back!

What you can replace for it is simple ....intimidate!
Put reflex boost where intimidate is (it is 3rd down on the tree normally anyways)
place assimilate where reflex boost is now (or better yet, place assimilate in SC space, and move SC to where reflex boost is)

It is insane that bloodmage has NO way of taking energy from an opponet whereas every other class can!



DartzXD -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 12:55:13)

Blood Mage should be given a new skill similar Atom Smasher. Assimilation cannot take much energy. Then it would be a balance.
And also, Massacre should be nerfed in Hunters, It takes too much more damage than Surgical Strike and Super Charge. Thats a discrimination among classes. However I am right or wrong, high support never gets you the first turn. It just depends on luck I th



comicalbike -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 13:45:35)

if you keep on nerfing everything game will be awful and the game is getting worse with all the nerfs i always thought the rules were if you cant beat them join them,



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 14:03:25)

^SO joining the TLM population will some how make the game better????

LOL good joke, lets all "join them" and then rename this game TLM vs TLM, or discriminate those who cannot change and recall the game, Pay and win or dont and lose evry single battle.


However I do see were your getting at Nerf arnt always the answer,
I think a Change to TLM is wat is needed not a "nerf" I define a nerf as a disadvanatge with nothing in return, and I call a "change" when you get other advantages in return.

SO by this sence Switching hybrid for defence matrix will only "change the class" and will give the advtanages such as more skill points and better burst defence.
not to mention actuly making them "tactical".





Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 15:20:58)

Very nice suggestion! :

To compensate removing focus, we can incorporate a higher levelling technology scale!



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 15:48:19)

quote:

SO by this sence Switching hybrid for defence matrix will only "change the class" and will give the advtanages such as more skill points and better burst defence.
not to mention actuly making them "tactical".


removing hybrid will kill the class(no problem for me cause if that happen bh is waiting me :D ) and tactical merc is the most tactical class in game thats why they beat you, first of all it has unlimited skill combinations, atom - maul - double - heal - technician - smoke - change hybrid - frenzy , you can use all of these in any combo with the help of reroute , none of the classes has these much options in one build.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (11/17/2011 15:55:21)

^ Sounds like a strength class :S



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