RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 11:19:19)

@theholyfighter
Tracker counts every single fight done in ED since its release, and most likely separated in different ranges for more accurate info about Lvl ranges + power.

@Goony
So problem with changing deflection to Tech mostly, not fully, lies in power of CHs for now. This will be gone as soon as they are tweaked and balanced.
Yes, I seen Support's nerfs in the past but they are still playable and decent. 3/4 of my chars are Support build, and it has ups and downs. But when deflection is gone, it will be improved slightly + when CHs are brought to justice, it'll be even better! Dexterity is abused quite a lot and still, mainly by CHs again who get most out of it. Good idea, as suggested by greenrain, would be letting Str affecting just primary weapon, while Dex could take care of Guns - then Str builds could not get unblockable + Static in one stat but actually drop it down to get something from it & count Malf in, they would need at least some Support.
Mercs will be changed too, Wiseman said something about them giving a passive but unsure what type of. Turkish suggested one above, so we as a community can suggest it and they can implement it - changes are mainly decided by us, community.
Finally, Static Charge is mainly the problem for CHs which I spoke with Wiseman when CHs received Plasma and it was said quite a lot in previous topics. Good way would be making it work like BL, it'd favour all builds not just Str. Tanks would still tank, but their damage output would make it a bit longer to get Energy back.



Goony -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 11:40:41)

Making static work like BL would give CH 3 passives, Xendran suggested this in the previous balance thread. His idea was to swap Shadow Arts with technician. That doesn't sound to good now if they are going to move deflection to technology.

Personally I'd like static charge to be a mixture of blood shield and frenzy. Use health as the cost to do normal weapon damage and regain a percentage of damage done to energy pool. Make it blockable, but generate rage. In other words make it useless ;)

I don't know what the balance team thinks these days, but they certainly don't consult the general community through this thread. Seems exclusive, but hey I'm probably just grumpy because mercenaries are so weak in 1v1.



Stabilis -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 11:44:31)

quote:

Personally I'd like static charge to be a mixture of blood shield and frenzy. Use health as the cost to do normal weapon damage and regain a percentage of damage done to energy pool. Make it blockable, but generate rage. In other words make it useless ;)


[>:]

~a 4 month old Cyber Hunter



PivotalDisorder -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 12:03:54)

its ok Goony. for every good thing the balance team do, they completely undo with some of the most baffling updates imaginable.

here is some of the hilarious logic....

"Mercenaries are dominating 2v2 and are split in 1v1 with BHs so lets give them Reroute, Smoke Screen and a new healing skill,
launch them as a new class and I am sure that will fix balance, plus we promise we won't let this class dominate for 6+ months"

"We believe that Cyber Hunters are too weak so we are giving them a new passive armor skill with 43 tech requirement. That wasn't
the main reason both merc classes were/are overpowered. oh and just in case your tank build sucks, we are moving deflections to tech"

Now I know Wiseman is good at making builds, but are any of the other members of the balance team any good? I just don't understand
how they can be playing the game and then get balance so wrong. clearly the scalpel over sledgehammer approach isn't working.

all classes should have a def/res debuff and a passive armour, or no classes should have them. it is just ridiculous that their are skills
that allow players extra stat points to spend on their build. plus the armours completely stifle creativity because most raise them to max.

I'd give Cyber Hunters and Tech Mages Plasma Armor, Mercs and Blood Mages Hybrid Armour, Tactical Mercs and Bounty Hunters Mineral Armour.
then Mercs and Blood Mages need a debuff. if it is a new skill, their is the issue of debuff stacking,or maybe intimidate could also effect support.



Hun Kingq -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 12:07:10)

Since Assimilation does good damage that is why they did not want it to take alot of energy or give back alot but static charge does good damage as well but gives back 10 times the amount of energy.

Since static charge does good damage and gives back more energy either they need to lower the damage or make the energy return the same as Assimilation.

You will say static charge can be blocked so can Assimilation, Assimilation more so.

The block rate needs to be adjusted to balance things out because the hunter classes blocking as much as they do is neither fair or balanced.



Stabilis -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 12:18:59)

Eh, Hun King, static charge doesn't do good damage. It does Strike damage, dependent on the weapon and base strength number. Static charge returns more energy than assimilation because it doesn't affect the energy count of the target. Max assimilation has essentially the same energy change as max level static charge in total if strength is average (35-60). Why would you suggest that a max static charge only returns 6 energy. That's low, for the skill and for you. We know every time you post here you try to convince people to make mages (your favourite class) powerful. How is that a reason for anyone to take your advice as wisdom? That's just selfish and I can see right through you. Try again.

EDIT: And do you realize, that because of assimilation and static charge players feel the need to place many stats in dexterity? If not both skills fail.



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 12:42:03)

I feel kinda yes and no for passive Armors for all classes, or none. If they have passive Armor, they should have only one shield for opposite - Plasma Armor & Matrix. Seeing how TMs, BHs, and BMs don't have one we get both shields in return which is somewhat as good - BHs: Matrix and Energy shield which is good, TMs: Matrix and Technican makes it balanced as well, BMs: Just as previous two, Matrix and Energy Shield make it good.
CHs have Plasma and Matrix which is acceptable as you need high Tech for requirements and high Support or very high Matrix to use it effectively, TLMs have Mineral and Blood Shield which is "weaker" but they got Reroute. And lastly Mercs have Hybrid + Blood Shield which is a bit weak, you pay HP for Resistance and you have no way to get EP nor HP back.

Static Charge - it might not do good damage, but the Energy you get in return is a lot higher and useable again every 2 turns. Because they can regain a lot of EP at once, if they miss then they can tank until Static is available again. Dex builds will be less likely to miss, and Str builds will deal their usual high damage.
If Static was to work like BL, then SA should be gone as that's too many passives. In its place, they can get Assimilation just like TMs have Reroute + Assimilation and is working fine. While they can get that Energy back dealing damage (any, not just primary), Assimilation can help them but also give strategical edge against classes that rely on Energy a lot.

Mercs to make them stronger, and perhaps overlap the fact they get a bit spread out Res and Def from Hybrid and Blood Shield, Turkish had great idea to raise their damage by making Field a passive. That gives them 2 passives which is great, they can defend themselves and get better builds. Although it'd be quite in favour of Str builds a lot, but with no way to get Energy back passively (just boosters), it could balance out.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 12:49:02)

@Trans: ED Balance team confirmed that Field Commander and Intimidate are gonna be changed, and also blood shield might
be replaced by a new passive, for regular Mercs. your field commander idea is interestimg, but again, it would be a passive
that directly allows you more stat points. I hate those kind of skills, because they give major advantage when you have them.



Lord Machaar -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 13:21:28)

Actually i'm still "Protesting" for removing Deflection from support because this stat's effects most of them counting on "luck" or "chances" when you say chance of dealing a critical hit or start first or deflect the enemy attack ... I'm not gonna deal any of those every time or every turn it only depends on how much Support you had.



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 15:50:05)

@Lord
Quite ironic, but doesn't ED rely too much on luck already? We'll see details about the change in newest DNs sometime soon, because the change was postponed for a reason (further changes), you don't know what they include yet. And if we go by luck and chances description, Dex is the same - you block at low Dex, but find less blocking with high Dex which is purely luck.

@psibertus
Yeah, I heard about Field and Intimidate but Bloodshield is news to me. Perhaps passive along of Deadly Aim but different, would be good - heard Wiseman saying like to improve Aux damage or something.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 15:57:13)

Why does being good at making builds have anything to do with balance? Every surgical change the good builders have made to "fix" the balance has resulted in an obvious switch to some other kind of build, or has backfired. I wish I had a varium for every time I heard "all we need to do is..."

Face it...it's way out of control unless you're the beneficiary, since all the balance changes are based on what happens in 1v1. Look at 2v2...it's way out of hand...ppl run out of frustration or are completely ineffective against the tanks because of all the "balance fixes" based on varium builds in 1v1. PFFT...

The playing field is "TILTED" and until the dev's look at more than some level 34 varium "fix" this will continue to go downhill...



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 16:11:20)

Nice one there. (Y)
It's called Balance Tracker and it's showing some data already. CHs being a bit too strong and 2 other classes being a bit weaker overall. Rather than just flame the game, perhaps suggest something to change it or evaluate on it more?
About your first sentence - "making builds have anything to do with balance", show me any game, PvP perhaps or even normal RPG, where stats will not play any major role and you can still play properly, not struggle and keep up of course. You cannot run around ED with 400 HP, basic weapon and no stats (yes I fought with one player like that) - you can't practically block, 3 damage all the time (minimum), no way to defend, and you will simply lose. Surely there is 100% balance in that, build works great for 1-3% win rate (that's if players flee.. <_<).



goldslayer1 -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 16:22:49)

block monkeys are pretty aggravating.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 18:16:28)

block monkeys.....um lol ^^



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 22:29:53)

Nice one back... :)
Who's flaming the game? I've stuck with and supported this game as long as anyone... If you need a balance tracker to figure out that TLM and CH create unfair advantages in creating or playing builds compared to other classes, we are all in trouble. Day 1 of TLM, the ridiculous advantages were obvious. It's great that ED brought up the CH class to a level of parity with TLM, but the problem is THE REST OF US... And to say they are "a bit" too strong and we are "a bit" too weak is like saying fully enhanced varium and non-varium players are "about the same"...

Epic Duel is a game that at one time didn't allow one class to run over all the others, at least until the introduction of TLM. Sometimes you can get so close and so in depth into a problem, the obvious eludes you. If it takes a battle tracker to figure that out, so be it.

Everyone has contributed ideas trying to improve one thing or another and I do not begrudge the dev's having to sort through 1000 ideas. Once AGAIN, my suggestions include bringing EVERYONE up to at least some basic parity. What brought CH up to challenge TLM? ...a form of hybrid. No one is complaining that TLM and CH are unbalanced. Think about that a little... Give the rest of us 40 stat points, and if you don't trust the abusers, give us a form of hybrid that allows us to at least have some chance at similar defenses. Are we "a bit" weak when the avg TLM/CH has 10-15 more def/res points AND can attack for more damage?

Very simple...then make surgical changes to address the abusers.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/29/2012 23:53:52)

One thought on the battle tracker...

Won't the overall TLM/CH data generally show a lower win% simply because there are so many of them and they will have to fight each other often, which could go either way? I hope there is a way to figure out how merc, bh, tm and bm stack up against tlm/ch in both 1v1 and 2v2... without using a smoothed over average.

Now that would be interesting data...



Hun Kingq -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/30/2012 0:56:30)

greenrain13, I am a Blood Mage and if you forgot Blood Mages don't have Assimilation and static charge does good damage especially when a player is malfunctioned. If wanting something for the tech mage class to be balanced out with a similar skill from a new class being selfish then I guess I am being selfish for the tech mage class. To bring balance between the two skills then the energy return of Assimilation has to be increased. A cyber Hunter used static charge on a player and got 33 damage and in another match a Cyber Hunter used static charge on a player and killed them so don't try to convince people it does not do good damage if used right.

Something is truly wrong with the program, there is indication that there is not a single once of balance at all when I have my defense at 29-35 +9 +1 and a person strikes me with a physical weapon and gets 30 damage no blocks, gets 50+ damage without rage on physical aux, gets 40 plus damage with artillery strike or gets 47 damage with bunker buster, the code for the Blood Mage has to be looked at and possibly rewritten. Even with resistance ay 29-35 +1 there should be no way a player with an energy aux get 50 + damage without rage.

For the two new classes able to have power and defense and resistance and the Blood Mage can't have both this game is further from being balance then every before, maybe they should make the fireball ignore a percentage of defense since the Blood mage has no debuff to increase damage by decreasing a stat, that the Blood Mage has no energy return, or anyway to steal energy.

The main problem is that they concentrate more on balancing for 1vs1 then any other battle mode but this game is not just 1vs1 and need to work on balancing things out in all battle modes and I hope this tracking system is in effect so they could see that the Blood Mage needs to be revamp with new more effective skills.




Rui.. -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/30/2012 2:03:59)

i disagree with you on the cyber and static thing. Cyber the only class that have no high damage dealing unblockable skills. Moreover mages have reroute. The assimilation is a bonus.



Ranloth -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/30/2012 2:32:45)

@Archlord Raistlin
Why fight TLM vs CH only? It collects every single fight, and it doesn't show a class is simply OP'ed - do you think Team is so low that they wouldn't see it themselves?
I think it also shows skills that are mainly used that give you the advantage, Static mainly, and also tracker will help make better decisions on how to change skills to make it more balanced.
And it does sort out the data for every single fight and every single class, not just the ones used most often. So they see how Mercs do against TMs, BMs, etc and so on.

@Rui..
It's not like a lot of damage counts, you regain even more Energy than damage shown. With Str build, a lot of your HP is gone and CHs Energy is back to full. Or Dex builds, never miss, always block but deal less damage. And they do have high damage unblockable, it's Multi (if we don't count Mass). With Malf, Static and SA - it's almost as deadly as Mass loop. And remember, it improves with Dex so your CH opponent will Tank as well. :3



Ashari -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/30/2012 2:41:13)

@Hun Kingq: The tracker data so far has actually shown Blood Mages doing quite well. They rank closely with Tactical Mercs, which are still doing above average after their changes. Some of that is contributed by the underpowered Tech Mage and Mercenary classes, but Blood Mages in general do well at what their class can do. Every class doesn't need to have the same generic setup with a stun, energy drain, 2 shields, and so on, in order to be viable and Blood Mages are a great example of that. It probably has the most unique successful builds and while it does have some weakness, it more than makes up for them with its offensive capabilities.

As to your point Raistlin, the pitting of Tactical Mercs vs. Cyber Hunters doesn't skew the tracker. If those two classes are having a fair fight between themselves but a big advantage over the other classes, it's apparent they are doing better than expected. The tracker is just an extra tool that'll help us balance the game -- I'm not throwing all common sense out of the window. It's also still limited to just 1v1 at the moment. Getting useful data out of 2v2 and 2v1 battles is quite a bit trickier.



theholyfighter -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/30/2012 3:17:40)

I don't see why the starter classes needs balance......
If there is really a reason, I guess it's just for the Merc class.

For the upgraded classes,(yep we paid 50,000 credits or varium, of course it's reasonable for them to be better than starter classes)
Tacticals: OK Cybers: Energy Grenade should match up with stun grenade
Blood Mages: Maybe give them a new passive......
A rough idea: A weaker passive armor( maybe....umm adds 6 Defense/Resistance and changeable just like the older Hybrid Armor) but converts a %of damage taken(damage on ur passive armor)to a bonus damage on ur next attack.

Lvl 1~10 increases conversion %



Ashari -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/30/2012 3:48:09)

@theholyfighter: That's hardly the approach I want to take with original vs. evolved classes. There's already a very wide gap between non-Varium and Varium players that we're trying to control. Non-Variums have a hard time competing as it is, since it requires so much time to be properly equipped in comparison to Varium players. Making the evolved classes better than the original ones is just throwing another hurdle in the way. I can't expect a non-Varium to have to spend another 50,000 just to be able to compete.

The new classes were introduced to add some variety to the mix, not to replace the old ones. Making the original classes second-tier would just destroy that variety if everyone was forced to switch to BM, CH and TLM.



theholyfighter -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/30/2012 4:10:26)

Um... I'm nonvarium

Plus seen most players above lvl 32 one of the upgraded classes.



drinde -> RE: EpicDuel's "Fair" is way off... (1/30/2012 6:10:28)

Intimidate Workability* Buff?

LV1: -6% DMG
LV2: -7% DMG
LV3: -8%DMG
LV4: -9% DMG
LV5: -10% DMG
etc.

*Yes I created a word.

Field Commander Workability Buff:

LV1: Adds 1% Chance to begin First
LV2: Adds 2% Change to begin First
etc.

Any criticism?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/30/2012 7:03:25)

quote:

greenrain13, I am a Blood Mage and if you forgot Blood Mages don't have Assimilation and static charge does good damage especially when a player is malfunctioned. If wanting something for the tech mage class to be balanced out with a similar skill from a new class being selfish then I guess I am being selfish for the tech mage class. To bring balance between the two skills then the energy return of Assimilation has to be increased. A cyber Hunter used static charge on a player and got 33 damage and in another match a Cyber Hunter used static charge on a player and killed them so don't try to convince people it does not do good damage if used right.


Of course BM has no assimilation, and they will most likely never get it because assimilation is a strike skill and BM gains health upon dealing damage. Bounty hunter has one really weak attack skill using a Primary (cheapshot), and one powerful but expensive ultimate attack using a Primary (massacre). Why am I not seeing bounty hunters complain? Oh, because they have smokescreen and a variety of skills. That's no different from BM, the class itself has even more OP attacks to choose from, and giving them more than enough Strike skills to a strength class is ridiculous.

"Don't try to convince people that it (static charge) does not do good damage if used right"

??!!

How is that not relative to any skill for that matter? That is a totally generic comment and realizes little to no truths. If someone, theoretically speaking, ever did get 33 damage on a static charge, do you realize how high their strength would be? I've gone up to a minimum base strength range of 20 and gained 24 energy, that's 9 energy less energy than what you're talking about. That player if they ever existed, was lacking in either 1 of their 6 stats because of their massive strength and thus was not beat by you because you couldn't figure out their weakness. And now for your argument you throw in complaining to certify your answer, very nice.



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