RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Rui.. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 7:53:50)

hun king you fail at playing a blood mage. Blood mages are not meant to be defensive like your build. Try fighting a guy called devastator his fireball is at 87 damage. With my 130 dex he hits over 48 non rage. Next the gun does another 40. By now i am on my knees ready to meet his zerk. See me complaining no:) i did try to matrix but the new bot loves to sting me into a heart broken state. Learn to play your class or go aux and rain on a merc.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 9:48:33)

Devastator would have the same problems Hun King talks about in 2v2...
...and that's what he's talking about.

I'm not speaking for Devastator, but a bloodmage who commits all to power could be taken out
in 2v2 easily by a nerf, then an emp or atom smash, etc... He would have enough power to stay with one good player, but not with two. That's why that build would be a fail against 2v1 bosses as well.

It's great for 1v1, no argument there, but that's the build you basically have to go with. Hun King's point (and even mine) is that bloodmages look a lot better on paper "because" of that build working in 1v1.

Bloodmage needs better defenses in 2v2 just to survive. ...and if you just ignore the nerfs, how many 40 point hits can you handle? You can't bloodlust your way out of that...




Colarndo -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 10:02:26)

BM easily loses to CH in 2V2.

1st rd: EMP Nade , no mp for fireball/heal/zerker.
Option: Strike/Aux/Sidearm/Reflex boost
2nd rd: Mal
Option: Only left enough Mp for a energy shield. /Assault bot and still lose a turn.
3rd rd: Static Charge. Their mp becomes full again.
Option: Still no mp to do anything so you strike/aux/sidearm/bot
4th rd: Cheapshot/Strike/Mass
Option: You're dead.

The balance team probably did not use a BM in the 2v2 testing.



The Anonymous -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 10:17:18)

What about us "Tacticals?" I think we should get TECHNICIAN instead of BLOOD SHIELD. Blood shield isn't really helpful...



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 10:42:03)

Technician already made tactical mercenaries overpowered. Smokescreen and bot damage was increased to a point of extreme damage and dexterity debuff that's why blood shield replaced it.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 10:57:33)

This might seem like a crazy idea.

But I think balance has become so poor now because classes are to vercitile.... (just hear me out)

Back in beta if you used a STR build it was risky because many players had conuters out their but these days builds which were never ment to be versitile are becoming just that.
Result: Luck determines the victor much more often... Sound farmiliar?

Perhaps, and I know people wont like it, but theoretically you can buff classes constantly end result same old OPed builds.
Or you could add requiment nerfs, end result, Builds still have close to the same versitility, meaning same oped builds.


BUT,
What if each individual class was looked at and what makes thier class so versitile when it shouldnt for instance in builds which take no sacrifises of turns such as STR builds.
And if it was slightly changed to be beatin?

If you dont like the nerf approach the same thoery would work if NEW counters were made which made these Builds less versitile.
More counters are the key to more variety, Unfortuntely more and more feature are being added which REDUCE counters such as, Aussult bot, Heartbreaker bot, Passive armour and energy regain combinations.

But it is not the end, I belive the key to better balance is to create new counters for the oped, rather then buffing all who isnt or adding a silly requirement!

Peace out!
Remorse Less.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 11:34:00)

gr8 to know that the lag the balance tracker caused in 2v2 does not help the devs find any well useful data to help balance 2v2. well it seem i will have to wait till omega stage till the devs actually do balance 2v2. well basically i think the balance team did not even concentrate to balance 2v2 because a bigger population play 1v1 so they rather balance 1v1 first before balancing 2v2. they think that by balancing 1v1 they can kill 3 birds with 1 stone and balance jug mode and 2v2 mode too. But the fact are 2v2 and jugs are way different compared to 1v1. so i ask the devs to CONSIDER balancing 2v2 and jug mode before it gets out of control. i would like to add that 2v2 is already out of control the balance in 2v2 is so horrid that i cant even stand playing it sometimes. sometimes i wonder if the devs care about 2v2 players.





Sparticus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 11:38:30)

What does the mythical balance tracker say about BH these days? The discussion centers about 2 abuse classes all the time but we never hear about BHs.

All I ever face are CH with malf/SC/Mass builds of varying degrees and BM with Plasma/zerker STR abuse builds. I don't think we need a so called tracker to see the unbalanced classes and the abuses here.

Deal with the endless energy regains from CH and cap the potential STR abuse of BM before you add more features. I would think a team of bright players would be able to deal with this quickly, oh wait, your telling me there is already a balance team? Wonder how they are dealing with this? Ahhh tech for deflection.......[:'(] (Strike, SC, Massacre, Plasma + Berzerker all can't be deflected right?) Never mind.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 12:14:26)

^ Like I say I think it should be about adding counters to make balance.


I Agree that alot of oped combinations realiy on heavy damage skills,
Most have a energy regian... so what is left to counter them?? MANY things.

One off the top of my head is a robot with the special abailty to attack with 80% damage, and give 1 warm to all the oppenents attack skills (includes debuffs or blockable skilled attacks) AND drain 25% of their rage.
Could be very useful on some of the oped masacre build from both Chs and BHS cause if you start you could delay their masacre by two turns! that or all super moves.

Result a sucseful counter for the extreme skill power builds and a major counter for those inefective to energy drains, plus slow thier constant high rage rate

Anything harder? xD



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 14:08:02)

I wonder why they chose a robot idea which cuts away from players who used buffs towards their tactics?

Btw, the word tactic(s) here, will never be the same.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 14:31:23)

I was browsing through previous posts, mainly about Bots now:
They, are quite strong at the moment. Assault Bot and Heart Borg in particular. As we know, Yeti's special is only useable once per battle. Would changing these 2 bots to once per battle help in the end? In those really long fights, both bots can be used at least twice which gives advantage; even too big if non-Varium.. Giving it only once per battle would make the choices perhaps more wiser as you could not use it again. Perhaps slight change could be good as well. 80% is quite a lot, whether it's Assault or Heart Bot. About 65-70% would be better. Yes it isn't a lot less but they are Varium which is slight advantage. Lowering it by even that 10-15% is still improvement, with Borg in particular which can debuff Energy Shield/Matrix - there 10% with high Matrix is 3-4 Defence, more as we raise % taken away. Not much but it's 3-4 less damage taken per turn, and so on.

I still propose my idea of Static working like BL, and swapping SA for Assimilation. Less EP regained, doesn't favour one build like current Static does and Assimilation always helps a little; strategical purpose or to even get that few Energy back (must be trained first). Fact it's also not unblockable makes it even more fun as you cannot rely on it 100% of the time (Mages have the same).

BMs seem perfectly fine, except for Intimidation which will be changed and might improve the class. It's useless skill so any change, even slight for better, is better than nothing? :P

Mercs really need to lose Blood Shield and as said before, get some passive to boost their base damage (not all). That means they have pretty much no way to defend as Hybrid is split into 2 which doesn't seem good if there's no Tech raising skill (or Dex). TLMs have Mineral and Blood Shield which is better, so I'd argue on maybe removing Blood Shield, or making Field Medic working as a passive to improve damage. Change is due for it, suggestions are probably welcome! Won't move Intimidate, as above.

BHs seem perfectly balanced for me. Str BHs might be a danger but they can be countered with EMP/Assimilation or right build. Would say similar about TM but small buff wouldn't be bad. Not sure what kind of. Skills are fine, they work together in my opinion but it might seem weak. Unless I'm wrong, and it purely depends on your build. Lastly, TLMs seem balanced now as well, I see no big (or as big) threat from them which is good and they can be countered a lot easier now.



Rui.. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 14:37:25)

@archlord
blood mages have 3 skills that are improved with support. Intimidate, energy shield and reflex boost which gives back energy. Plus support lets a blood mage start the fight first plus the additional deflection. Blood mages have the best defence and offence skill set ever.
I would rather see a minimum requiremet of 45 tech to use fireball. Blood mages are the best class to play. I rather play a blood mage to a cyber or a tact merc.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 14:43:51)

@Rui
Best? Only because it improves with Support?
TMs - Support + Dex = great Matrix (Def), great Technican (Res) and Dex gives you also additional defence. Along with Support, you go first too! No defence is not the best. Fireball needs Str, Cannon needs Tech IIRC (correct if not) and other skills depend (I seen BMs using DA which is fun probably). They are glass cannons - deal high damage but also receive a lot of it.
Btw, enforcing requirements does not really help to balance a class. More like trying to destroy it even further.
Besides, Intimidate currently sucks and has very little use. :3

@below
Seriously my bad, I thought it was just your observation and it didn't seem right... .___________.'



Rui.. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 15:03:18)

Trans my post was directed towards archlord. Most of the blood mages complaining are ones with sucky gear or no enchants. Blood mage is amazing with the best items with max enchant. I have beaten so many awesome players but when i see a blood mage i get goose bumps. Have you fought a guy called Prophet ? I recon he is the best blood mage i have ever fought. Only thing that could probably beat him is the new bot. Else his build is just awesome. So yeah blood mages need some kind of a stat requirement to their skills.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 15:16:18)

so yea who's Idea what is to make that new Bot special unblockable??
biggest bullock I've ever seen given to a Bot



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 21:09:33)

Ashari, the Blood Mage may do well in 1vs1 but I am looking at all battle modes because do we not have 2vs1, and 2vs2.
In 2vs2 and 2vs1 energy regain is very viable as well as energy drain and you can put in a more effective debuff then Intimidation I felt sorry for the merc class and would have never thought they would dare give an ineffective debuff to a new class but I misjudged the programmers thought process. With the tact merc/cyber hunter having a passive energy/physical armor on top of high dex or tech with the regular armor, the Blood mage have to have high strength or high tech to get 40+ damage to make the pitiful 23% at max health regain make a difference. To make super charge have good damage that means you will have to have low tech and strength but then they could lower your dex making you an easier target for even the simple strikes as well as taking away all you energy or one player takes away half the other takes away half, you use an energy booster then the next round they take away your energy again, so tell me the Blood mage with all its skills using high energy to be effective don't need energy regain.

The Blood Mages have to choose which armor to use and if you choose energy then you get destroyed with physical if they
choose physical they get destroyed with energy where as the tact mercs and cyber hunters don't have to make that choice now.
What the staff needs to look at is how the Blood Mages are doing against tact mercs/cyber hunters of level 30 and above. Because of the Blood Mages lack of blocking at any level dex and able to get easily stunned, I was taken out by two level 30 players, a merc and a bounty hunter, that should not happen.

Because the Blood Mage has no way to affect the Bot we loose because of that especially if we get malfunctioned or smoked.

How can there be offensive capabilities if the damage is less than 40 to many times I only got 15 damage with the stun Blaster
on players with low resistance?

The players that play the Blood Mages don't want the same generic setup we want original and unlinked skills that are effective.
Like a combined health and energy regain since we don't get back that much from health regain to make a difference. A debuff
skill whether or not increases damage when used seeks out the stat with the highest points and puts the larger debuff on it
as well as a slight debuff on other skills. How about making fireball ignore a percentage of defense.

In a 2vs2 match I was blocked 4 out of 4 times that is 100% blocking by a Hunter not sure which one and because of that I had no health return while they got 30 damage each time and with no energy regain how can a Blood mage survive in long battles.

Ashari, this is a challenge to you since you are a tech mage have no points on reroute, no points on malfunction go into 2vs2, and tell us how well you do with against the same levels, handicap yourself and you will experience what the Blood Mages are facing. Yes, the new classes where not to replace the old but are supposed to be an evolved version of the old so how can the Blood Mage be an evolved version if they have too many skills from the old classes?

There are too many weaknesses in the Blood Mage class and Titan and the staff knows this but when will this be rectified?

greenrain13, how much is energy is regained from Assimilation at max if not blocked compared to static charge? If a Cyber hunter like you have defense at 29-35 resistance at 26-32 with Plasma armor on max and a +9 defense armor high level malfuntion you really can't find the weakness as a blood Mage and as they could lower the Blood mage Tech, what does tech improve, bot and yes what you considered overpowered, Plasma cannon, that is only see damage above 40 on players with low tech, and no energy armor, let me repeat,on players with low tech, and no energy armor. It would be considered over powered on the same level player with good tech, Plasma armor or energy armor getting 50+ damage same thing with fireball. A high strength
Blood mage can be quickly taken out and berzerker the second most Blocked skill in the game but you can really tie it with Assimilation as I have not blocked cheap shot yet and massacre is an unblockable skill so saying the Blood mage is a strength based class based on two skills when the Blood mage has the same amount of offensive skills that improves with dex and tech so the Blood Mage is a strength, Dex, and tech class

Rui.., you say I fail at being a Blood Mage I have taken down many tact mercs and Cyber Hunters in 2vs2, look at my character page, and see my rank and soon I will be at 5000 2vs2 wins and also support does not decide who goes first because for one when I increased my strength I either went first or second in 2vs2. When I decreased my strength I went last. That player you mention with high strength and max fireball will last 2 rounds maybe three or lucky to last four, a max EMP can take away 40+ points of energy I seen it take away 47 so if one takes away 47 then another takes away 29 there goes that skill and with no energy regain no way to heal, a booster 25 points they take away 30, that is 5 points less than before the booster. So if you or anyone else wants to down grade me as a player trying to tell me I don't know what I am doing let us see the character pages and do a comparison. How much energy does Reflex Boost give back, everyone, only he needs to answer that, and tells us if that amount is viable enough for a heavily energy based skill class? Calling for requirements on the Blood Mages you just want to limit the power they have even further because you can't beat them. Play in 2vs2 awhile against 2 cyber hunters or tact mercs and tell us how it goes and ask those two players you mention to join you in 2vs2 against the same scenario and see how long they last with their builds especially if they have low defense or resistance.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 22:15:12)

@Hun King,

Why would a CH buy physical armour when you can have good dexterity for all uses of the primary weapon? Tanking with lower dexterity is the end of CH players, perfection with weapon accuracy is where its at. And yes, BM is if not to you a strength class. Fireball, berzerker, sidearms, that's all I've really seen from you creative players... so thanks for reminding me of that repetitive pattern. Blood lust judges one thing in a class. Whoever has it eventually falls into repetitious antics. There is no more to see than striking and sidearm from these players. Skills are always used for the "all-out attack", the moment when a BM decides to use their energy for something creative... example plasma cannon or fireball upon rage...

That class like BH is just strength abuse with even more OP attacks (fireball) yet without removing any defenses.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/31/2012 0:14:16)

greenrain13,

Using those two skills at rage is great for 1vs1 but in 2vs2 or 2vs1 a Blood Mage has to get rid of one player as quickly as possible so if a Blood Mage has a partner that has malfunction or smoke then that partner needs to use it. In a recent 2vs2 match I had a Level 34 tech mage with level 8 malfunction, I went first hit the tact merc with eggzooka saving my energy based attacks for malfunction, then the tact merc smoked me, instead of malfunctioning the tact merc the Tech mage put defense matrix on me but decided to malfunction him just before he dies and to show him how much damage I could of gotten with plasma cannon if he would have malfunctioned in the beginning I got 47 critical damage, that was with 28-34 +1 tech and max plasma cannon. With 20% ignoring resistance and the tact merc having level 8 malfunction it should have been more in the upper 50's.

So unless the opponent has low defense or resistance malfunctioned or smoked a Blood would not see that much power. One time I had on energy armor with 30-36 +9 +1 resistance and the Blood Mage had 30-36 +1 resistance shot me with the max Plasma Cannon they only got 25 damage, and just imagined if that player was malfunctioned the damage would have been less. That is to show that with the opponent having high defense or resistance without an effective debuff and good defense and resistance the Blood Mage have to struggle for the victory.

Getting data from the 2vs2 and 2vs1 battles will be a lot harder for the staff then they realize to base how to balance those battle modes out, what they need to do, all of them even Titan himself need to go into those two battle modes try out different builds, different combos of skills, different combos of high and low stats, and then they can see for themselves the true weaknesses and strengths of each class. Try a high strength Blood Mage in 2vs2 and see how long they last. Will they do that, most likely not.

With the variation of damage, blocks, stuns it is impossible to obtain balance by looking at the data alone



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/31/2012 0:31:13)

@Hun It's called Fireball and it can easily get into the 70's range for damage if you have the right weapons for strength boosts. Like you said, kill one guy fast. If you think Fireball<Plasma Cannon in terms of speed then you would be wrong. Very few people ever use Intimidate. Lots of people use Malf and Smokescreen. Tell me which stat gets affected most by the average build in 2vs2? Hint: It's not Fireball. Get a TLM or BH on your side and you get a lot of damage from Fireball.



Yo son -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/31/2012 2:34:02)

why do you guys even try?



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/31/2012 5:23:27)

The ND Mallet Guy, really I thought it was a round red thing coming out of the staff not a sword. You can have all the right equipment on the same Level Cyber Hunter that has 32-39 + 9 +1 you will not get 70 damage even if they are smoked. In 2vs2 match a Blood Mage that have a high strength build low defense/resistance build is easily destroyed an if yu go first then guess what you either use it or take a chance and wait until the tact merc or bounty Hunter smokes them by then two good EMPs are used on you that say take away just to be even 29 points each so that is 58 total energy lost, at max you need 33 so after they take your energy only thing that has any once of power with a high strength build, the side arm, does they sidearm have a cool down, yes, it does. Now, you are left with regular strikes, are they blocked, more often for a high strength build for the Blood Mage. What is left, Aux/bot both are low damage for that build and the bot can be blocked.

So if you are a Blood Mage try the high strength red round thing a-ma-bob build in a 2vs2 see how long you last.



Arcanis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/31/2012 5:54:01)

From Sparty:
quote:

...mythical balance tracker...


I'm not sure should I be more worried by your use of word "mythical" or their use of balance.Seems they are synonyms ATM.
Maybe rename it into imbalance as that is the thing it should track. [8D]



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/31/2012 6:34:01)

The devs do not care about 2v2 players because there are not many people playing 2v2 less people= less money= no need to bother bout 2v2 balance till 1v1 is super balance. yes i do notice that blood mages are easy to kill in 2v2(except at low lvls because at low lvls everything is so balance imho) a simple emp can well disrupt their game play. mercs also face the same problem but at least they have a energy drain which usable. Mercs are just a little better than blood mage because they can tank. most blood mages are easy to kill in 2v2 and to make thing worse a bm getting a super noob partner which does not know wat to do or your partner does a magical act of disappearing into thin air. Noobs are common in 2v2 and most blood mage as depended on their partners. while tlm/ch can handle having a noob partner blood mage cant because they are not designed for 2v2. so i totally agree with hun and arch. blood mages are weak in 2v2 the % wins they get depends on their partners and the enemies they get.



Arcanis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/1/2012 12:20:40)

Ugh,I just saw in bugs section (as an explanation for possible bug) that lv difference in 2v2 is now up to +/- 6. Wasn't the original plan to reduce it to +/- 3?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/1/2012 18:45:24)

This is from the STR thread:

Here was my suggestion:

quote:

I have a feeling that Striking or Sidearms (but hopefully Striking) will be nerf'd soon.

My suggestion towards Striking is a gradual decline in power. For each successive blow using Strike, the user's Strike damage declines by 12.5% (with rounding up). It restores once the chain has been broken by either using a different move the next turn or missing a turn altogether.

There is a limit however to the decline. It should NOT fall below 50% in case Striking is the only thing a player wanted to do.


quote:

Even if you have 100 more dex than your oponent, he can block you twice and hit all of his strikes.


^

If blocked, the condition will not be declared. Therefore there is no nerf to Strike. To the second part of that quote: If he hits with all of his Strikes successively (in a series), wouldn't that mean he is being nerf'd more than you so then you will advance further?

quote:

Also BM will be OP if that happen since they don't use strike much (Gun+Fireball)


^

If they don't use Strike much, does that not mean they are already OP? Since, if it is a strength class, Strike would be one of their main weapons, no? So if they are not using Strike on a regular frequency, they are destroying their opponents quickly with their "gun and fireball" without resorting to their Primary weapon.

quote:

That is a horrible idea. Everyone will just be hittin 3s all the time forcing everyone to resort to Tank builds or just unblockables. Honestly STR builds are strong but not so OPed that something like that should be added. STR builds where already nerfed badly. STR BH/TLM is not nearly as strong with the Mass and Maul nerf/replacement.


^

Thanks for rating my post [8|]. I remember my teachers saying to me that there are no stupid questions and that there are no dumb ideas. Would you mind eggs-planing to me why players would be hitting a 3 every time? The damage nerf would only affect Strikes (although it could include the instance of when a skill using the Primary is activated). The damage nerf would only affect Strikes when a player uses them in succession. I fail to see how STR builds have been badly nerf'd if most enemies in battle use STR builds? Is it the nerf where SUP users switched to STR? Oh wait...



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