RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 13:32:41)

The whole idea of an passive armor is bad.
If this was some other game where its normal to deal 100+ without any buffs/debuffs just normal attacks then it would be fine. But, the problem here is that we do a small ammount of damage and the only way that we can do a ton of it is in controled enviorments.

Personally, I belive that the only class that should have an passive armor is Mercenary, but buffing it to maybe +7.
Tactical Mercenaries, they can still do massive ammount of damage, even though you used Assault Bots special or put a shield, and everyone which has an Azrael's Borg uses it, so it doesn't really matter much if you'll just cover up a few points of defense.

Cyber Hunters, removing the Plasma Armor, and replacing it with Energy Shield/Technician would balance them. There was no need at all for the class to have a passive armor. They were doing fine, but, they were thought to be UP'd because 90% of paying community was a Tactical Mercenary which, at the time, was OP'd.

Blood Mages are fine, Assimilation was good, but hey, they still are a huge damage dealers and with 110+ HP with BloodLust they cover their low defenses and no Energy gain. As they can do same or higher damage then the classes with debuffs.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 13:39:15)

^
Please do not nerf Cyber Hunters. Thanks. xD



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 13:45:46)

They were fine as they were before, just fix up Massacre as it was before. And it'll all be fine and balanced. As we "are" obviously Over-Powered. :/
Not really, but, still, since everyone complains, Devs listen to complainers and thats it.
Tactical Mercenaries are the same as Cyber Hunters only based on Physical and can crush them with a Strenght Build, so, between me and you, I still think that Tactical Mercenaries are stronger then the other classes.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 13:49:24)

quote:

The whole idea of an passive armor is bad.


Indeed! Having a 12 extra defence gives the oppertunity to abuse another skill (Str, support) which often is the thing that makes classes OP.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 13:50:45)

@AQWPlayer
Please, it's known that CHs will be nerfed for a while - got Staff confirmation myself from ages ago (when it got changed).

I could evaluate on no Passive Armors idea and classes that have them - yes I do have 2 opinions and it's for and against passive Armors.

We could replace Mineral Armor with Defense Matrix. Even for non-Support builds, at Lvl 1 it gives at least 10-15 Defence which is equivalent to at least 40-60 Dex. Good enough to replace Mineral, only advantage which Reflex gives is blocking but significantly less Def. And for CH, it'd be Technican because Energy Shield + Matrix both improve via Support and defense could be a bit too much. If TMs survive with Technican+Matrix, no reason why CHs could not. In such a case, Static would need to be changed only and SA could stay because it'd be more balanced.
Same with TLMs, their class would be able to make better builds because Matrix wouldn't need to be invested into as much and Support builds could be better - Multi, Smoke, Reroute, Matrix and Heal. Of course Smoke+Multi costs a bit at higher Lvl and making up Energy via Reroute would be tricky to Heal so it's either pick one or invest more in Energy instead and get it all (more Energy = less points into other skills).
Although I wonder about CH - if Plasma Armor was to be removed, would there be a need for Static change? Tanking would be gone as you'd have to sacrifice some stats or a lot for balanced Tank build and they'd take significantly more damage - meaning Static wouldn't be as strong as it is now due to Plasma.

Btw, if Mercs are still UP'ed with Hybrid - then removing it would make it even worse. :P



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 13:55:38)

If Plasma Armor was due to get removed, then there would not be a need to nerf Static Charge, as that would make the class; how the called it at the begining of Delta; stupid, noobish extremly underpowered, which it actually wasn't.
If it was kept in the current state, exchanging Plasma Armor with Technician would make it fair and even for everyone to have a chance to win againts Cyber Hunters.

Mercenaries, a stronger Hybrid Armor, without stat requirments, a point or two stronger without reqs would make them better, and the buff thats gonna happen to Field Commander and Intimidate would make then a lot better. :)



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 13:56:15)

Trans, I never posted anything you could criticise, that is the problem.
you shot an idea down BEFORE i even posted it, even though you only got a small clue as to what I was actually gonna post, then you go on
some rant about needing to be a coder to contribute to balance ideas. well their is only a few coders in this topic & I think most work for ED.

so I say it again, if they are not brave enough to address the fundamental problems then why bother at all? its just a profit engine with no
love shown to the players. look at the leaderboards, almost entirely dominated by players who class change to latest OP class/build combo
and is a TERRIBLE reflection not only on the game itself, but on all the staff, and a large amount of players who "abused" the situation.

I love ED, I think the staff do a lot of great things, but time and again profits have shot down balance. how many years do they need before
they actually reach some semblance of balance and how many balance topics are needed before ONE IDEA makes it into the game.

Wiseman and Ashari seem to be the only staff members that actually play this game and experience the imbalance first hand, clearly. I have
seen many of their posts on balance, but why are they not being implemented, and why are certain features implemented without any thought
beforehand? launching TLM, a more powerful version of merc after almost a year of merc domination made sense how exactly? and if they
made a mistake with TLM and now realise that, why did they repeat the mistake by giving CHs plasma armor [ugh and the change to tech/sup]



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 13:59:55)

@psibertus There always be an OPd build. Each time an item is released a new build can be made, each time someone levels up a new build can be made. It would be humanly impossible to predict and stop each OPd build from happening. If you asked before Heal Loop, no one would've brought up the possibility of mages being able to pull off that build. Few people ever see a problem build before it becomes a problem.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:06:39)

Psibertus, right..

quote:

Q: if a passive armor like Mineral or Plasma would make BM, TM or BH overpowered, then why is it ok for CHs and TLMs to have them?


Mind re-reading my post again? I mainly evaluated on that question, nothing more. It makes sense as I technically replied to your question. Your suggestion was unknown so I couldn't have shot it down. I have 2 opinions on it, one on previous page and other just above.

Also gonna evaluate on one point, again..:

quote:

I love ED, I think the staff do a lot of great things, but time and again profits have shot down balance. how many years do they need before
they actually reach some semblance of balance and how many balance topics are needed before ONE IDEA makes it into the game.


Thing is, ED Staff gets same wage every time, even if they make more profit than before, and who gains more on it is Artix. Until he wants to give them a bonus or higher wages, they will get the same money even if ED makes more than let's say last month. Remember not all Staff in ED is paid, they are mostly volunteers. Testers play a big role in ED too, but they are just volunteers who aren't paid.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:08:04)

yes but TLMs went virtually untouched for almost 6months. Support mercs ruled for months after I started playing, and months before too.
they take too long to fix the more obvious issues. I know that some builds will always counter other builds, but no build should be highly
successful against almost every other class/build combo, and you shouldn't be forced to create a counter build because the masses like
to class change and build copy. I know balance is impossible, but they could at least try right? instead of making it worse and profiting.

@Trans, Ill edit it out, np.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:13:53)

@psi As far as I know, there probably isn't even 5 people on the Balance Team. There are only two coders for the game. Whatever the balance team comes up with, Titan has to find room to code it in the game. The balance team can't just throw out an idea, have Titan code it in the game and make BM do 300+ damage Physical against Max Physical defense because they didn't test the changes enough to be satisfied with what it is. They often cut testing short so they can get stuff out on time so players don't complain about it being delayed. It's always a lose lose situation. They either test it thoroughly and get no problems but delayed release or they get it out on time but it has problems. Either way the forum will rant about it. Unless it's perfect and on time then the players won't like it.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:14:02)

Should we try to focus on how to improve the current balance, mathematically?



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:16:40)

@wootz Finally a wonderful idea in a balance thread that can't be shot down. What if we tried using math and comparing the skill and it's effectiveness against other classes using mathematical figures instead of making up stories about how a TLM did 70+ damage against you?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:18:59)

About passive Armors again, if there's a way to weaken the class as much (TLM and CH) in order to keep the Armors then it'd be good if Staff would tell us.
Otherwise losing Armors but Hybrid for Mercs would be the best.

Best solution is to give us both scenarios from the staff and create a poll where we could vote on which option we would prefer. And it could be done soon before Devs would start working on it! We'd get our own say in it, they could give us the reasons for both scenarios and how it'd improve. In that way, it'd satisfy us players that we get a say on it and Devs would have easier time figuring out what we want (in case change would be bad/OP'ed/UP'ed/etc).



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:22:48)

Indeed we should, hey! I didn't round up the numbers! xP
----------
Let's start with the current class thats on the top.
Cyber Hunters.

Reasons of power:
  • Plasma Armor
  • Static Charge

    Ideas to fix it:
  • Plasma Armor
    -Cut it down to +10 Resistance, 1 point of Resistance for 1 level of the skill
    -Remove the skill and replace it with Technician
    -Change its tier making it harder to reach and in need to spend more skill points to progress it
  • Static Charge
    -Allow it to have a set % to connect, example 70-85%
    -Diminish its Damage to Energy %
    -Increase its requirment
    -Replace the skill with Reroute(I can't belive that I am saying this...gonna demand a refund it that happens :P)
    -------------------------

    Whatcha think?



    • PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:30:37)

    In the new balance topic I will post my ideas on the armors [with the premise that they will never be removed]. I promise it will be indepth
    and cover all the relevant changes to each class. but for now here is another idea.

    give all classes a passive armor or hybrid, but permanently instead of as a skill to invest points in. start with 0 at level 1. then each 5 levels
    increase by +2 def or res for Plasma and Mineral armor and +1 def AND res for hybrid. at level 30 you would have either +12 def/res or +6
    res & def. when the level cap goes up, the level 35s would gain +2 or +1 +1 [you get the drift]

    this idea would not only address the gap between CH+TLM and the other classes, but it would also give everyone more skill points to be
    creative and equal stat points. when I post my indepth idea, I will be more specific on which classes should get which armors, what skills
    should be changed out and so on. [AND yes it will include Math, stat analysis and so on]

    EDIT: I will always support removing passive armors :)

    here are some brilliant comments from the various wikis on balance

    quote:

    In game design, balance is the concept and the practice of tuning the relationships between a game's different systems, usually with the goal of preventing any from being ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers. A system in or entering an unbalanced state represents wasted development resources at the very least, and at worst can undermine the game's entire ruleset by making important roles or tasks impossible to perform.

    quote:

    In constructed worlds, such as in video gaming, where nearly all-powerful corporate interests strive to maintain a balance of power among players, players tend to be extremely vocal about what they see as unbalanced mechanics, providing the unbalance negatively affects them. And though the strong and unbalanced, or "overpowered" players commonly are vigorous in denial of any lack of balance, the comparative media equality among all player brings change quickly, to further a sense of balance.


    this one is my favourite though

    quote:

    A game would be badly imbalanced if a novice could beat an expert simply because the novice uses an inherently superior character.



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 14:49:39)

    quote:

    A game would be badly imbalanced if a novice could beat an expert simply because the novice uses an inherently superior character.


    Thats the case in EpicDuel definetly.

    I like your idea, would be incredibly nice :)
    Can't wait to see it indepth.
    Probably going to repost my thing up there in the next thread, this is soon to be locked. :P



    PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 15:01:54)

    gonna take me a few days I think, so much ground to cover [I will probably post them under a new name]

    also I liked your idea of replacing technician for Plasma armor. it would only boost Plasma Grenade, an underused skill that basically sucks.
    mages aren't OP with technician and they have 2 offensive skills that scale with tech.



    TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 18:02:26)

    Reduce critical % def/res ignore to 20%

    Reduce deflection % atk ignore to 20%

    Reduce minimum blocking chance to 0%

    Most of the players use maximum 125 hp, a crit with a good attack = 40 dmg, so 1/3 of the hp is gone with just 1 attack very stupid. 50% def/res ignore is just ridiculous for this game. The major balance problem is this luck factor[:@] FIX IT PLS!!!



    ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 18:06:29)

    @turkish Crits are so high because tanks are so powerful and easy to make. Would you like to fight a CH or TLM with nothing but dex/tech and you having to rely on 3 damage and rages? Deflects are fine as they are. Minimum chance is to help maintain the gap between non varium and varium and to give a chance to lower level players. Also, read the first post as it says specifically not to bring up luck factors into the balance thread.



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 18:08:00)

    I did post few suggestions about blocking, going first, bots, and CHs here but it seemed like no one actually looked at it but Remorse. I could've guessed the length of the post could've been the problem but I went into detail with my numbers so.



    TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 18:30:02)

    @The ND Mallet Guy

    So you are saying the only way to stop a Tank build hope for a lucky crit??? and what if tank build do crit???

    Minimum chance is not only help non variums, a varium that gives all stats to str (BM) with 60 dex can block my +120 dex build and it hit all attacks with 60 dex :S




    ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 18:34:14)

    @Turk Either non variums get an advantage and you suffer by getting unlucky once in awhile or you spread the gap farther apart just so you don't lose a battle once in awhile because of a block. I have fought tanks that hardly took a dent from the old 50% ignore of rage. Crits will always give +10 damage regardless of how much defense the other guy has.



    Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 21:41:17)

    I just love how players that do not play a Blood Mage say they are just fine so that no improvements will be made to that class. That the blood mage deals such huge damage when that is only the case if you have defense or resistance below 20. 23%health return is a joke because for one to get any benefit the damage has to be 60+, even at 60 it is only 14 so if they get 20 and above damage that is a health loss not a health regain. With a tact merc with low dex 3 out of 4 strikes on him was blocked because he had the extra points with mineral armor. With high strength and low dex there is a 99% chance the Blood mage will be blocked by the hunter and merc class so using berzerker one of the most blocked moves in the game is taking a huge chance except on another Blood Mage.

    I had resistance at 40-48 +1 and in a 2vs2 on a cyber hunter with plasma armor resistance at 21-26 +1 and max Plasma Rain I only got 37 damage so it constantly appears that the Blood Mage is getting the low end of the damage scale and the rest are getting the upper end, making that class skills look like a joke.

    So now I see people are trying to get classes to have their own unique skills so that class can be adjusted with affecting any other class, well let's see who was trying to get that done, that is corrected it was me but I was bashed for it because of the lack of understanding in the database programming.

    With constant deflections, blocks, lack of energy stealing, energy regain capabilities, and any Debuff skill that makes a difference the Blood Mage class can't outlast a Cyber Hunter or Tact Mec in battle making that class less than fine. Why turn a Living battery into a dead battery? Aggression can on get you as far as you have energy and once your energy is out, that is it.



    AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/19/2012 22:03:09)

    @Hun Kingq
    I notice many exaggerations in your posts. For example, this
    quote:

    With high strength and low dex there is a 99% chance the Blood mage will be blocked by the hunter and merc class so using berzerker one of the most blocked moves in the game is taking a huge chance except on another Blood Mage.

    and bloodlust if supposed to give you only a bit of health every attack turn (which may possibly save you), NOT to completely cancel out your enemy's damage, so this statement is invalid
    quote:

    23%health return is a joke because for one to get any benefit the damage has to be 60+, even at 60 it is only 14 so if they get 20 and above damage that is a health loss not a health regain.

    Now for this...
    quote:

    That the blood mage deals such huge damage when that is only the case if you have defense or resistance below 20

    Blood mages can easily hit 40+ with their max fireball on my 26-32 defense, not to mention their insane berzerker, which is almost NEVER blocked by me (despite having 26-32 base def and them having about 4-5 lower).
    I have not tried the Blood Mage class, but you can't blame me for that. Reason is, my main plans to not change class until at least the official release of this game, and the char I plan to make a BM is uber poor and with very very VERY bad equipment (eloy 2006, check it out yourself).
    quote:

    Aggression can on get you as far as you have energy and once your energy is out, that is it.

    I wonder how much damage a BM's gun can do. OW! 40 damage. That hurt :/



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