RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (Full Version)

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Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/28/2012 21:22:00)

When focus was introduced, it was used as a bonus for players who tried to play balanced. Not only were they rewarded with extra dmg, but also the benefit of the bot power.

At that time, the cap was only 30/31 and only 3 classes with no/low enhancements, now it is 34 on the verge of 35. Focus, at this stage of the game, is compression, and as long at the game continues to evolve, this standard will pose more problems.

I think if focus and agility were removed and bots/skill features had their own stat placement, the game will change for more possible diversity.


Reading Archlord Raistlin post, what made the evolved classes unique... That is the amalgamation of the three classes. Each of the original three had areas where there were strengths and also defined weaknesses. With both CH and TacMercs, both classes are able to play forward and backwards, and that is why these classes are most used now. What is also unique about these classes, and once upon a time too for Original Mercenary, they all have a passive armor. Both classes take full advantage of this by stat stacking, and with both Reroute/Frenzy and the mirror CH version Static Charge, both classes can continuely recharge.
The original three cannot compete with these types of skill sets.

What makes Blood Mage unique compared to the other two evolved classes is that class has a defined weakness and that is energy subtraction/addition. This class is more balanced with the original three over the two others.





Remorse -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 0:19:51)

Belive it or not I belive it is enhacements and Bonus extra stats that actuly consitict variety, doesnt make sence in theory but when you look at the battlefield,

All you see are the same constant power builds,

WHY? they are effective and easy to use capable of taking almost anyone and any startegy down simply by starting.

What makes them likable is they are also the most effective at killing the same type of build,
I belive the best way to beat a STR spammer without luck is to be a STR spammer aswell, Hence the rising population, and restriction on varity.


If Bots were to be give stats I would hope that they are given NO enhacemnts, and Infact I hope the game deceids at takling this problem by changing enahcments, Which means that the will be able to remove agailty and stat diminishing and In turn slow the rise of the Power builds, making them beatable or less easy to use which will mean the population will drop and hopefully you wont have to join them to beat them and then varity should dramatically rise, similar to a standard in beta, Did you see constant STR spammers in beta ? NO, And if you did come across one they were easily tacken down with startegy rather then requiing to start and hope for blocks.



drinde -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 0:35:48)

Right, so Assault Bot is mainly used for Stat Abusors, while Gamma is for Focus Builds.

So I suggest adding Requirements to them. >:)

Assault Bot: 40 Support

OR

Maybe give each robot a set level of Focus?

As in: To use a HeartBorg, you need 3 Focus.

OR

Give each Bot a Focus Requirement for the Special only.



Remorse -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 0:47:09)

^

I beive requiments never solve anything in the long run,
With enahcments requiments are practically useless, players have proven time and time agian that the can sustain almost the exact same build while taking into account of new requiments.

I Like the idea of making specials less effective if you have less focus.

But then agian with enhacments and high requiments nothing will change untill its at the point where there are STR spamming 5 focus builds, and they will most likly dominate to the same amount as STR builds do now.
That is my veiw of the long run.

All leading to a need to change enahcments for the better if his game.

Extarct from another one of my posts:
quote:

I can link many ED's problems back to this terriable unecesary feature, I really Hope it's changed.

Some bad follow ups of enhacments I belive are:
-High equipemnt requiments
-High skill requiments and new skill requiments
-Agilaity
-Diminishing returns
-Brainless Oped copy builds
-Extreme costs (practically doubling the cost of the game)
-Variety restricition.(due to enahcment enforced oped builds forcong you to join them or be beatin)
-Wepon restricitions (forces us to use bare minimum of wepons due to the extreme costs)
- Worsen var,non var gap.
-many many more!

The only three usual vaiable rasoning for enhacments are:
- Improve rares (How pointless is this? One you can simply improve rares by giving them a few extra stats in the first place. Two improving rares has been proven to lower balance.)
- Stat freedom ( proberly the only vaible agrument BUT can easily be sustained in a change in enhcements without the above disadvanatges)
- Support the game with Income.( But at what cost? Enhacments has led the game to be practically pay to play in a sence it is impractical to say this feature is fully open to non varims plus feature like these should only be allowed if it benefits the players more then disadvanatges them so in this sence enhacments should be changed)

Thanks for Reading, Remorse Less.



goldslayer1 -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 4:10:35)

Dear ED
spend less time nerfing support and more time nerfing blocks.



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 8:00:36)

Dear goldslayer1,
Support isn't going to be nerfed, while losing deflection - its other skills will be improved to bring it on par.



goldslayer1 -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 8:03:22)

@trans
thats STILL nerfing support.
support is the underpowered stat atm (due to field medic nerf)
then they put things like curse (delta weps)
and now this.



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 8:10:54)

Think logically - how does Support work with deflection? Should've been Tech since beggining, and literally everyone will gain on the change due to requirements on weapons and skills + Res. Everyone have it at a decent level, unlike Support.
Underpowered? That's why it'll be boosted when Deflection is gone, so it works out slightly better. Change isn't even live, you know NO details how Tech will affect Deflection (numbers) or how Support will be improved. And I'm happy Medic got nerfed, I'm Support TM and at L5 - I get +44 HP heal, which is about 6-8 less than before the change but I can still Tank and not waste points in Reroute or Malf to get +1-2 more (which isn't worth it). Besides before the change, I could go Support + near-maxed Heal Tank and heal what, 80 HP at least? Field Medic is still decent, it actually requires you to invest in it to make it better, not go Support build and heal a lot more at L1.
What do Delta weapons have to do with it? -20 Support? Then why is Malf and Smoke there? It's like even -50 Dex/Tech! OP OP OP OP!!!...



TurkishIncubus -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 8:52:01)

The most logical Merc buff:

Change Field Commander to passive. The skill is completely useless.

Why its useless:
Lets imagine Field Commander gived you +33 str at max and you got base dmg 22-27+34. ok now think you used field commander which will decrease 20 energy + You will lose 1 turn and what you gain? +33 str will give you +5 dmg in 4 turn it will do +20 dmg but you lost 1 turn from using it so if you striked instead of using Field commander probably you will do average 18-20 dmg. SO you spent 20 energy only to get 3-5 dmg if you are lucky :/

My suggestion is to make Field commander a usefull skill which is making it passive. It will still improve with support, so this skill will be the only passive that improves with stat.

If you leave field commander as it is now than any one who use it is simply noob :/ cause they lose 20 energy for nothing.

Wiseman told they will add a new passive, he said they will add deadly aim for aux but is +8-10 dmg in 3 turns will make any difference ??? I belive passive field commander will be better way to buff Merc class. Maybe the only way.



goldslayer1 -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 9:00:20)

@trans
a nerf is a nerf dont try to sugarcoat it.

@turk
sounds interesting.

i must point out that merc is the only class that cant regain energy.
and has no dex based skills.




theholyfighter -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 9:14:37)

It's "Fairness" is truely waaay off...
Mostly is because of some oftenly happening battle issues.......
And, I'm still talking about Juggernaut...
Really, the opponents are too unusually criticaling and blocking...as well as RAGEing (in 2~3 rounds)




Calogero -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 9:33:03)

@ TheHolyfighter

The Criticals and Blocking... yea well that problem exists outside of Juggernaut aswell

The Raging is normal, They are lower level and do a lot less damage than someone of a higher level.



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 9:44:53)

@goldslayer1
So? Your point is? Buffing whole game wouldn't please you either, as it'd require re-balancing everything (you'd do too much damage, and wouldn't be able to lessen it). I don't see where your problem is, everyone will gain on the change yet you moan about it? Give me some data that will prove the change will be for worse and will destroy builds. Just so you know, Support builds also go for a bit more of a Tank build as well, so they have decent Tech - they will have ~same deflection as if it was Support.
Also there was delay to the change, perhaps they got better idea how to make it better (Tech and Support)? Don't try to flame the change before it's even out and you don't know how it will turn out - if it's for worse, Balance Tracker will show it and they will get more info on it. Besides the Tracker already gave some info on classes and their power, CH doing too well obviously and 2 other classes falling a bit behind - still don't believe it might be better?
You say Support is underpowered because of Medic being gone (not affected by Support) - funny thing is, as Support build I can counter CHs pretty well, most of TLMs and some of Str builds. I am Support TM, my Support is about 100 and Tech is about 75ish. It also affect Crits, which I do get quite a lot with that support and it gives me a big edge when fighting players stronger than me. (This is called data, I gave example of mine as TM and what I get from Support. Can you please back up your opinions too? It'd be more fair. Oh wait, you have no info yet how Tech + deflection will exactly work, nor how Support will be improved)

Unless you can give me data that will prove moving deflection to Tech, from Support, is wrong and will be for worse - your point is biased and doesn't bring anything new (or simply, invalid).



theholyfighter -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:00:50)

Its frequency is waaaaaay beyond your imagination...



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:09:49)

@theholyfighter
Good for you, if you could read my post carefully I said the same thing.



Stabilis -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:20:48)

^ Good thing for you is that I think theholyfighter was commenting @andy123 and not your post Trans. [8D]



goldslayer1 -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:23:34)

@trans
point is
ur giving luck factors to a a defensive stat.

for the average 58 tech it might not be such a different.
but for the 5 focus super tanks CH and TLM
which go for 30-36 defense +12 (or +9 if ur CH)
and 30-36 +12 (+9 if ur tlm)

they will have super tanking, they will be deflecting most of ur unblockables.
and both have heal loop ability.
but it gets worse, CH can lower ur tech.
and tlm can lower ur dex.
while they deflect ur unblockables
blockabkles aren't an option because of their high dex and ur low dex from smoke.
secondly, they both have poison.
allowing them to tank and deal massive damage as focus.



Goony -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:24:25)

@Trans, this is a tough one to discuss. At the moment there are no skills that can modify support so that means the deflection rate cannot be adjusted (other than the 10% chance when using a normal strike with a weapon that has curse effect) once the game starts. If and when they switch it to technology then malfunction and technician will be able to effect the chance to deflect.

Dex CH already has a decent advantage with plasma armor (the best passive armor in the game) and Tech Mages will be able to effect the chance two ways (although BH has 3 ways to effect blocks - Shadow Arts, smoke and reflex)

Bit on the nose when it will give the most powerful class in the game another advantage and in my opinion as a mercenary we are a long way behind. So, does balancing the statistics take precedence over class balance. Because that's been happening for a while now with the balance updates to the detriment of some classes.

@Turkish, I suggested making FC a passive some time ago, but that means that mercenaries will have no buff at all and it is good to use in 2v2 and for world records. I'd actually like to improve the mercenaries chance to strike and the intimidate debuff 1st and then review field commander. If mercenaries could reduce incoming damage and hit more reliably the outcomes would be a lot better.



theholyfighter -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:29:25)

ok... to "balance" it out i'l comment something on Trans' post...

quote:

2 other classes falling a bit behind


Blood Mage is a LOT better than b4...and Tacticals... they're not weaker than Cybers since Cybers can't regain health other than healing.



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:35:25)

@goldslayer1
Thankyou, that's all I asked for - data to back up your point. It seems a lot easier to understand what you mean, if you include the data. And it'll help other players to actually evaluate on your point. ^^

@theholyfighter
I didn't say it's BM either. Ashari has said what these 2 classes were, but I cannot provide you with a quote as previous DNs thread got deleted.. I can remember clearly it was Merc, and probably TMs. BMs are quite good, won't lie, as they prove a threat with Str build which is actually quite fun as my TM has some fun. Tacticals seem fairly balanced now, I can beat them most of the time but tend to lose as well - just like it should be. But they are slightly weaker than CHs, due to their infinite heal/massacre loop (that is for now, it will get changed).

@Goony
You have a point there, I did think about it before posting here but this is mainly issue with CHs which are doing too good, as said by Ashari and proved by Balance Tracker, and they will get changed. If it wasn't for CHs, would it be better or not?



theholyfighter -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:46:06)

Hope not, since changed from Blood to Cyber.



goldslayer1 -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:47:50)

quote:

@goldslayer1
Thankyou, that's all I asked for - data to back up your point. It seems a lot easier to understand what you mean, if you include the data. And it'll help other players to actually evaluate on your point. ^^

i do explain and give data every time.
i just didn't thing i have to explain it and give info to someone i thought was experienced.



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 10:51:49)

@theholyfighter
I don't like how CHs dominate most of ED, just like TLMs were. Surely you're happy from that, but it's mainly class jumpers who will moan - rest of us players will be happy from the change and it will happen. More like a fact here, and we have enough of reasons of why this should happen + data from Tracker.

@gold
Thing is, you're against the change and I'm for the change. 2 different opinions, and I see people gaining on the change, most of them unless you have really low Tech, not just CHs getting even more OP'ed than they are now - they are subject to change.



theholyfighter -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 11:07:44)

I believe the Cybers who dominate ED are varium players...
Plus the tracker is only dependable when a class has a decent amount of players...



Goony -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 11:09:49)

quote:

If it wasn't for CHs, would it be better or not?


Of course it would, the community has been asking for the randoms that are aligned to the statistics to be balanced since late beta.

Support has been nerfed a bit already thou, reduced critical def/res ignore %, removal of field medic improve and some of the skills that improve with support have been adjusted to reduce the support advantages. Currently I would say that dexterity is the most abused statistic and the adjustments to balance have impacted heavily on mercenaries. The class used to have some advantages to offset the fact that they have no regenerative skills. But now they really have nothing since the buffs and debuffs are useless and the only way to counter debuffs is to use the assault bot. Most of the skills in the mercenary tree are dependent on striking and require considerable energy to be effective against these mega tanks.

CH ignore defence on static charge is simply wrong, ever seen what happens when you intimidate a CH and they use static charge. They might get 1 energy less. I think I said to Santa ClawZz the other day it's useless trying to battle as a mercenary in 1v1 and I may as well give up trying until they do something...



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