RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/16/2012 20:58:41)

@Emptiness EXACTLY! I been in the same EXACT scenario except my partner left 10 seconds after the match began. It is ridicolous I can't believe it is not fixed yet. It is purely ridicolous. I have more loses in 2vs2 right now then wins only about 15 more loses because of noobs. And unfair battles.



DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 17:33:37)

TMs needs another skill that doesn't require an specific weapon, and my idea is to make assimilation a none weapon skill requirement, I think it would be fair.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 19:02:05)

So, I have been trying to play as a Mercenary to remain true to my original class. It's not pretty :(

I have no problems with the way stats work, but the only difference between the classes is the skill tree. The skills are all over the place. Just one example is Blood Shield, it is tier 2 for Tactical Mercs and Tier 4 for Mercenaries.

One thing that would help to balance the game would be to create a standard for the skill tree.

So, I came up with this:

Skill tree

Tier 1: Medic | Attack | Debuff
Tier 2: Armor | Regen | Attack
Tier 3: Multi | Buff | Special
Tier 4: Ultimate | Stun | Energy Drain


Original Classes

New Classes

I got rid of Static Charge (overpowered) and assimilate (underpowered). They could be used for new robots.

Other than changing some of the skill tier placements, so that they align better, the changes are:

Mage: replace assimilate for EMP
Blood Mage: replace bezerker with atom smash
Cyber Hunter: replace shadow arts with frenzy and replace static charge with reroute
Mercenary: replace blood shield with blood lust

Now all classes have a regen skill and an energy drain skill

Skill modifications:

Lower % return on frenzy and add 1 turn warmup
Increase Blood Lust % return to match Reroute
Reduce energy drain skills by up to 50%
Remove critical chance from bunker and plasma cannon
Buff intimidate so it reduces primary, sidearm and auxillary damage (opposite to deadly aim)
Add deflect chance back to shadow arts


Also, move sidearm damage to support, but only if the devs can make 1st turn not random.

Just some ideas to try to rectify the complete imbalance with the skill trees that cause so much negative comments.

Please look at the new skill trees before commenting on the skill changes.

Cheers,
G00NY

edit: changed the way intimidate could work ;)



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 19:35:59)

^ I appreciate your suggestion to put order into skill trees.



huuduy1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 21:08:10)

TLM with blood lust.... Bad idea <- no one gonna play blood mage if that happen
Can i ask 1 question ???
Why are epicduel change Deflection from support to tech/



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 21:13:39)

@huuduy1
Goony's suggestion has Mercenary with BL, not TLM - big difference.
Also it was changed because Support had too much effects on it and wasn't doing enough. In the long run, it's better. People use CH argument to make others believe it was a wrong decision as they can Tank a lot with the change.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 21:17:03)

@trans People are against the Deflect change because of Malf. If CHs didn't have Malf then half the people wouldn't care about the change aside from support abusers. The only problem I have with the change is Malf. Not CHs though, TMs. Malf and Deadly Aim with High Strength gun does not sound nice at all.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 21:25:25)

If you look at Smoke and Dex, it's pretty much the same. Not only Dex affects your skills, it lowers down enemy's hit rate and yours (blocking) and Smoke can lower it down even further.
Of course Smoke is affected by Malf but it doesn't change the fact Smoke lowers your skills + overall blocking while Malf goes for deflection only. If you block = no damage taken, if you deflect = damage is reduced =/= no damage.
And Malf + DA + Str TM isn't that likely to be seen in-game. Even if strong, they can be countered easily as they are pretty much as balanced as BH's are, although more changes would be good (better synergy with skills).



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 21:30:24)

Str TM+DA+Malf? Lemme counter that
Str TLM/CH>Str TM
Passive armors>DA
Assault bot and shields/passive armors>Malf
:3



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 21:55:54)

@above Yes, because basing balance on only one item and class using a specific skill is really a good idea. [/sarcasm] So what do you say to the people who don't want to abuse tech or have the Assault Bot? "Too bad, this class is perfectly balanced as long as you play as this one class, use this one skill and buy this one piece of gear." Balance doesn't work that way and it never should.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 21:57:27)

Tell me why would TM need Strength? To make Bludgeon stronger, which is only Str skill? Str fits more of BM theme which is glass cannon.
Basing whole build around one stat, TM and Str, is really poor because it won't work and you will die quickly.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 22:20:01)

@Trans
Plus str is the most OP stat atm. TMs can't abuse the most OP stat and that NDude says it's gonna be OP :O



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 22:25:13)

A Strength TM is actually a very deadly build if played right. The only reason BM pulls ahead is probably because of Fireball and Bloodlust. Mainly Fireball though. Fireball gives the most damage out and therefore gives out most health regen. Take that away and TM might pull ahead with Malf and Bludgeon, with energy guns and DA.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 22:32:26)

So judging from that: TM is OP'ed because of it? It's been that way since Alpha yet problem is during Delta.. :|
Also Malf needs Support to improve, and IIRC, DA needs Support as requirement as well. Go for Reroute as well and you need Technology to meet requirement.

So Str TM gets average Malf, Bludgeon, and high damage with no means of defence nor HP regen (if you invest in HP, it's still bad as you can't defend (Support for Matrix, Dex for Technican)). While BMs have Fireball which uses Str, BL to get HP back, can go for Berzerker which goes with Str build while TMs can't. BMs also have DA yet it's fine for them. TMs are normal class, BMs are glass cannons; deal high damage and take high damage.
If BMs pull ahead, like you said, that means TMs are worse than BMs in Str build, or simply - countered! CHs can use Plasma for the Gun+Malf combo, TMs can use Technican, TLMs can train Blood Shield or try to Tank, BMs can counter back with their Fireball + BL combo, Mercs can use SS (if lucky) or Bunker+Multi combo, and BHs can try EMP to destroy Malf (if Str BH, then expect TM to lose quickly).

So wait, where is Str TM deadly? :3 And please, TM and BH are probably most balanced classes right now. Merc being a bit UP'ed and evolved classes taking a lead.



DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 22:35:31)

The only good build that I have seen that works was BloodRainbow's strength TM Build, I really don't remember the details of his build, but he had like med malf, like more than 100 strength, max deadly aim, a physical armor, a low tech, and max bludgeon. I doubt strength builds for tms are the best builds or neither good to get wins, if someone could make some testing, it would be fine.
@ND: if you say that build is deadly, why don't you test it, its ratio should be higher than 90, I really doubt it but no less than 75 calculating almost all classes.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 22:43:40)

STR TM won't ever shine. Just smoke or having good SA and they will only win 80%
Sup TM or SC TM will always be better



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 22:52:45)

@trans

TM:
Bludgeon: cost of 10 energy to 28 energy, 28% damage to 55%.
Reroute: Gives enough energy to Bludgeon and Malf
Malf: Takes away quite a bit when Maxed or at high levels. You don't need to take away 40 tech, 30 does fine quite often.
Deadly Aim: Few guns benefit from Max DA. Frostbolt Blaster(a great strength gun and is energy) gets 9 damage from a lvl 8 DA and only requires 38 support

BM:
Berzerker: quite expensive, only gives 45% at min, max of 90%. Ranges in cost from 27-45
Deadly Aim: Same as TMs
Fireball: Huge damage for BMs. Great for Bloodlust if you have a staff
Bloodlust: Useful for the high damage from Fireball. Zerker is blockable and not always a reliable source of health regen.

Bludgeon definitely can cover up the lack of Berzerker. Malf is a great skill since it greatly buffs up Deadly Aim energy guns(I usually do 30-40 without Malf as a BM) not to mention lowers bot damage of enemies and lowers deflect chance. Reroute allows you to put more points into stuff like health or strength instead of relying on having the energy for a Fireball or Berzerker or sometimes both. The only thing that really puts a BM ahead is Fireball. But few mages ever use a staff, fewer BMs use Fireball



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 22:55:08)

Guys, you should also look at Goony's idea. I quite like it, could balance things out and he probably put his time into it.

Mercs and BL though is meh - good idea but basic classes should be unique. And CHs can still keep Plasma only if Static gets a major change and possibly SA removed. I'd want Static to work like BL and SA for Assimilate because Regen would be good and Assimilate would help it and get strategical value. Hunters are, imo, revolving a bit aroung damage so Energy BL could work well with all builds and favour Support too (Aux, Malf, Multi (Tank/Support build?)). Or Poison, Malf, Energy BL, and Heal/Assimilation. And you still get bunch of other choices.


Str TM topic, test build and give me results please? If Bludgeon misses, you're screwed for 2 turns.
Reroute, Malf, Bludgeon and DA. So max of 33 points:
1-1-1
1-8-1
7-7-1
0-0-8
That's best build. So poor Support gives about 30 something on Malf, DA is good, Bludgeon can miss and Reroute is fine. Sooo, if Bludgeon misses, you rely on Gun and Strike which can miss. And repeat.
You have no means of defense, no Heal, no Res or Def as thry will be poor and not worth using. And you can counter them easily with class skills, read my above post.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 23:12:15)

quote:

TM:
Bludgeon: cost of 10 energy to 28 energy, 28% damage to 55%.
Reroute: Gives enough energy to Bludgeon and Malf
Malf: Takes away quite a bit when Maxed or at high levels. You don't need to take away 40 tech, 30 does fine quite often.
Deadly Aim: Few guns benefit from Max DA. Frostbolt Blaster(a great strength gun and is energy) gets 9 damage from a lvl 8 DA and only requires 38 support

BM:
Berzerker: quite expensive, only gives 45% at min, max of 90%. Ranges in cost from 27-45
Deadly Aim: Same as TMs
Fireball: Huge damage for BMs. Great for Bloodlust if you have a staff
Bloodlust: Useful for the high damage from Fireball. Zerker is blockable and not always a reliable source of health regen.

All BM skills use STR (even Blood Lust) while Maf use Sup
Also Blooslust is way better than RR in this case (less left over, also MP always cost less effect than any other thing)
And if playing a little more defensive BM even beat TM still with 2 really strong Buff skills. Reflex beat technical in anyways while Energy Shield only slightly weaker than DM
Bludgeon also blockable. Berzerker cost effect because it deals more damage in 1 turn than Bludgeon and cost less skill



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/17/2012 23:14:00)

@Trans, yep I did put some time into it ;)

quote:

Mercs and BL though is meh - good idea but basic classes should be unique


I disagree, the only skill I changed with Merc was a non original skill (Blood Shield). That skill was introduced before the new classes and the effectiveness of the new class skill trees.

With my skill trees all classes have a regen skill. Mercenaries are lame now and with the other 5 classes all being able to regenerate health or energy they have little chance except to try and power their way to victory. Highly unlikely given the propensity of blocks and deflections. And blood mages and bounty hunters do power builds much better anyway.

I'd much rather have luck (stat placement) decide the battles than terrible balance between class skill trees ;)

Also, the battle tracker will show how many of each class there are at a given level playing PvP. So, what does that number tell the devs about the % of level 34 characters that are Mercenary class. If it's low could there be a reason... lol

Just buff blood mages now so all classes have had there OP season and then maybe in 3-4 months we can seriously look at the balance... meh!



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 0:23:36)

Man, I seriously want a counter for those irritating Tanks... Didn't realise how bad it was....



Shadronica -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 0:23:54)

If you can't get Merc to be a reasonable working class Goony then there is not much hope for them. [&o]



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 5:07:59)

@Goony,

Tactical Mercenaries - No. Seems like you are planning to make them OP'd again, which can easily be seen from the synergy on the tree.
Cyber Hunters - No. Would make them the lowest in "pyramid". If there ain't a Static Charge its a waste of coding, skill and class. I would definetly demand my 900 Varium for the change back. Taking out Malfuncion is making them totaly UP'd.
Blood Mage - No. Partially looks like an Bounty Hunter copy, Intimidate - Can't argue with that. Overload isn't to be in the 4th tier, as it isn't even that powerfull (Nor Plasma Grenade for that matter)

Mercenary - No. It is pointless, Stun-Zerk no problem along with a huge HP recovery from BloodLust, Support would be OP again because of Artillery Strike, not to mention Technology abuse with Bunker Buster.
Bounty Hunter - No. The grenades shouldn't be so far in the tree, still would allow them to have a great Strenght build. Pointless.
Tech Mage - No. Would make Caster build UP at lower levels, As the Mages wouldn't be able to have enough offense, also Malfuncion shouldn't belong to the 1st tier, as it is quite OP'd at the begining, what do you want to make level 1 Bounty Hunters have a -1 debuff?
-----------
In short. No for all. Sorry.

P.S. Why the hell so much Intimidate?!



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 5:57:55)

^Just a few things, I didn't change Tactical Mercs. If anything I made them weaker by reducing frenzy. The skill trees need to be adjusted, multis are all over the place, energy drain skills are just as bad

The intim on Cyber, sorry bad photo shop skills, malf should be where intim is :(
Static for reroute not too bad considering static is going to be nerfed anyway...

Blood Mage already has intim, I moved some skills... huh!

Refer to skill tree standardisation - every class has a compariable skill at the same tier level...
Wootz, when was the last time you played as or fought a merc?

Sorry, but it's posts like yours that derail balance... You have no idea judging by your stun-zerk comment. It is no threat otherwise all bloodmages would be using it as well... Also, there is nothing I did with Mercs to make support or technology stronger. If anything, I made bunker weaker by removing crit chance... huh again!

And finally, caster build at lower levels... don't make me laugh about not enough offence... bludgeon is the most powerful skill per unit of energy and it is availiable at tier 2. Movement of skills between the top 3 tiers makes little difference to balance. If you don't get it I'll post this part again just to show you what I was trying to do:

quote:

One thing that would help to balance the game would be to create a standard for the skill tree.

Tier 1: Medic | Attack | Debuff
Tier 2: Armor | Regen | Attack
Tier 3: Multi | Buff | Special
Tier 4: Ultimate | Stun | Energy Drain


Wootz, I really don't understand where you are coming from with a lot of your concerns, maybe you should do some more battles and try some other classes... Tank cybers are so common these days and I hope you are enjoying being one of the pack!

Here is the word file, got some better ideas?



huuduy1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/18/2012 8:46:44)

NEW BOT IS STUPID. SERIOUSLY, WHY WOULD PEOPLE BUY Assault Bot = varium. EVEN THEY COULD GET Rusted Assault Bot FOR FREEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!



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