RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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od -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 2:25:32)

^ although DS costs more, it is balanced with bludgeon because of it's super quick cooldown



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 2:35:17)

Whatever the situation is, Bludgeon is strong, i know that. DS is good as well, but the bludgeon allows a PHY damage so regardless of your weapon(PHY/EG) it will always be PHY damage. This allows more range of options for Mages to use. DS depends on your weapon, and it's a great skill, does a lot of damage either, the only difference is the damage % and the energy.

DS is 23% more damage.

Bludgeon is 28% more damage.

So in fact, DS is weaker, and less diverse in PHY and EG, yet it costs more than Bludgeon. And on the other hand, Bludgeon costs less energy by 5. That's quite unfair for Mercs and TLMs, but i am not saying any change or arguing here. I am only pointing out the fact and a bit of my thought about this situation, in total, considering 'fairness' in this game, DS energy requirement should be lowered down to 10 or 11. Bludgeon can stay the same, or get nerfed in what ever way the staff wants to.



Darkeroid -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 2:48:01)

^Bludgeon Is TMs only melee skill.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 2:48:05)

Nerf bludgeon? Seriously? LOL! Ummm...no lol. Fact is, bludgeon is a tactical skill (most of the time). You use it only for a last second rage pwnage, unlike DS, which is often spammed throughout battles. Oh and, did I mention that TM strength builds are almost unusable already?
@Goony
Bludgeon is the TM lifesaver (rage bludgeon), just like maul is to merc (last second stun=pwned). Hope you understand if I put it this way.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 3:31:45)

Putting in that way, 'TM's last second life saver', then I'll gladly accept it, but still the balance doesn't add up if DS is weaker, yet costs more energy, but then again, mercs kinda tops it up in their class against TMs, and say TMs have bludgeon has their only melee attack skill, they weren't made for melee focused attacks. Yet throughout most of the battles i have fought in, i have been bludgeoned a lot of times, and i dare say it is in fact a very useful skill at the very last minute as AQWPlayer had said. But looking at the bigger picture, bludgeon can stay the way it is, but then again as you look at DS, it's potentially weaker than bludgeon, so say lower the energy requirement of DS on 12 or 11?

I have also been a tech mage, and coming from me, a Cyber Hunter, bludgeon works very effectively against us during rage+bludgeon. I have been beaten by that skill a few times, and yes, it does make the battle more interesting, yet you say Mercs spam DS, they don't spam it like 3 times a battle, i have seen them do it 2 times, and 3 if that's their only skill left to use, but TMs soemtimes 'spam'(2-4 times) bludgeon on me as well. So you can't say that Mercs spam DS when TMs do it to bludgeon sometimes too. And i understand why due to the fact bludgeon is only 10 energy [:D].

Other than that, as a TMs only melee skill, we could leave it alone, and i have been reminded that Mages aren't for STR builds. But a few other problems i have seen in ED is DEF and RES effectiveness. I once had 30-36DEF, an enemy with 10-12+26 PHY weapon dealt around 7 or 8 damage to me O_O. Not saying 8 or 10 is a lot, but it doesn't add up. And as others have posted, they had really high DEF/RES and yet others still dealt quite a bit of damage to them.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 3:37:52)

^ No I don't understand, you just have to tap a tech mage and they have enough energy to bludgeon. I rarely have energy at that stage of the battle due to the fact that I've probably had to heal due to the supercharge or plasma bolt that just did 50+ damage and I know that there is either a rage sidearm or bludgeon coming that is going to do 40+ damage. It's really annoying that tech mages have 2 very powerful low energy cost attacks. Only way for a merc to beat these builds is some serious luck and even then I normally lose.

I don't understand why tech mages got a buff to plasma bolt and mercenaries get diddly squat. Since the start of delta Mercenaries have been the worst class to play and during that time have been on the receiving end of some changes that made it worse!

I also wish that people would stop confusing tactical mercenaries with mercenaries, there are 5 skills that are the same and there is no way that they should even get mentioned in the same discussion.

You guys just want free wins not balance... Meh, back in my box again, I should have known better than to try to discuss balance again!



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 3:39:34)

*knocks on Goony's box*
Hello OHAITHUR? Can you come coem out for a aut fo ey minute please pwease pl0x? We're iz not done discussing just juzz yet.
Edit: If you're not gonna come out, then I shall just go on with it (WITHOUT YOU!). So, mercenaries we're OP back in gamma along with BHs with their gamma bots. At that time, TM was being undermined, so now it's logical for us to rise first. GEDITBRUH?



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 3:44:34)

^ What's to discuss, I put my case forward, you trashed it because??? idk...This is a balance thread and from where I stand bludgeon is effecting the outcomes of battles too much!



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 3:49:22)

^
I trashed it? =.=
This kinda stuff happens hundreds of times daily in this balance thread so yea. You needa get used to it sometime. And if you say bludgeon affects battle too much, why don't you say that FIREBALL affects the outcome of a battle too much? If TMs are not supposed to use melee skills, then BMs are not supposed to use caster skills either.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 3:50:12)

^ lol, i sense sarcasm in that sentence. [:D]

@Goony:

1. I am not a Tech Mage
2. I DO NOT favor myself from free wins
3. I am not trying to do the best for my own sake
4. This is a discussion, not everything is solved in 4 posts.

Ok i think i have made my self clear in the above. Sure TMs is now shining all over ED with the 'nerf' of CH and TLM, well I say live with it, and since TM was weak to begin with, I am glad it now has its chance to shine. If TLM, CH had their tiem to shine, why can't mages. Bear in mind I am not a mage myself, but i have been one in one of my alts. The 'buff' to plasma bolt wasn't really a huge buff, taking away 4 energy pts won't hurt you. And the staff didn't intend for the HA split to be a nerf, you may consider that as a nerf, I am fine with that. And i have no idea what the 'Mercs aren't TLMs' discussion is about, so i won't take part in that. And yes, the SC TM build is quite hard to beat, but i have success through some of them, just try and experiment with builds and see if you can counter TMs, if not, i am sure Balance team would get down to it, hopefully in a 'good' way.

So the bludgeon discussion should end here, it will not be nerfed, and i am fine with that. You could increase DS % or decrease its EG requirement. All these we could discuss further, so i suggest you get out of that 'box' and let's get on with some more discussing! [:)]



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 3:54:23)

^
I think I see now why he says bludgeon is OP. However, IT IS NOT! nuff said. loljk. See, when bludgeon is not stacked with rage, it's nearly useless, with a measly 20 dmg or so. But when stacked WITH rage, it become 35-40 dmg, which *could* be considered OP.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 4:07:58)

@AQW, the blood mages don't have reroute and can be countered by a merc (who also don't have reroute or bloodlust for that matter).

Let's say a tech mage has 125-140 hp and 25% reroute, they will gain 30+ energy in a battle, more if they have a good heal, With malfunction, gun, aux and the amount of skills that can be used it is almost imposible to counter them... When there are people that say "yah it even because of the cooldown" well it's not. Mercenaries, quite simply, cannot continually spam skills because their energy is not limitless...

So when the discussion only focuses on the fact that I say bludgeon is too strong, the other factors are not being considered and that really get's up my nose. That's why discussing balance is pointless at times. I shouldn't have compared it with DS, ND Mallet bought that into the discussion and just proves how narrowminded some of the responses are...

quote:

with a measly 20 dmg or so

hahaa, I nearly fell off my chair laughing... 20 damage measly, you only need 4 more measly damages and amost mercs are dead... lmao...

quote:

Edit: If you're not gonna come out, then I shall just go on with it (WITHOUT YOU!). So, mercenaries we're OP back in gamma along with BHs with their gamma bots. At that time, TM was being undermined, so now it's logical for us to rise first. GEDITBRUH?

Merenaries OP, not to the extent of some of the other classes. I put up with 6+ months of heal looping tech mages abd the last 7+ months of tactical mercs and cyber hunters. Now we are going back to the end of beta again, so your logic has little substance and really not relevant to balnce being a rock, paper and sissors arrangement



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 4:23:37)

@Goony

Perhaps you should present a compilation of all factors which make you say that Bludgeon is OP. Currently it seems that your basic argument is that Bludgeon does too much damage -especially and perhaps exclusively when it is coupled with rage- for its low energy cost, and to a lesser extent that it is not the only low energy attack tech mages have, since their sidearm with Deadly Aim does considerable damage with no energy cost at all, again especially when that is coupled with rage.

Hence your latest statement illuminating the flaws of blood mages and mercenaries when compared to tech mages, while eschewing comparison between Double Strike and Bludgeon -two rather similar skills-, which would be perhaps the best way to determine whether Bludgeon is OP or not (referring to the comparison, not the eschewing of it). Balance is, after all, relative. Personally I can do at least 30 damage with a normal attack on rage; Bludgeon adding about 10 to that number is considerably, but not unfairly stronger.

Thus all you have done is to establish why Bludgeon is a strong skill, and rightly so. However you need to show why it is OP, and you have to compare it to something -in this case, Double Strike- to do so. Furthermore, an alternative explanation to your main problems with Bludgeon could be the inherent overpoweredness of low-energy percentage-based offensive skills, or of rage, or perhaps of the overall synergy of the tech mage class. Could you clarify all the premises to your argument?

Just another note: Mercenaries aren't the only class with Double Strike. Tactical Mercs have Reroute in addition to Double Strike and should be a major consideration in comparision between Double Strike and Bludgeon in the full contexts of their respective users.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 4:28:45)

quote:

hahaa, I nearly fell off my chair laughing... 20 damage measly, you only need 4 more measly damages and amost mercs are dead... lmao...

lol 8 turn cooldown plus 4 turn usage=12 turns. I can see a dead mage by then :/ and...LOLWUT...that's 40 energy in total O_O



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 4:37:17)

@Goony

I am sorry if i have provoked you or any of that sort. But what are u exactly trying to point out? Bludgeon is OP? Or balance discussions are just a piece of junk where nothing gets solved at all. ???

I need an exact POINT so we can work towards that, we can't do 2 or 3 things at once. If it's about the bludgeon thingy, we can try and convince you or vice-versa. If it's about balance discussions being totally useless, well we'll contact the staff[:D]

But right now the fact that TM is quite 'OP' doesn't mean we should complain. They'll nerfed sooner or later if that's the case. Yet still, Cybers were 'OP' for about 3 or 4 months. Then WABAEM! Tons of complaints and all that 'stuff' about us. We didn't do that buff, we didn't complain about others being buffed, we didn't whinge/wine/cry/shout about us Cybers almost being weakest in-game. What i have had with Cyber is not 99.99999% chance win. but i have had fun with it, which a lot of ED players misuse for being the most 'powerful-est' in-game. The day CHs' were nerfed from static, i checked chars and LB. BOOM. Everyone was either BM or TM. CH left in dust. But it wasn't completely destroyed. I am just emphasizing the situation at that time.

Other classes can get all the buff they want, but i just want to inform others of what 'fairness' in this game means. Okay, we can go back to our discussion now, and btw, if you think it's way to hard as a Merc. Change classes, not that hard. [:)]



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 4:38:37)

@AQW I rest my case as to why it's pointless discussing balance.

@Silver Sky, it's not a case of comparing skills as that just narrows the discussion. I would hope that the balance team has some idea about what I am talking about, but they won't give us the facts (balance tracker results) or the proper skill calculations.

@Arevero, wasn't you ;) I'm done with this thread, without facts or moderation it just becomes a playground for trolls...



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 4:46:53)

Goony don't feel left out or not being put into proper attention :) , we are all trying to help you, and if you lay down your case, i will not attempt to stop you, but yes, ED's term of 'balance' is currently quite out of hand, perhaps a way of having a better insight of our players' situation would be the balance team to bring more of their staff in and play along with us to experience our thoughts. All in all, that discussion we had was quite fun, i finally get to see a Merc's view of a TM. I'll keep your case and thoughts in mind, and i hope the Balance Team can make a great balance for ED, unlikely or not, just don't make it worse.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 5:31:22)

@Goony

Ah yes, that elusive thing, evidence...

With the balance tracker, the balance discussion thread's significance has decreased, though it is still considerable. I see the balance discussion thread's worth to be providing perspectives to analysing the massive amount of data the balance tracker has amassed, and providing suggestions to the problems identified by players and confirmed by the balance tracker, instead of providing the data in addition to perspectives and solutions. Without sufficient solid evidence, I can see why you deem this thread meaningless.

Nevertheless a large part of the balance tracker's worth comes from perspectives, so do be glad that your contribution and the considerable amount of responses it has inspired has provided a perhaps invaluable perspective to analyse the balance tracker's data. Your observations and theories are thus still of considerable worth; don't feel disheartened :)



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 8:33:57)

Nah Bludgeon is good as it is. The only different is the MP and damage. If people want to compare skills like that then I would love to compare Amour skills with other skills and then we shall see what is balanced.
Imo rage DS is as good as Bludgeon. The Energy type have both advantage and disadvantage you can't really compare them.

I can't see how TM is OP. BH is still as effective vs TM as ever, especially No Smoke EMP Mass build which is amazing. TLM smash TM with Toxic, a sick skill do 40+ damage and make RR useless. CH completely destroy TM with Maf (Casting play), Armor (anything Mage alike), high Dex (anything Melee), Healloop better than TM (no need to explain). Energy BM CRUSH TM badly, I can't even know where to start. The only class have hard time vs TM is Merc, which is slightly better with HA change, the Rage also might be helpful, it's possible to see STR build again maybe? However they gonna need to buff FC sooner or later
I'm not saying TM is UP either, just pointing out every classes have a lot of good counter to TM



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 9:18:34)

The thing is I can see balance from all class perspective:

Tech Mage - Skyhooks
Tactical Mercenary - Mental As Anything
Mercenary - G00NY
Cyber Hunter - Cold Chisel
Blood Mage - Crowded House

I have no doubt that bludgeon is working too well in conjunction with reroute. Sure, Tech Mages do have some problems beating Blood Mages and Cyber Hunters, but it can be done with a decent build and strategy.

The thing is Mercenaries are at the bottom of the classes at the moment and that is why I suggest balance updates in relation to that class. Basically, it's a free win to Tech Mages when they play Mercenaries, slightly more so than when Cyber Hunters and Tactical Mercenaries play Mercenaries.

Would it actually hurt Tech Mages to invest some points into bludgeon? Not really, if they wanted to use it as a skill then it should require some points to make it as effective as it currently is.

Yet, I can also understand that the Blood Mage strength builds in conjuction with bloodlust is also an issue, as are the tank builds of Cyber Hunters.

Since Mercenaries do not have the ability to regen health or energy, or an effective buff or debuff they have nothing but hybrid. EMP skills and debuffs wreak Mercenaries skills, so they are forced to use the assault bot and basically give away any chance to beat other classes to rage due to hybrid boosting rage.

What people like BlueKatz fail to mention is that Tech Mages also have some excellent counters to the other classes and in my opinion bludgeon is excessive...




BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 9:27:58)

Umm the only thing TM can do to counter other classes is Maf which Effect BH Smoke and Merc BB which are important. Assim can counter BH if he won't block or stupid enough not to put stat in EMP and BM which if they stupid enough to get as much MP for Zerker or Fireball and of course Merc. Stat buff skills suck especially after all those stupid nerf bot so it's not a solid counter anymore

Feel free to add any other counter to each classes as I hardly can come up with. Before all the Bot Counter is what TM do best but not it's just pain silly to do so. That's why every TM use SC now, don't have to think



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 9:42:02)

^ If Blood Mages or Bounty Hunters have azreal bot then they can't debuff malfunction (it will cost a BH valuable energy to cast energy shield), if you have a decent build as Tech Mage then you will have more support than them and in most cases these days you will have more dexterity. Now malf will add to your chance to deflect and your block chance will be higher as well as critical. If they don't hit or deflect then they don't get blood lust. I beat a lot of Blood Mages as a Tech Mage, but also have some heavy losses to them as well.

Can't win em all, which seems to be the current theme in balance, don't nerf our overpowered skills I want to win all my matches and certainly don't let mercenaries have a chance. That would be awful...



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 10:03:43)

BH still have smoke to block (even though my Dex is very high) as well as SA. BM have Reflex, a good skill that no one use.

BH is not hard. If they go first then it will be just painful. Since I don't play too much I'm 40 stats and few damage behind (spending a bit too much credit to retrain) so at most I will have equal Sup. Most BM and BH crit more than me with Weapon Passive anyways.

But Energy BM is just stupidly painful and it's my worse match up beside 45 Def CH which is impossible to hit. Cast Technical? Fireball, Gun deal 40 damage each that's 2 turn, 3rd turn I must heal so let say I have 60 HP then, they will just zerker or Fireball again (that stupid thing have 2 cooldown?!) and finish with Gun (again, 2 cooldown) the left over turn they can just Aux Physical, Heal or Reflex which is so painful, or Energy Shield if vs SC TM. If I use DM they just Hit hit hit zerker and that's 20 60 damage in first 2 turn. Then it's another loop like that. They don't even waste MP and that MP can be saved for another zerker (which! 2 turn cooldown). Use no Buff skill? He will hit 50-70 + whatever and I'm dead. In 3 turns TM can do only 15(maf)+40+40 and that's not even close to kill him with his BL passive. If luckily he gets 1 block you can SC him and get a win, but that is very close anyways since he can do 50+70+50 and that's dead for TM already so you must Heal, so your damage will be lowered by 40 then and at the end TM without MP can't beat BM at all.

CH is beatable without dealing with 5 blocks in 1 battle. And staff just make it worst by adding the +10% crit or something weapon, making a Tank class Crit like BB. I can't out Tank CH to Rage enough since everyone disagree that Rage is weak anyways.

What make me mad most is the fact that they remove counter ability of most classes, making this game so annoying to play. The only thing TM have now is Maf which is good vs 2 classes and Assim which is also good vs 2 same classes. lolz that doesn't make any sense



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 13:11:33)

Hmm, so currently it's Bludgeon fight about its power right?
It was brought before, Cheapshot and Double Strike. CS has lower EP cost, 25% chance to Crit and 10% defence ignore at Lvl 1 while DS had 25% more damage and higher Energy cost. 25% more damage > 10% defence ignore but we're counting in fact it costs less Energy and has 25% chance to Crit which isn't maybe fair. How it links in with Bludgeon?
If you give more power boost to Double Strike or some effect + lowered Energy cost, then Bludgeon will be fine. Currently it's Cheapshot > Bludgeon > Double Strike. All of them can miss, all but Bludgeon are Tier 1 skills. Tier 2 is Bludgeon so surely it can have more power, but it's also locked for Physical attack and has 4% more damage boost over Double Strike which is type-free; Energy or Physical.

Bludgeon has good synergy with Reroute, right? Lower EP cost of Double Strike then it should be fine, as if you compare DS to CS, then DS costs considerably more than CS at maxed Lvl - was it up to 10 Energy difference for damage boost while CS ignores even more defence + fixed 25% chance to crit? What else is there to say? Bludgeon isn't OP'ed in any way, it's DS' Energy cost which makes it sometimes not good enough to use effectively.


I've noticed Caster TM being OP'ed, well from this discussion here. I managed to actually fight one yesterday on my Lvl 29 Merc, and the Caster TM was Varium + Lvl 31. If I had Atom, I could've killed their skill (Plasma or Multi) as they casted it 3 times before I lost and their damage was pitiful, it didn't go past 10, not including the weapons so their weakness is Energy. Once you take it, it's basically a plain fight while using Atom/EMP/Assimilation at right moment. May I say, all classes but BM possess either of them. BM is glass-cannon so I guess that's why it doesn't have that kind of skill, although Assimilation would be good for them but not my case.
Won't disagree they are quite strong, but the key lies in Energy. Once you take it away, it's simple fight using Physical items as their Dex is low from what I've noticed across my other chars. If you don't have it then tough, it ain't balance issue as you decided to have Energy items.
I'm speaking from Mercenary perspective when I fought Caster TM, remember it was a Varium one as well, and I met a few on my Support TM, who's Lvl 33 and also Varium but I managed to get one hit of Assimilation right which takes off just 3 Energy but disabled their attack for one turn and managed to kill them.
From CHs point of view, got one at Lvl 27, I fought quite a few which aren't tough. May it be Plasma Armor though, EMP is really big help with them as it does ruin their strategy and cannot kill me as quick. It will work even without Plasma Armor as I have quite high Tech and E Armor.
And lastly TLM, I have Lvl 29 TLM semi-Varium, and somewhat Str-Support build who relies on Poison. I have 30ish Resistance so can lower down their damage, but once I use Poison on them, let them attack (I don't have Atom trained, no Club) and at 1/2 HP, I can heal thanks to my Reroute. That leaves them with no Energy or for one more attack + pitiful damage afterwards, and me with a bit over 1/2 of my HP which is usually in 50s area. So it's a simple fight after it.

Unfortunately, cannot say how BHs deal with it as I don't own one anymore but I guess EMP works there as well as Bloodlust. Just assuming so.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/12/2012 13:14:15)

^ Just gonna point this out,

Double strike has an amazingly low coold down of 1.

It compeltely justifies the slightly lower damge and slightly higher cost.


My opinion Cheap shot is Uped, mainly due to the fact it doesnt gain a big amount of extra damage when combined with rage like DS and bludgeon.



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