RE: Balance Discussion (Full Version)

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RageSoul -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 10:09:26)

@Remorse
Um , why do you want them to be more OPed ? DM is better than HA in terms of Defense , so that's why i said it OPed .




Remorse -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 10:47:09)

^ Yes it better, but they arnt more oped.

They have to waist turns casting it aswell as the fact it only lasts 3 turns.

What it will do is get rid of all the cheap anoying TLM build which kill people effortlessly. But at the same time making some new strategic builds.

But how would they be oped??

Think of how the builds would work before you say they will be oped.

Yes you could argue a support build blah blah.
But answer this, are support mages that oped? They would be very similar.



Here i what i think it will do.
Firstly slow the STR builds as they wont get the extra bonus hyrbid gives them giving them an edge over most other STR builds.
Their tank builds wont be insain because they will have to even out dex and tech more for better defence and lets face it, thier Oped Tank build would be nothing without hyrbid.

BUT new build will arise ones which can be countered. Ones which give people equal chance.




I am Primal -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 10:50:57)

exactly def martix makes them more op. reroute is the problem if you nerf tlms do it correctly.




Renn100 -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 11:10:07)

Ye nerf Us but give another energy drain skill not reroute example what give 15-20%[At maxed lvl]Thats a big minus (-10% thats isnt big now really?,what u want to have only hybrid thats uselless ,then dont call us Tactical mercs)Pls do not remove reroute and then we become a stupid merc-_-.Seriously i payed 50k cred for this:(?Or atleast make another energy drain skill for TLM




I am Primal -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 11:52:01)

well if u want this solved reroute has to go. plus 50k credits doesn't take too long to make i made like 25k per day back when i was mega active. once i changed class 6 times in a week 3 with varium and 3 with credits.




Minus123 -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 12:06:50)

quote:

Pls do not remove reroute and then we become a stupid merc-_-.Seriously i payed 50k cred for this


TLM's would still have smoke, poison, frenzy, technician. Doesn't sound like a merc to me.




endtime -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 12:11:43)

lol really?!?!? You guys think that Hybrid Armor, possibly the best passive in the game, is weaker than defense matrix? Hybrid armor lasts the entire battle and adds essentially 39 dexterity (without the blocks). Defense Matrix lasts only three turns and costs 10+ energy & a turn to cast. Considering how crucial every turn is, taking a turn to cast DM is a huge disadvantage. Also, when DM is down, the opponent will capitalize by using their strongest physical attack. For example, if a strength bounty sees you have DM, they won't smoke screen you until you put up the DM. Then they will smoke screen you. As soon as that DM is down, you will die from massacre, which is abetted by smoke screen.

Clearly DM isn't stronger than Hybrid, if it were, then TM would be insanely OP. Removing Hybrid and replacing it with defense matrix would solve TLM's OP nature. If that happened, strength TLMs can't solely focus on str because their defense is lower and Tank TLMs have to acquire decent support to effectively use DM.




I am Primal -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 12:13:13)

endtime your forgetting the return of crazy support killing 2 vs 2 even more think about it that way.




Wootz -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 20:47:35)

I don't know what is wrong with you guys. Endtime is right. Defense Matrix, Reflex Boost, Energy shield whatever CANNOT cut it. It simply cannot bypass what Hybrid Armor has to offer.
To me, a crazy overpowered skill abuse build user means a lot to me.
Heres a short little story.

One day, I stumbled upon an Tactical Mercenary while using my TotalyProWitDisBuild Max Massacre build.
I Malfuncioned her. She was an tank. She putten Technician. In the next turn she used Assault Bot' special.
On the third turn she transfered Hybrid Armor to Resistance. And then it came. In total, her Resistance was
Over 40+.
The funny thing about that was. That I managed to do more then 60 damage to her without scoring an critical
and defeating her hands down.

I hope you liked my little story.
kthxbai

~Wootz




drinde -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 21:03:12)

Fine, if Defense Matrix is "OP", give them Reflex Boost and BloodShield for Technician.




Wootz -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 21:11:52)

What I have in mind is an breakable passive. Which would not be Hybrid Armor, but a new skill which won't effect the Mercenary class as they, would, then became cripled.

Lets say, that it has an 11% chance when striked to get broken by 1/3, 2/3 o 3/3; with 33,3% for every possible break.




drinde -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 21:43:51)

Actually, I don't see why they can't just remove the Tactical Merc class, and refund everyone 50,000 Credits to change as they please.




Wootz -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 21:45:17)

Yeah sure. I don't mind.
And then bringing it back when it is complete.




supermasivo -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 21:49:28)

As i said before... we all know hybrid armor makes tac mercs OP, so to make things ballanced give us all hybrid armor or just remove that insane and unfair skill of this game.
Im a tac merc user and i dont like easy battles, thats why i changed to a tech mage, to get more "adrenalin"... couse its so so so boring playing tlms... so easy battles allways ¬¬




Wootz -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 21:52:09)

Its that they have an passive defense, energy gaining skill and an health gaining skill.




RageSoul -> RE: Balance Discussion (12/31/2011 21:53:49)

quote:

Yes it better, but they arnt more oped.

They have to waist turns casting it aswell as the fact it only lasts 3 turns.

What it will do is get rid of all the cheap anoying TLM build which kill people effortlessly. But at the same time making some new strategic builds.

But how would they be oped??

Well , when you use Smoke , they will most likely use it . Plus , it improves with SUPP so that means it can't be weakened . Also , TLMs with HA are actually easier to kill compared to TMs with DM , and did you noticed that they can stack it with high DEX as well ?

quote:

Think of how the builds would work before you say they will be oped.

Yes you could argue a support build blah blah.
But answer this, are support mages that oped? They would be very similar.



Here i what i think it will do.
Firstly slow the STR builds as they wont get the extra bonus hyrbid gives them giving them an edge over most other STR builds.
Their tank builds wont be insain because they will have to even out dex and tech more for better defence and lets face it, thier Oped Tank build would be nothing without hyrbid.

BUT new build will arise ones which can be countered. Ones which give people equal chance.

Right , and while they have a chance to cripple you with Atom Smasher ( along with high DEX + Assault Bot of course or if they go first) plus the EP regain from Reroute , most likely they're free from Smoke because you no longer have enough EP to use it . And , BTW , when did SUPP mages became OPed ? I didn't said they were , and just because TLMs have Reroute + Hybrid doesn't mean it can always beat TM's Reroute + DA if faced against STR BH , BM ( w/ PHYS Staff ) and other builds from diff . classes . Plus , DM fuels Rage faster than HA . Also , it requires more strategy to outsmart TMs , because if you're not careful , the advantage goes to them . But TLM's +13 DEF ? That's not strong . In fact , can +13 make a HUGE difference ? I mean it can't be improved , plus they don't have RB to counter it so they rely on Assault Bot for it . And like i said , they can stack it with high DEX .

Oh take note that if you face a pro TM and a pro TLM , who do you think would win ? Of course it's TLM because of Technician + High DEX . And besides , if one TLM has skill , i don't think he/she would Smoke that TM so quickly .

quote:

I don't know what is wrong with you guys. Endtime is right. Defense Matrix, Reflex Boost, Energy shield whatever CANNOT cut it. It simply cannot bypass what Hybrid Armor has to offer.
To me, a crazy overpowered skill abuse build user means a lot to me.

I guess you haven't realized that some those skills aren't just for defensive terms , right ? Also , TM can actually beat Merc and TLM , even with HA . Why? Because if a TM has a large amounts of SUPP + high leveled Malfunction , +13 isn't enough . Oh , and did you guys noticed that will make them more vulnerable to Physical damage if they switched it to Energy ?

quote:

One day, I stumbled upon an Tactical Mercenary while using my TotalyProWitDisBuild Max Massacre build.
I Malfuncioned her. She was an tank. She putten Technician. In the next turn she used Assault Bot' special.
On the third turn she transfered Hybrid Armor to Resistance. And then it came. In total, her Resistance was
Over 40+.
The funny thing about that was. That I managed to do more then 60 damage to her without scoring an critical
and defeating her hands down.

What level is you Mass anyway? Also , i think you're using a STR-abused build , because how the heck can you deal that amount of damage aside from Mass + Bonus Damage dealt by Primary ?




Zeoth -> RE: Balance Discussion (1/1/2012 4:21:13)

@above
I believe it's lvl 10 cuz he said maxed




Remorse -> RE: Balance Discussion (1/1/2012 4:57:26)

@Lord aegis

Obviolsy their is somthing wrong with you build if you think a mage with their DM is harder to take down copared to a merc with hyrbid.


I sorta see what your saying. Maybe if you were a STR build with mostly phiscal attacks TLMs could be harder to take down with Defence matrix.
But if you dont have back up plans for your oppnent using a sheild over you debuff then clearly you build has loop holes.


I dont kow about you, But I Prefer it for mages to cast DM, Yes thats right I prefer it.
WHY? Because they waste a turn and enough MP to make it worth energy drianing them, plus you build up rage alot faster.


I actuly have a strategy to kill mages in which I use smoke not for killing them , but to make them use defence matrix leaving them open to an energy drain aswell as decent energy attacks to back me up.

THERE is no way DM will make them more Oped unless you builds are completely unstrategic.




UltimateFatalis -> RE: Balance Discussion (1/1/2012 5:23:56)

90 percent of TLMs that i faced is vulnerable to rage bulid.

TLM is not OP.Hybrid provokes the use of rage effectively.

Having a duel defense means you will be wasting a turn before you can do anything




Im back... -> RE: Balance Discussion (1/1/2012 6:22:50)

Buff static charge. I'm getting mad because of it being blocked and me not being able to heal. It's ridiculous, it's not even a passive. CH only has 1 passive and it's and EVOLVED class. Not a starter, but evolved. The evolved should be more OP than the starter, because it's really common sense. Those are just some of my thoughts.




Ranloth -> RE: Balance Discussion (1/1/2012 8:03:48)

@Im back...
Your comment just made me laugh, "The evolved should be more OP than the starter, because it's really common sense." - so basically, TLM is perfectly balanced as it's OP over Merc.. and every other single class. >.>




RageSoul -> RE: Balance Discussion (1/1/2012 8:16:37)

quote:

Obviolsy their is somthing wrong with you build if you think a mage with their DM is harder to take down copared to a merc with hyrbid.


I sorta see what your saying. Maybe if you were a STR build with mostly phiscal attacks TLMs could be harder to take down with Defence matrix.
But if you dont have back up plans for your oppnent using a sheild over you debuff then clearly you build has loop holes.


I dont kow about you, But I Prefer it for mages to cast DM, Yes thats right I prefer it.
WHY? Because they waste a turn and enough MP to make it worth energy drianing them, plus you build up rage alot faster.


I actuly have a strategy to kill mages in which I use smoke not for killing them , but to make them use defence matrix leaving them open to an energy drain aswell as decent energy attacks to back me up.

THERE is no way DM will make them more Oped unless you builds are completely unstrategic.

Right , because what you didn't noticed the part where they can cripple you with a strong Atom Smasher that can burn up to 36+ EP ( if you add points unto it that is ) , then most likely you're strategy is ruined . Also , try facing a TLM who is a STR-abused build user with skill and smarts , and what you'll notice is that they have high DEX and STR And also , let me tell you something : Why do they max HA? The answer is to get very effective , because if they didn't maxed it , most likely they'll lose against majority of the classes , while DM gives free points AND can be improved . And no , my build is fine . Sure i use P armor , but who says i don't use strategy ? And if you give them DM , most likely they won't use it at first unless they're Smoked . Also , that counters STR BH and TLM as well . Plus , there are such things as "put more points to EP and DEX " right? Add Assault Bot to the mix , and there you go , you've got a tank AND a heavy damage dealer .




Remorse -> RE: Balance Discussion (1/1/2012 8:33:09)

^
See you said it yourself,

"without hyrbid they will be less efective"

:O
Well gee that would be good because they are more effective then all other classes.

And you also said
quote:

that counters STR BH and TLM as well


Then its even better because this game lacks counters for strength builds, and hence why the dominate and are seen constantly in all battle modes.

SO basically you are supporting the fact they shouldnt have HA and why they SHOULD have DM.

Also you mentioned Atom smash, I agree that it is a problem versing TLMs with atom smash they main reason is they can afford to use atom smash because they have perminant high defence and can afford to spare a few turns for it.

Without HA they would have to be very wise about what turns they atom smash as it may not work for their favor with lower defences no backing them up.




od -> RE: Balance Discussion (1/1/2012 11:41:16)

If they remove HA on tlm, they should hive them either
a)A passive similar to shadow arts (e.g increases crit and deflect chance)
b) A passive similar to deadly aim on auxiliaries
This should also be placed on mecrenary




Archlord Raistlin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/1/2012 14:41:47)

It seems that the battles over the past couple of weeks have been more equal in level
(but not ability). I think I've only had 2 low level battles over the past 2 weeks.

I can appreciate the attempt at balancing battles but why am I (blood mage) constantly
fighting level 34 (mainly tlm's) with high str and def/res of 35-40+? From casual calculations,
about 8 out of 10 battles have at least one, and most often two, of these super tank builds.
Could it be that there are few, if any, other level 34 classes the engine can find? Somehow
I doubt that...

Once again, the impotent attempts at solving the tlm OP problems have shifted into another
area and instead of getting critted by artillary, we get hit by a maul with 100 str. Really....what
is the difference? It seems blood mage has 2 options...try to match the defenses and hit for
nothing, or go all strength kamakazi and be a sitting duck. I dont see mercs having to choose
between power and defense...they get both one way or the other...and both can be higher
than other classes...with reroute thrown in. It's laughable, but does anybody really get this???

After all of the discussions and subtle game changes over the past year, why does the best
option continue to be class changing into a mindless, striking tlm...?

Lemme guess....you're aware of the issue and you're working on it. Bleh... Fix it.




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