RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 11:04:20)

I'd be for NOT removing enhancements off Guns and Auxes. My opinion might be biased as once you get something, you don't want to give it back so yeah..
What could be done is make AQW-style enhancements. So you could use Lvl 1 weapon with L34 enhancement BUT you'd suffer from much lower stat bonuses from the weapon + crap damage. Not sure how this could work out by giving boost to stats, but it could be done in 2-3 Lvl breaks and give +1 more stat per each upgrade. Different types would give variety of set-ups (Mage enhancement could be perhaps Tech and Support, Warrior maybe Str and Dex, etc). Pricing would also have to go down to make it affordable for everyone, even those who use Credits to keep it fair and Varium should be given as an alternative payment.
If this was to work, even if you couldn't afford top-Lvl enhancements, you could get small advantage buying lower Lvl ones and to upgrade, you'd just pay the difference between new one and old.

But if they were to be simply removed, I could live with it for one reason:
Staff has a 'tool' to give enhancements back as Varium. I had it proved when I got hacked and some enhanced (fully) items were sold and I got them back + Varium for enhancements.
So in other words, we'd get the Varium back + spend less on enhancing new items + be able to afford more items + Varium would be actually worth buying and not as often as we need now.



Prakash 007 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 11:12:49)

^ on hearing that i say enhancements should go if i get a complete refund for the varium i used (i wasted tons of it for max enhancements) so this way nxt time ill be more careful anyway ;)



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 11:14:57)

Although difference was that I was hacked and items were completely sold (mainly rare so proof was bought promos) but if they were to delete them 2, Varium should be refunded as track of it is somewhere in saved pages of our characters (Help Team has the data) and it could be refunded in a way.
Pretty sure Credits would also be tracked so you don't end up getting 2K Varium for buying 10 enhancements with Credits. xD



Prakash 007 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 11:21:28)

hey i enhanced for 1700 varium, so would i get 15% of that or the full 1700?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 11:23:38)

I received full refund for the hack, should be the same as you didn't sell the weapon IF enhancements would disappear but like gone so you should get full Varium back.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 11:23:47)

quote:

Remorse:

If they are struggling with making money hence why they keep enahcments, then Implement a new feature THAT DOESNT destory balance to make up for it!


That.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 12:35:17)

Here is the list of weapons from that Jpeg image
Surgical Slicers
Weapon Details
Damage Type: Energy
Equipment Type: Wrist Blade
Damage: 34
Enhancement Slots: 5
Stat Modifiers
Strength: 0
Dexterity: +11
Technology: +11
Support: 0
Requirements
Level Required: 34
Strength required: 0
Dexterity required: 38
Technology required: 36
Support required: 0

Kurz Elite
Weapon Details
Damage Type: Energy
Equipment Type: Gun
Damage: +31
Enhancement Slots: 7
Stat Modifiers
Strength: 0
Dexterity: +12
Technology: +4
Support: +6
Requirements
Level Required: 33
Strength required: 0
Dexterity required: 41
Technology required: 32
Support required: 0

Caterpillar Bugzooka
Weapon Details
Damage Type: Physical
Equipment Type: Auxiliary
Damage: 39
Enhancement Slots: 9
Stat Modifiers
Strength: +2
Dexterity: +10
Technology: +4
Support: 0
Requirements
Level Required: 34
Strength required: 26
Dexterity required: 35
Technology required: 32
Support required: 0

All weapons old and new should have requirements especially the primary in the stats where they can make sure the player can't increase the other stats to an unfair advantage. With the weapons from the beginning able to have 10 enhancement slots with those enhancement slots it should have came requirements as well. If that Cyber Hunter in the jpeg had nothing but Beta weapons only requirements he would have to meet is skill requirements. They know what stats each class uses to get the power or tank builds all they have to do is have the stat requirements on the primary at the stat where they know players will have it at its lowest.

So whether you like it or not if a weapon gets to have enhancement slots especially 10 then the wepons should have requirements to use.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 15:07:27)

Looking at the 2 classes with passive armors in Tactical Merc and Cyber Hunters, as mentioned, they both have skills where there their builds can move forward or backwards due to Frenzy, Reroute, Static and EMP. I wondered if the passive armors could mimic Blood shield where it take a turn to use and only lasts 4/5 turns.

I also think taking emp away from CH and replace with assimilation would provide more thought into their builds. No class can strip and regain the amount of energy like CH's do, and this poses problems for builds based on energy skills from non CH classes.

Blood Mages need a energy reducer skill, this will open up more possibility in build variants. High Dmg, low defense builds should not be the only option.

I have been working with my BM alt, and using a passive approach, it has been difficult, and it requires so much preparation. She is at 31 with about 70 stat bonuses, and I am not sure how she will be at cap with near/full enhancements, but she is a defensive liability in 2v2 if she is 3 or 4 in order of turns.




Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 15:19:00)

quote:

I also think taking emp away from CH and replace with assimilation would provide more thought into their builds. No class can strip and regain the amount of energy like CH's do, and this poses problems for builds based on energy skills from non CH classes.

Blood Mages need a energy reducer skill, this will open up more possibility in build variants. High Dmg, low defense builds should not be the only option.


Yes and YES!! This is what I have been saying alot lately. And it really need to be as this [:)]
Yet I personally think CH's not should get assimilation either. Due the fact that the can regain so much energy - should they not be able to take away enemies energy. Not even 3.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 15:27:20)

@playarn
Assimilation could work instead of EMP if you were to take Plasma Away. No Tanking anymore would mean Static is fine as it is now and having such a high Energy reducer is still a bit too much.
Take Plasma out, swap EMP for Assimilation and we're good to go with them.
TLMs the same, swap Mineral with Defence Matrix and they are good to go too.

Balance will be much better that way and what we can expect after that is buffs to other classes instead of nerfs.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 15:29:29)

@playarn

You just said that you support giving CH assimilation AND not letting them have it.

Read Jzaanu's and your own post again. [:D]



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/26/2012 15:39:37)

I ment that I have been saying the same about CH's being able to regain + take energy way to much. And I support that taking that possibility away. YET I dont really think CH's (as they are now with the other skills) are worth getting assimilation. But it is better then them having EMP.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 5:30:35)

I agree with trans that both plasma armor and mineral need to be switched.

But I still think gun and aux enahments have to go (with a 100% sellback of coarse).
I dont undertstand why people seem to think its taking something away from them, it isnt everyone get the same loss in stats so pretty much nothing has changed except total less atts are lower and balance isnt ruined.

Did anyone read my idea for a sheild for cyber hunters, (to replace plasma armour)
The way it works is if they want an energy sheild they have to send a static sharge into cool down to get it,

That would solve this issue with Tank CHs and having too much energy.

here it is:
quote:

STAIC SHEILD:
Uses up a whole static charge (If blocked it still activates, and sends it into cool down)
and convertes a % of the energy regain from the skill into an energy sheild wich lasts 4 turns and grows in defence each time you are dmaaged (charges itsself)

Each time you are hit 5% of the dmagae tacken is added to the sheild
warm up :0 Cool down :2
lvl 1: 20% of the static charge
lvl2: 25% of the static charge
lvl3: 30%
lvl4: 33%
lvl 5 36%
lvl6: 39%
lvl7: 42%
lvl8: 44%
lvl9: 46%
max: 48%

For example:
A cyber hunter has lvl 1 static sheild and decides to use it.
on clciking this skill they use static charge like normal as if they cliked static charge but instead they clciked static sheild (it sends static charge into cool down also), excpet they gain NO energy from it but a % of the energy regain is turned into a sheild in this example the cyber hunter gets a static charge of 20 energy. 20% of 20 =4
So they have an energy sheild of 4 added for 4 turns yes it is low but its only level one and it grows in power as they are damaged.
For example they are agianst a blood mage which uses fireball and it hits 50 damagae onto them, 5% of the 50 dmagae is added to the sheilds 5% of 50=2.5 rounded to 3 so they gain an extra 3 energy sheild onto the 4 so they now have 7 energy sheild with 3 turns remaning and so on and so forth.

NOTE: skill tree would need to be aranged so static sheild came after static charge and you have to go through static charge to get it, so in other words the player cant have static sheild without static charge hence stuff up the system.




And TLMs mineral could be a simple change such as change if for Defence matrix.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 11:57:48)

Remorse about enhancements:
I do realise they are "balance breakers" and I can see your point, if not even support it, but once Hudelf and Titan work together on Exp and Credits scaling to your Lvl (so at higher Lvl, Credits will be much easier to gain), then enhancements will be cheaper (Credits) because you can afford them a lot more easily than now. What would work with enhancements is also scaled pricing.
Why? Because at lower Lvl, if I want small boost (I mean literally small) then I won't throw away 3.5K Credits for one stat enhancement. Varium could be the same but no drastic changes to pricing, perhaps the higher slots could be a bit cheaper; face it, 2K is quite a lot.. Above 1K is fine, maybe 1.5K at most? Because currently for Varium players, new item means usually 2.5K Varium - 1K for item and about 1.5K for enhancing and that's 25% of whole Varium OR $12.50.. -.-
Credit scaling in battles + enhancement would give you advantage at lower Lvls if you had spare credits and with lower prices, you could afford them much easily than now and that'd apply to everyone!

About your idea:
It's quite good and could be places in place of Plasma (so to get it, it'd go from Cheap to Static to Shield). It's quite creative and not too OP'ed either but it'd still slightly favour Str builds in initial boost perhaps. Not too much as 10 more Energy (30ish) would give up to 5 more Res at most at Lvl 10 which is fine but that allows them to have a bit higher defence and still quite high damage. Also from what I've read, once I use Shield then my SC is also in cooldown? It's pointless as that's a defensive move while other classes get to have Reroute and regain even when spending turn to shield. Perhaps giving SC a 3 turn cooldown would solve it without putting it into cooldown after Shield.
Although I don't think a roundabout method would be required, class could be simply fixed by adding Technican in place of Plasma which only improves EMP and Stun Grenade which isn't too bad. Perhaps Static + EMP is quite a combo but giving Static a 3 turn cooldown and no Plasma Armor wouldn't allow them to get their Energy back as quick nor EMP us every 2 turns (regen, EMP, attack, regen, EMP, etc - Tanking combo).
Idea is good, but if we're talking about fixing the class now then simple method can be done and more advanced/fun skills could be added later on in the game.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 12:13:09)

It is so ridiculous and at the same time funny seeing the posts that CH would be better off using assimilation than static charge. Seriously, it needs a staff and CH's only use swords and wrist blades. It's not like CH's become mages and if CH's were to have assimilation, that means Titan and Nightwraith would require to code the CH using a staff.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 12:16:10)

King, what I meant was use Assimilation in place of EMP - not Static Charge. o.o Doing that would make them probably weaker than Mercs now.. o.o
But I also thought about using Staff + Assimilation + CH. That's why I raised the point above but did not include it. Main problem is simply the Plasma Armor and perhaps giving one more turn cooldown for Static Charge if it's still too strong without Plasma.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 12:27:14)

^ Thanks for the feedback to start :)

As of enhancements, I think they should have NO place in lower levels, Its good having hardly any varium players at low levels because at that time new players are in Interested mode. If suddenly lower level games became bias like it is in higher level ones then I think ALOT of new players will just ditch the game before they give it a chance, many people already do that and making battles bias will likely make it worse.

Also remember if they lean players to by varium at these lower levels then most of the new players will just forget about it, I know I didnt even consider it untill I was around lvl 30.

And for the balance side, Im glad you understand the implications and I want to make it clear that the EXTREME cost is not what concerns me here although it is a factor.
You say titan will improve ways to get credits and such which is great so before you know it enhancemnts wont take a milloin years to get via credits rather a few months...
BUT in the end IF NO ONE has it IT MAKES NO diffrence!!! You need to earse the thought of seeing your enahments go when you picture this because what you are picturing is a disadvantage to you.
IT is not that AT all!!! enhacemnets actuly DO not help players what soever in battle if eveyone has them so if suddely eveyone had some removed it makes NO diffrence. (apart from reduce varium non varium gap but I reckin thats fair.)

The same sort of thing had to be explained when diminishing returns on stats was introduced, eveyone hated it at the start because everyone thought there build was weaker, but if everyones build is weaker.. NO ONES IS!


And answering you feedback on my sheild idea,
Yes it is slightly in favor of Strength builds but it would be the first and only sheild that improves with strngth and even so the changes are very minor.
Sending the static into cool down may seem like a big disadvantage but its actuly not!

If you cnsider the first turn you have to use the energy so you can start gaianing it, well you could static sheild the first turn thus making the cool down timing more effcient because it allows you to send static charge into cool down early and give you a sheild.
But at the same time STOPS the player who would possibly abuse the sheild by using it more then once per game, if it stopped you from using static people wouldnt be able to abuse the constant sheilding.
But if they do sheild then they dont get energy half the time so it stops the abailty to heal loop.

If static was 3 turns first you may get alot of complaints, but you could still heal loop even with 3 cool down.

With my way you cant have both High defences and ALOT of energy which gives the CH's the abailty to heal loop.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 12:38:58)

I just noticed about Static Shield - there's no Energy cost right? If so, then I wouldn't mind SC going into cooldown but I'd keep it at 2 cooldown because 3 could be a bit too much (it'd restrict use of Shield; Shield, debuff, attack, static, attack, attack/debuff, shield (as it's gone for 1 turn and you activate on 2nd turn). And as they'd need Resistance boost from time to time, it'd work out quite nice as you cannot Tank just like you said. Of course as long as there's no EP cost for Shield then it can work with cooldown. ^^

Will agree on the "interested" mode as it's normal a customer wants to have a go at using "his product" before he decided to buy it. Makes sense as once you get into the game, Varium gives you advantage but you know investing could be good idea. Unless of course, you're experienced player already and using one of your alts.
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20111103 <- or simply 1st comment on this page. I suggested AQW-style enhancements but you can ignore that and read the 2nd paragraph which works out for both sides here about enhancements.
I'm not sure at the moment, but if the Gun+Aux enhancements were to go - would it be good idea to slightly lower the decaying of some skills? Gun+Aux can give you up to 20 Stat points advantage which is 5 Lvls and with newer Varium items it's usually about 15-16 instead but still 4 Lvls then. This could technically lower down Primary's damage by up to 4 damage, same with Aux, or up to 4 Res/Def at most. Doesn't seem too big but the dimnishing/decaying could be a bit weaker unless I'm wrong and it should stay the way it is now.
While I see one side to it, other is perhaps to stop stat abusing which is also fair point of decaying but I'm not sure as I said.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 12:52:54)

^ STAIC SHEILD:
Energy cost:0 (Well technically it costs as much as Static charge gives you because you miss out on a static charges energy)

I had actuly sugested implementing some type of similar request for things like leveling up wepons (similar to aqw)
But I no this is a dead end because I got a pretty clear message from the balance team where they stand on buffing older wepon such as rares and that is NEVER xD


When you say remove some balance changes after enahments is removed, That is a big yes infact on most of my BIG rant posts abotu enhancments I usally mention that.


Infact Many requiremnts, Diminshed returns, AND POSSIBLY AGIALTY
could be removed of the sufecient amount of enhacments were, for me its hard to tell of gun and aux enhaments alone would be enough to include removing agailty but I know that agailty was a result of enhaments.

they could go the full thing here and remove all my enahments but implemnt my wepon unlocking idea to make up for loss of build customisation ease. (One thing enahmnets is good for)
With primary and armour that would easily be suffecient enough to still make builds easy to customise but obvilsy harder to abuse, if they would rather keep the old method.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 13:05:26)

Requirements to go yes but not completely. Or they could stay but quite lowered to make it easier to get them + not promote stat abusing as much. Dimnishing links to stat abusing so I'd probably still keep it at similar Lvl to now I suppose but that's not up to me nor I have sufficient data to prove it'd be a good idea.
And Agility should stay, even if Gun+Aux were gone. With lower requirements, I wouldn't like to see HP Tanks with average'ish damage but decent skills and proving to be better. Currently 125 gives you just -1 Res and Def which isn't bad but already is quite a Tank. *I prefer to have it at 110 so I can Tank as Support TM + just lose +1 Res/Def. :P*

The enhancing idea, AQW-style, wouldn't you say it'd still promote buying Varium? Of course prices for low-Lvl enhancing would be a LOT lower but the higher ones shouldn't be over the top, for Credits, either because we want to make them affordable for everyone - not waste Varium on it.. <.<
I like how AQ did it with Stat Training, it costs quite a bit of Gold but can be farmed back and added Z-Tokens (Varium alternative) as alternative to pay for training. It isn't usually worth to train once you get to higher range as it costs quite a lot but good at lower Lvl if you're "craving" for Gold I suppose.
Also if refunds would be given for enhancements, it wouldn't be a hassle as they would give it back for your current enhanced items. Those sold don't count as you well, sold them, so what's there to track in database? Yes players would lose on it but it doesn't put too much pressure on Devs nor puts them at disadvantage of giving thousands of Varium back to one player. I'd lose on it a bit myself but could live with it, I'd probably lose about 3K Varium on that I suppose but life goes on.
May I add, it'd give Varium a better value than now. Enhancing would still cost the fair bit but you could at least get Gun and Aux more often and have enough Varium. Enhancements would give you advantage but let's not make it 40 stat advantage which costs me whole Varium package even because I don't wanna spend too much on game but still have enough to buy items once in a while + promotional package too.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 13:12:31)

^ Already thought of that xD

Simply make an enahments sell back and let the player do it them selves while making the enahments actuly add no bonus to propt people to get the sellback.

Best part is you can get a Sell back of watever you choose :O (unless the data base knows how you purchased the enhancements then just do it that way)
So non variums may get a chnace to get a bit of varium here (But unless they spent around 200k of credits on enheaments its unlikey theyl get more then 1000 varium)
And people who spend varium could get insaine amount of credits xD


And yes obviolsy not all requiments would be removed and some could be only reduced but I think there would defintately be changes that can be made.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 13:24:10)

Or that, you could just make Guns and Auxes have higher sellback when sold but it'd not be fair for those perma-rare items. You can't get Varium back, it got somewhat wasted after the change and only way is selling and never getting the item back - not a good choice. :P Unless you meant "sell enhancements" feature which could be new feature to get Varium back but maybe 50% of it (100% for Guns and Auxes) which would prove as good as selling the item itself but main point would be - Rare Primary but better comes out; don't you want better weapon but Varium back? Then you could "unenhance" and get 50% Varium back. It'd be quite useful for those who don't find a use of rare items anymore. :P
But those who spent even Credits on it should get it back - it takes time to farm as much to enhance using them so it's normal to give them back unless it's all as Varium which will affect still fewer people as not many enhance using Credits.

Overall now, I think it's quite a good idea if we take all that into the account. Refund on sellback is there, the new feature could work with it and saves time for Devs to check every single character on Varium items, balance is better, gap is a bit smaller, Varium has better value. *not bad meme* xD

And we basically took care of balancing passive Armors too, simple solution is there and yours could work in the future/spare time where Devs could test new things without delaying requested features/changes. Or simply put - long term project I suppose. ^^



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 13:33:09)

quote:

King FrostLich
It is so ridiculous and at the same time funny seeing the posts that CH would be better off using assimilation than static charge. Seriously, it needs a staff and CH's only use swords and wrist blades. It's not like CH's become mages and if CH's were to have assimilation, that means Titan and Nightwraith would require to code the CH using a staff.


With the suggestions given, they are valid. I think we all know Assimilation is a mage skill, but Assimilation was used as an example. But that does not mean an Assimilation-Type skill cannot be introduced within the skill trees. Both Tac-Merc and Cyber Hunters are nearly mere mirror of each other. Both have passive armors that can be stacked where defense on one side is not worried about, and provide challenges just attacking on that side. In addition, both have capabilities of passive low reach regeneration through, Frenzy, Static, Reroute, and in-directly emp grenade.

What you viewed as funny or ridiculous is just only that term as like-replacement, but the issues are valid. I think you knew the gist of suggestions were of like-replacements, and you could have easily said Assimilation is only a mage skill, yet you chose to add the additional terms to lessen the value of the suggestions.







Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 13:38:14)

@ Trans
Indeed ,

Im glad I could convert your thinking about this :) (Means theres hope for the devs xD)

And yes I did intend that there be a new enhacment sellback feature to be added.
Though I like the inculding enhaments more in the wepon sellback idea! (thats could work to)


If they get rid of plasma and mineral AND take care on enhamnets.

I will be very happy with this game because it should return to how it was in early gamme late beta.

I remember being able to just think of a build as creative as you wnated AND IT could WORK :O
Almost everyone had diffrent build so there was ALOT more varity, the game was actuly fun with the variety because you got new constant chalenges and and usses all skill to there potential.

Gone are those day and I have tried SOO hard to get them to return!

@Jzannu

Dont worry I understood that it ment either changing assimilation to also work withclaws/swords or creating a new similar skill like asimilation.
Persoanlly I think it is a good idea but one problem is CH will have WAY too many skills requiring strikes.
Malf,Static,cheap,masacre,venom and asimilation?? it becomes a bit much and sorted forces CH to be a STR AND DEX type build or at least limts them to have reaosnable STR and DEX.

Maybe make a new asimilation style skill perhaps make it so you need to use your aux! (but it didnt give the energy regain/the 50% return)
Just a quick sugestion.






Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/27/2012 13:46:10)

Well selling enhancements would be good if Gun and Aux were to lose enhancements and if you wanted to use better item and get some Varium back from old, unused one which also makes sense and would be quite fun too.
Also there's downside perhaps for removing enhancements profit wise, or seems like it, but in reality players would be much more pleased to buy more Varium if they knew it will last them for longer and is worth getting it. Now some players get 10K every 2 months, I can live with 10K twice a year or even once (depends on promo) but if promo is good, Varium has a value and pleases the customer - it's only better for the business, ED, to try to follow the same way of thinking. Customer always comes first.
Lastly build could be better, even with less stats, you wouldn't feel as weak without them as everyone would lose on them and like you said - there would be no difference so why not.

Perhaps balance update on Friday might include our first step towards changes, passive Armors, then we can go for enhancements. :P

Also I gotta PM you something regarding Balance Topic, small suggestion so watch out! ^.^



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