RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 8:49:43)

You can get Assault Bot for free as well. Of course you're for widening Varium and non-Varium gap, which most of the players want to close.
You're getting advantage using Varium, NOT free wins.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 16:26:37)

As I've been playing as Merc and BloodMage for abit now (Lvl 1-10 merc, lvl 34 BM) I've come to the conclusion that making berserker as a unblockable move could solve the problems and balance them pretty well with the other classes.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 16:42:28)

Making Berzerker unblockable would be similar to placing it in 4th tier where special moves are unblockable which could be trickier in 3rd tier as it is now.
It's a good idea but making it unblockable would probably require bringing its damage down (it does 47% at Lvl 1 while Massacre does 50% at L1, costing a bit more Energy and being in 4th tier) and making rage not work with Berzerker as it'd be severely abused by Str builds - unblockable + even near 100% more damage + rage = depending on stats, even 1 hit KO at times.



XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 16:43:21)

^^
...
How would that help? Bloodmage would then stand out as a god...really unless the opponent is a tank, a max berserker with decent strength is more or less an instakill, especially if the opponent was debuffed, for it to be unblockable? That, good sir, is overkill



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 16:49:12)

I've heard BH is underpowered now... why not just remove the passive requirements, give the 10% deflect back to SA, or make massacre the way it was before it was nerfed.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 16:52:08)

Making Massacre how it was before would make CHs even more strong than they are now. Buffing one class also affects the other, and vice versa.
You heard? They are doing fine, perhaps Massacre could use a small buff but as I said - CHs will gain on it, same with SA; CHs will abuse that even more than before. No one knows how CH will look when changed, if same skills will be there or some will be replaced by different ones so this is my only point.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 16:57:23)

quote:

especially if the opponent was debuffed
BloodMages, nor Mercs, have any skill as that, they have intimidate which is... meh. But I could agree making berkserk require more energy and be abit weaker.

Or we could make berserk unblockable and have its dmg/energy cost as it is, for Mercs. And for BloodMages we could change SuperCharge to a new skill similar with Berserker and Massacre. And also change the berserker skill then, obviously.



XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 17:21:01)

Yes...but in 2v2 you tend to come across a teammate you can work with... and then with a powerful energy staff... BAM malf BAM Max Berserk with 17-21 +34 and instakill



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 17:23:59)

Good point Trans, but couldn't they change exchange SA with another skill like it for CH, and just buff the BH counter part.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 17:31:30)

I suggested quite a while ago:
  • Static working like BloodLust but for Energy.
  • SA swapped with Assimilation for better Energy regeneration + strategical purpose.
  • CheapShot changed a little (Double Strike costs more yet does a bit less imo).

    If this happened, Massacre could be buffed as CHs couldn't use Massacre loop anymore and BH could get better Massacre; improved.

    @Kira
    If you read my posts above, first reply to playarn, it will make sense. ^^ If Berzerk cannot rage, you deal normal damage just like other ultimate moves of every class do. But Berzerker would have no effect and lower damage boost than now because it'd be unblockable. Energy raise could be done as well but not too big, current would be fine as long as above was to be countered in.



    • Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 17:40:52)

    Unfortunatly for me. If Static Charge worked like BloodLust then it can become Reroute as its basicly the same thing.

    The ammount of Massacre I looped was 3 times againts Armor Hazzard with Fay Beee :) (I haz an witness!)
    I wouldn't argue with Shadow Arts being replaced with Assimilation, its not like I use Shadow Arts.
    Cheap Shot changed...that depends, if changed in power wouldn't that be unfair towards Bounty Hunters, in Energy cost, Supported. :P



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 17:48:30)

    Assimilation would prove much more strategical against Mercs, BHs and BMs - personal experience from TM build. :P
    Yeah Reroute or Energy BL could work, I'd be for Energy BL as BHs have BL so CHs could have the same but Energy. xD And Plasma + SA are too much currently so swapping with Assimilation would lower it and give chance to have other builds; not just Dex or Str.
    And yes, CheapShot most likely Energy wise to match Double Strike which does less and costs more Energy OR vice versa - lower DS cost and CS is fine. :P



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 17:52:31)

    Anyway, if I lose the 2-turn Static Charge, I'm demanding 900 Varium back to my pocket. :P
    Double Strike is still quite powerfull along with Tactical Mercenaries, they can pack quite a punch, even with a Defense Matrix on!



    XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 17:53:34)

    Fireball, plasma cannon, plasma rain, supercharge, and berserker all unblockable? Isn't that too many massively powerful, yet high energy, unblockables for one class? Blood mages would rampage as CHs and TLMs are now :<
    All they would need is high physical armor, a good bit of tech and strength, no support necessary, average HP and a pool of EP and they would be unstoppable, wouldn't they?
    I really don't know what could be done about BMs, but I'm not sure if that would be the solution. Yet I agree they do need some sort of boost...



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:01:54)

    5 Skills, 33 Stat Points, requirements:
    VERY high EP pool - other stats lagging behind, small improvement to the skills, even worse defense, not being able to deal maximum damage + take a lot more.

    Fireball requires Dexterity (15 + 2 per Lvl) & improves with Str, Cannon requires Dexterity (16 + 2 per Lvl) & improves with Tech, Plasma Rain has no requirement (like other multi's) & improves with Tech, Berzerker requires Dex (as seen on Wiki) and improves with Str, and Supercharge requires Tech (24 + 2 per Lvl).
    This goes down to Dex and Tech requirement for these skills + most improve with Tech (Fireball with Str). So we're going for Tech+Str build:
    Gun is weaker than it could with DA and different build, you cannot train all 5 at once + BloodLust which is a must for BHs and BMs too! You'd have to bring all the skills down to about 5-6 points, which is quite weak considering your other stats will lag behind, defense will be poor and damage won't make it possible to survive/win.



    XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:11:17)

    Hm...you have a very legitimate point there...but all they need is two of those skills, and anyone who isn't a tank is more than likely up a creek, I say this, cuz having two unblockable skills, and both of them would tear a hole right through anyone with average defenses and hp. I rather imagine it stay as is. And if it was unblockable, they could get the elements to match, it would be very similar to having two fireballs that they could use consecutively



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:16:52)

    If we go for Fireball + Berzerker + BL + DA (for additional Gun dmg), it'd be similar to what it is now. Berzerk wouldn't be able to rage (it's unblockable, that's why Mass/SS/SC cannot rage) and have lower bonus to damage than now to further compensate for being unblockable. Eventually, 2-3 more Energy which isn't a lot but always something.
    So at near-maxed/maxed Fireball and mid/high Berzerker, we'd look at costs of about 70 Energy to use both skills. You get HP back via BL and a bit more damage thanks to DA.
    Assimilation and EMP could destroy simply that combo if BM trains just 2-3 Energy above it (Assimilation at L1 can destroy it) and EMP at any Lvl can just destroy one of them skills leaving them with Strike and Gun most likely and no means to heal but BL while you can Malf/Smoke/Heal, etc.

    It'd be a buff for BMs and Mercs which do need it as well. We're somewhat killing two birds with one stone. :P



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:17:27)

    Blood Mage isn't that OP'd, nor would be with unblockables.
    The Current Fireball-Zerk build requires them to use massive Strenght (Deadly Nirvana, for example, her primary is 26-32), along that they live a massive hole in their defenses which usually makes their opponent over-damage them.
    So that wouldn't make them over-powered.



    XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:30:22)

    I shouldn't profess to understand this game that much, but I'm thinking that this would be like a neon sign at strength, berserker, and fireball that reads abuse. With those, like I said, against pretty much anything aside an ubertank, it would own, I wouldn't imagine you'd need too much dex, maybe 30 to 40 base just for requirements, get a high physical armor, get just enough tech to survive through the first round, no need for support, getting 100+ strength isn't hard, all you would need is beta weps, one of the newer armors and azrael's curse, full enhancements to strength, maybe a sprinkle or two in tech, just to be safe, and pour the rest into energy. Max out berserk and fireball, get high bloodlust and do as you will with the rest. Wouldn't that be rather....devastating to anyone who doesn't pool into dex?



    Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:36:54)

    quote:

    It'd be a buff for BMs and Mercs which do need it as well. We're somewhat killing two birds with one stone. :P


    Yes exactly. Thats why I suggested berserker.
    Otherwise if we are talking class-by-class I'd like to see Plasma cannon improve with dex instead of tech. Would be easier to create a good build, atleast for me. High dex (more blocks), a strong(er) Plasma Cannon and Overload. Could be a decent combo. Or Reflex boost + Plasma Cannon.



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:38:07)

    Deadly Nirvana already got that Kira, she lost, 'nuff said.
    It wouldn't make a big, nor a minor difference, only not being blockable and not stacking with rage, which is actually a nerf to it.



    ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:39:15)

    @wootz If you believe that a BM must abuse strength that much to get a good use for Zerker then you are mistaken. I have like 22-27 or so for damage and my Max Fireball and lvl 1 zerk will take away over half your health. I also manage to get 2 shots with my gun as well, one which is a rage. People always like to make the mistake that skills are a waste if not leveled past a certain point. I don't need to hit 60+ with a Zerk, I have a gun and Fireball that does that for me plus more most of the time. Bloodlust more than makes up for my low defenses(22-27 as well I believe, resistance has +7 from Founder Armor).

    Edit: I used my regular build and I can win against both Nightwraith and BigTuna assuming little to no luck for both fights against them. Like I said against heal loop mages during their reign of power, "If you can use your PvP build to win reliably against Boss NPCs then something is wrong with the balance."



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:43:46)

    Kira mentioned Max Berserker, I went by that example.
    ----
    For me, level 3 Berserker's top. No need to spend a lot of points into it. And a Strenght build isn't only effective build, people just don't bother to exit their win builds until they are forced to.

    I have a level 24 Blood Mage, and my build is somewhat near yours, Maxed Deadly Aim, Maxed(or level 9) BloodLust and a level 2 Berserker.
    And my strategy is: Gun-Berserker-FireBall-Rage gun. BloodLust gets my HP back from the massive ammount of damage through the gun, and I make up for my low defenses.

    Edit about the edit: Indeed it is. I can defeat Nightwraith with a Venom Strike build requiring no debuff. So, totaly Over-powered. :P



    Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:45:26)

    quote:

    I used my regular build and I can win against both Nightwraith and BigTuna assuming little to no luck for both fights against them. Like I said against heal loop mages during their reign of power, "If you can use your PvP build to win reliably against Boss NPCs then something is wrong with the balance."


    So what you are saying is that BM is OP??

    I mainly want a unblockable berserk for Merc and BM due their lack of ability to debuff someone. TLM and BH, as are the "best" classes to abuse STR with, they both have smoke. With it they lower their enemies dexterity, so basically TLM and BH str abusers dont need to get that high dexterity to hit someone. As for BM and Merc though, you'd have to get a decent amount of dexterity aswell. Having lower than 70 dexterity makes my berserk blocked almost every time.



    XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 18:53:53)

    I'm just saying, against your average cap level player, a BM strength abuse with those skills? Especially if they go first.
    Game. Set. Match. The opponent is doomed from the get go...
    The only hope of survival at this point against a build like that, would be to have high dex and pray for a block...
    Granted, the other stats were mediocre at best, I could muster up 100 strength, 52 dex, 42 tech, 25 support, 70 ep and 68 hp.
    This is at level 30, nonvarium aside from lvl 25 armor, and no enhancements.
    Now add 16 base stats from leveling to the cap, 5-20 more stats from varium items, and about 32-40 stats from fully enhancing 8-10 slots apiece, and you very well may have a virtually unbeatable build
    If berserk was unblockable, say goodbye to the other classes, everyone's gonna jump on the BM wagon.



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