RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/23/2012 9:17:31)

Field Medic is OP, A healer build always have the advantage against others :)




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/23/2012 10:24:43)

what were the balance team thinking for ruining what ever was left of balance with the azreal bot ...

Now STR TLMS can spam worry free of those pesky sheilds, A gaurente win if you start, and the opponent cannot AT ALL play defencively, even though they are forced to right from the very first powerful and constant strikes.

How did it not stuck a thought that perhaps this bot will be abused?? was it even considered?? Obviolsy not and neither was the aussult bot, both these bots have tacken extreme dmagae on balance.


WHY NOT Keep it up and implement a bot that automatically makes you win if you start :D ( Provdidng you have varium and lots of it)

Then obviolsy the end result will be everyone happy because the game isnt about having fun in battles its about winning fast and effortlessy of coarse. ( or so it seems)








IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/23/2012 11:08:14)

@Remorse I do agree everyone at high levels having Rusted Assualt Bot now has made all debuffs useless. That is why I liked the idea of Rusted Assualt Bot being energy like the normal one except -2 damage and a 60% debuff. Besides I see no problem with Azrael Bot because it is a promo item and they are always OPed. I mean you did pay 35-50.00$ for it. But I see your point debuffs and buffs have been made useless at high levels now with everyone having Azrael Bot or Rusted Assualt Bot.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/23/2012 11:20:43)

^ Exactly.

And because buffs and debuffs are alot less useful.

Variety is shrinked because ATTCK SPAMMING builds have alot of counters lost. (meaning they can win effortlessly easy and faster)

For example no longer can you sheild to stand a chance agianst thse builds which only means everyone who once used a build with sheilds now leaves it and goes to ATTCK ABUSE just like 90% of the population.


Its not long before this game will be TOTALLY luck decided because they are constantlly constricitng varity and counters, SOON EVERYONE will be a POWER ATTACK ABUSER because soon the only way you will be able to beat one is to be one.

And perosnally if they contiue on this track with a lack of balance changes to prove the are fixing this problem or to prove THEY EVEN reconise the problem then I will be having some major doubt for the future of the game.




IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/23/2012 11:30:03)

@Remorse Well hopefully Azrael Bot will go rare/perma-rare and disappear for the rest of the year and be overshadowed by a bot that isn't as powerful as it is.




ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/23/2012 23:39:47)

@remorse Show me a 5 focus strength build. There is no OPd way to have 5 focus and amazing strength. Strength builds usually have quite a bit of energy. 5 focus usually has low to default energy. Strength builds need high hp. 5 focus builds don't have the hp. 4 focus strength builds are rare and hardly the most easy to make. You'll be needing 60+ strength from your weapons in order to get damage compared to lower focus strength builds.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 4:24:22)

^ Most STR build are either CH or TLM because of there high defences even without investing in them, their constant energy. ( they dont need high energy)


Both these classes can have a STR build with 5 focus with the SAME str as STR builds have today.

Yes they arent used often because why go 5 focus when the bot does the same damagae as a strike fo a gun and you have LESS hp less liekly to SPAM ATTCKS because your HP is slighty lower.


BUT as soon as you but in a limiting factor eg. use of the bots special with focus, that combined with many requiments on skills and wepons THE STR builds would easily change to the 5 focus version which are JUST as unbalanced as they are now.


STR build are a MAJOR probelm currently and they need to be dealt with. yes they are easily defetated but to have to reily on lcuk.. or out dmage them with the same type of attack spammign build....

WHAT makes it worse is alot of new features the devs release have been making this problem WORSE AND WORSE.

For intanse a new STR BUILD club which has plus 5% crit........ WHAT A TERRIABLE IDEA. (when did we say in our forum discussion we wont luck based batlles worsened???)

LUCK has only become BAD because of these anoying ATTACK SPAMMING builds.
They get bad luck because that is almost the only wat to beat them if they start, and thats via luck.

HOW is it that this issue is unnoticed when PVP is focused around extreme power, starting and LUCK!

Many people asuume the dex CH build is oped. WHY? because it is a build that can kill the STR ABUSERS more often then not simply because of luck and up until now STR abusers are used to getting effotless wins if they start.

NOW the things like the azreal BOT has also made things ALOT worse by ruining the effectiveness of sheilds.

WHY? is it that 80% of the population of level capped varium players are forced and are using EFFORTLES SPAMMING STR BUILDs.

Im am soooooo sick of it, because they force everyone who isnt using that type of build to use one because the only effective way persides luck is to kill them before they are killed.


MANY BALANCE issues are linked to this, why is it mages seem underpowered? WHY is it blood mages only have ONE effective build???


BECAUSE the bulk of the population USE these builds and if you class doesnt have an effective VERSION its underpowered.... HOW dum is that?
WHy not weaken the MAIN probelm instead of trying to give every class and effortless spamming quick killing method!
WHY do you think th supercharge MAGE build seems to be the only option to go as a mage? BECAUSE OF THE POPULATION.

IF builds like these were made weak to the point were they cant get strategy ingoring build to work effortlessy on anything that DOEST have CONSTANT HIGH DMAGAE. THEN balance would fix intself, and you may find class that are now considered UPed arent att all.

To make these builds weaker WITHOUT nerfing them and WITHOUT leading to diffrent tank style build to be oped is to invent NEW counters to improve balance.

In other words release feature THAT have the OPPISITE effect of the current new balance ruining ones.
For example WHY make a bot that makes sheild useless..... WHY not just give the starter play an automatic win if they think this is how balance should be handled.
They need to make bots to have a defensive stance agaisnt these powerful builds such as a bot that reduces SUPERdamage any damage which above expected stadard, or perhpas a bot that minimises CONSTANT damage which means if you attack after attack after attack the dmagae is slowly minimised by the number if times you attack in a row.

And if tanks become a problem, then do the same sort of theroy but to reduce defences, if the tank atatcks after atatcks after attacks then there defnces are lowered by the amount they atatck in a row.

The problem is BATTLES are not strategy, they are not correct timed attacks, they ARE CONSTANT UN counterable cheap attacks not allowing the oppoennet to use strategy because they are either forced to play defensive but that fails without luck or spam atatcks faster then them to stand a chance...
WHY should the only effective non ATTACK based build reily on LUCK (blocks) its rediclous.

FIX THE GAMES TERIBALE STATE OF BALANCE!




Cyberbeast10 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 10:17:33)

I haven't played for quite some time (At least in the high levels), but if effortless STR builds are the problem, this is what they should do:

1. Buff defensive skills
2. Increase requirements of a non-STR stat for a powerful weapon.
3. Make focus increase defense and resistance.
4. Change gun damage to be reliant on the DEX stat.
5. Make a bot that can cause intimidate.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 10:31:17)

^ The problem is Effortless STR builds have also led to super tank build which can withstand ALOT and usally spam attacks to the same degree.

It would be difficult to buff defences alone without considering side effects to the extreme tank builds aswell.

Which is why I think they need to focus on rewarding builds that dont attack spam and rather take turns to set up strategy because usally ultra tanks dont fall under this catagory either.

Its a bit unfair that using a precous turn to sheild which does not give rage yet a attack spammer can reduce the sheild to almost nothing AND get rage on top its like they want attack spammers to be the only option.

I like idea 4. and 5. but the dex to gun would need serious testing and dex would need to lose some of its perks before hand.
idea 5. is good but perhaps instead of coping and existing skill how about a bot which reduces primary damage for certain amount of time like for example reduce primary damage by 50% for 3 turns. (rather then reduce strength)


idea 1. would be too dificult to manage without making balance worse in some areas.
idea 2. has prven time and time agian that requimnet are inefctive to stop these builds because of the large stats given from enhacements.
And idea 3 also has the some problems as idea 1.

Apart from that good ideas :)




Oba_2 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 10:51:14)

Take away CH's EMP. Them being able to take, and regain, energy is not a good combo for the balance.

quote:

1. Buff defensive skills
2. Increase requirements of a non-STR stat for a powerful weapon.
3. Make focus increase defense and resistance.
4. Change gun damage to be reliant on the DEX stat.
5. Make a bot that can cause intimidate.


THIS, would only cause more players going 5 focus/tanks. Wheres the fun if everyone uses the same build?




Cyberbeast10 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 11:02:09)

I think they should make it so rage increases less from a strike or having excessive STR causes rage to increase slower. This would help defensive builds against STR builds and hinder minimally other builds from fighting tank builds.





Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 11:08:28)

^ Yes something like that would help but it may lead to tanks becoming oped.


I have invented a diffrent sort of rage style system called mediation which works on rewarding those who dont spam attacks.

I think it would get the same intention as you idea without possibly leading to oped tanks.



@oba,

I agree that in normal battles against builds which dont spam attacks energy regain and drain combo is a bit oped, but so too os a TLM's atom smash and reroute.





Cyberbeast10 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 11:21:32)

Ah yes, I read about that and its a very excellent idea!
But the way I say Rage should be changed is like this (Example only: no real values I'm proposing):

Rage gain on strike is halved
Having excessive STR (50) decreases rage gain by 10%
Continuing to exceed that amount (75 STR) lower it further: 50%

Now here is something to counter tank builds:

Hitting 3 on strike: Normal Rage gain
Hitting 3 on anything, but strike or special skills: +25% rage gain
Hitting 3 on special skills: +50% rage gain

This should weaken pure tank builds and STR builds.

As for defensive skills, maybe they should be changed? Instead of increasing a stat, they should lower damage by a fixed percent. Of course, this would mean they would need to be tweaked further. For example, switching defense matrix to lower damage by 25% instead of raising defense by 8.

This way, defensive skills will help in fighting STR builds, but will make sure tanks can't buff their defenses too much.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 11:24:28)

^Awsome ideas :D

Love it.

I cant see anything wrong from my quick look. great work :)





Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 11:55:01)

I wanted to evaluate on rage in my post on page #21 and didn't have good idea and now it got stolen.. ._.' D:

I like STR idea, adding some sort of scaling to balance it out (fixed rates won't work over 34 Lvls span but idea can work) but it's good! And I did evaluate on Dex and how it could change blocking but I don't think it goes under your suggestion of lowering damage.. :( xD

@below
Didn't mean exactly stolen, just to add maybe humour to it.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 12:44:00)

^ Alot of ideas are often similar, doesnt mean they were stolen.

Heck I even rmeber sugestiong making dex improve side arm back on the old forums that doesnt meen i was the first or that my idea was stolen, just means alot of people think the same.

Which is a good thing because it means there is a same interest hence changes we want are more lickely to occur




TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:00:14)

Field Medic should be nerfed alot

Why? Because its OP, a healer build always win others and it kill strategy, ppl just heal and spam attack continuesly and win everybody. I also use healer build so im asking a nerf to my build.

With current heal, 7 lvl FM = 51 hp , i got 125 hp 33-40-1 def 20-24+9+11-1 res, now imagine i healed 3 times with the help of Static 51+51+51+125 = 278 hp, and look my defenses, how can my oponents kill me without any luck factor(btw since i got 121 dex i do block alot)

Energy return classes shouldnt have Field Medic in my opinion or Def+Res should reduce effectiveness of field medic.

Formula would be ,
quote:

[Field Medic Heal amount - Max def/7 - Max res/7]


Ex: 7 lvl field medic with 33-40-1 def 20-24+9+11-1 res

7 lvl FM(51 hp)- Max def(39)/7 - Max res(43)/7 = 51-6-7 = 38 heal

OR simply make it Once per Battle




Cyberbeast10 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:03:38)

Why did they change the Field Medic to scale with level in the first place? What was the problem with it?




TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:07:18)

@Cyberbeast10

1 lvl FM was giving 63 hp, Support TLM was OP

watch my videos you will understand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7GRdR4aU30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWqit4CtCeQ




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:09:20)

I think healing is fine now Turkish,


People are ment to be able to stand a chnace with heal, we can all attack spam and hope to start for a free win.
Just my opinion.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:20:22)

Healing is fine, investing in it makes it better which makes a lot of sense. But problem lies within CHs and Heal, why should other classes get punished because of them?
Static Charge will be nerfed or Plasma will be gone (still want all passive Armors gone but HA for Mercs to stay) so they won't do it anymore. I have my heal at Lvl 5 and it goes well with my TM, with about 1/2 and a lil' bit more of Turkish's values - blame me, I don't have any passive Armor, stat-abusing build, but Support/Tank'ish.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:43:59)

They could make a bot which reduces effectiveness of oppoennets heal for 2 turns.

That would counter most heal looping builds.




IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:48:50)

Field Medic is not OPed. It is fine it has 4 turn cooldown and no longer improves with support. It is only a problem with OPed Heal looping Tank CHs. All classes should not have to suffer because of one.




Cyberbeast10 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:52:23)

The only way I can think of nerfing heal loop builds without hurting non-heal loop builds is diminishing returns.
Let's say your Field medic heals for 100:

First use heals 100
Second use heals 80
Third use heals 60
Fourth use heals 40
Fifth use heals 20
Field medic is locked for the rest of the battle

Pretty much Field medic weakens each use until you can't use it anymore. In my opinion, if you need to heal more than 5 times (Survive for 20 turns), then you're doing something wrong and should consider reworking your build.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/24/2012 13:52:41)

@isaih
Exaclty,

no one has to suffer if they use counters as a means of fixing problems....


Above.

heal doesnt need to be changed counters solve everything because if there is an oped combination the only reason its oped is because its hard to counter.




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